I don't buy the polls, or at least don't think the really reinforce the point.

The polls do a poor job of breaking out how much people really understand about the bill or the issue. While many say they support the bill, they also say they believe it will lead to increased discrimination of legal aliens and citizens.

Why would people support a bill they think will lead to more discrimination?

Because the polls are probably more reflective of the fact that people just want the government to do more, rather than specific endorsement for the more controversial elements of the AZ legislation.

-spence

If we wiped out illegal immigration with a magic wand, the interior of my house would instantly turn to squalor and I'd magically appear at Wal-Mart with a cart full of Top Job and Bounty Paper Towels.

this is Patrick Kennedy logic :rotf2:

LOL, it's amazing how we all agree if a poll is going our way, but if
it doesn't we say it's flawed.
Ya have to look at a group of polls and look at the trend to see
if they are pointing in one direction or the other.

Poland is a long way to go for an opinion :hs:

That the bill might lead to discrimination, or that people think it will, is not the test. As judge Bolton said, the Federal Government must demonstrate that the AZ law can never be applied in a constitutional fashion. The test cannot be met with hypothetical argument. (Of course, she contradicted her own directions and ruled on hypotheticals.) The fact is, almost any bill, or law can, and has led to accusations of discrimination. If the test for a law to exist is that it cannot potentially lead to "discrimination", a whole lot of ordinances have to be revoked.

The potential for a law to lead to discrimination does not necessarily lay in the law, but in its application by individual enforcers. The fault is usually not in the law, but in racially biased individuals. Rather than blaming and disavowing valuable law, when it is applied in a discriminatory fashion, the individual who misuses the law should be prosecuted--don't blame the law.

So it is not necessarily a contradiction if supporters of the AZ law think it might lead to discrimination but still support it.

Spence even CNN talking heads say 55 % of americans agree with the AZ law.

All Judge Bolton did was point out to Arizona lawmakers the three sections of the law that needs fine-tuning and the law would likely be enforceable. Ah, good old reasonable suspicion........................oops!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!! When an officer of the law has reason to believe that a crime is about to be committed or has been committed.

Hey, Spence, let me clear something out for you.

Yes, many Americans feel that there may be some potential increased discrimination but the majority of Americans recognize a few simple, easy to factor points:

1) If I am pulled over for potential illegal or suspicious activity I need to produce my identification - AND I WAS BORN here. Someone not here legally should not have a higher level of protection than those here legally.

2) People that are not citizens should go though proper LEGAL channels to become citizens. Ignoring the law when convenient is breaking the law.

3) There are more problems created by illegal citizens than legal citizens, be it law enforcement, costs and entitlements, taxes, etc.

Would love to type out more but going to bed.

Please give me three reasons why we are better off as we are now with porous borders?

AMEN ,JR.
As Americans we should be Proud to show we are citizens of the United States especially since our ancestors waited their turn to come here legally, studied and became citizens,adopted the US to be their home and called themselves Americans and worked to make a better life for their families. No handouts.

Showing ID is no different then showing your voting registration card in order to have the ,privlidge to vote.

funny that many of the same folks/groups that oppose the Arizona law also oppose any requirement to show an ID to vote....probably just a coincidence :uhuh:

You have to show identification, not prove you're a citizen or legal alien. I don't see any difference in protection. What's at issue is jurisdiction and the presumption of guilt.

Any why we already have Federal laws to deal with this issue.

That's not really the issue, it's about a State potentially usurping Federal law and the discrimination of legal citizens and legal aliens in doing so.

Again, that's not the point. The legal argument against the AZ law isn't that illegals are good for the country, I'd think only a very small minority would voice this opinion.

Although, you do seem to be proving the point I was trying to make.

That National support is based more on a desire for the Feds to do more rather than endorsement for the controversial elements of the bill.

-spence

In this case you have a target demographic that's pretty well defined and a law with the potential to impact the daily life of a very large number of legal citizens and non-citizens who appear to fit the profile.

I'd think the risk factor here is extremely high and more than a simple perhaps.

-spence

National support is based on a desire and the overwhelming approval of a State taking action when the Feds refuse to.....the "controversial elements" that you describe are only controversial in the minds of illegals and their enablers...:uhuh:

And we need to legally provide proper documentation (Birt certs, Passports, SS card, various ID cards,in order to get the proper identification that 97% of us will show to a law enforcement officer should we run a foul of the law.

We also need to use said identification when applying tax forms when taking a new job.

The laws that are conspicuously not being followed / enforced?

And the proponents of this bill would argue that the lack of the Federal guvmint's involvement / success in enforcing existing laws.


:rotf2: - I apologize, sometimes I have this habit of looking at this issue at the National as well as state aspect. I understand others ignore at the national level as well as the state level.

I do not see a problem with the state law that in its essence asks people to obey the law, and follow the law, or there will be the potential for consequences. As long as reasonable assurances for the respect for human rights can be maintained. This bill tries to put more teeth into fighting illegal immigration, not legal immigration.

I want more legal immigrants to come to this country and become Americans. Legal, pulling the same oar to help our kids get smarter, more entrepreneurial spirit, and to grow our nation, because that make sense and helps us to grow. Otherwise we become stagnant.

It's based on the Federal Government doing what it is supposed to do, rather than the Government doing a piss poor, less than half-hearted, job, and then rejecting help to do what it seems incapable of doing. Which controversial elements? What the Federal Government is doing and not doing, is extremely controversial.

Absolutely. There is an extremely high risk to illegal aliens.

What safegaurds do the SS administration have to keep this from happening?:smash::fury::wall:

If they can't afford a lawyer, tell them to bring up to the presses attention and get on Good Morning America or something and inform the country to wake the f$5# up!
:fury::smash::smash:

Just sneak in here illegally and Pregnant
and have an American Baby. :fury:

sure we'll Pay for everything .... no problem
after all it's an American :huh:

They tried to do all sorts of stuff. but she's still paying

Not according to the Federal judge, who believe the AZ law interferes with the Feds ability to set and enforce a consistent policy.

That you disagree with that issue doesn't make it wrong, it's just an interpretation. I'm sure the higher courts will be chiming in soon.

I would think a Conservative would argue that the solution is better Federal enforcement, rather than additional legislation that will increase the size of government through State mandates which also may burden local law enforcement.


Interfering with Federal priorities and could be construed as the same thing. If the Feds want to focus on drugs, and the local Sheriff is rounding up a hundred day workers to hand over to ICE, you might just have a resource issue.

So the answer again is to focus on more stringent Federal enforcement which Obama appears to be doing.

-spence

:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2:

you are too funny....:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2:

I'd have to note, you and my six year old have something in common. Neither of you really cares about the posts, but both love the emoticons :devil2: :hihi:

-spence

there you go again...Spence..your posts have been so chock full of detached from reality BS lately...it's hard to do anything but laugh...but I'm not the only one pointing this out...:uhuh::rotf2::rotf2:

I guess it is easier than thinking :lama:

-spence

when you continually stand common sense on it's head in the form of regurgitated progressive talking points...there's not a whole lot of thinking required on either of our parts...whether in your assertions or in my reponses...you spew...I laugh:rotf2:....you remind me of an article that I read recently about Paul Krugman and his apparent crack up to the point that colleagues and his ombudsman have had to back away pointing out the fact that he's so wed to Keynesian theory and progressive politics that he can't mutter a competent thought or accept reality....

For example, Robert Barro, the distinguished Harvard economist, noted that Krugman "just says whatever is convenient for his political argument. He doesn't behave like an economist." The New York Times ombudsman Daniel Okrent observed that Paul Krugman has "the disturbing habit of shaping, slicing and selectively citing numbers in a fashion that pleases his acolytes but leaves him open to substantive assaults." James Taranto at the Wall Street Journal, after listing the falsities in Krugman's latest piece on climate last week, hazarded that perhaps "Krugman makes himself ridiculous merely to make our job easy."


see...we could substitute Spence for Krugman...:uhuh: most experts would agree :uhuh:

Who?

-spence

ON THE LANGUAGE end of it
 

WHY? is it acceptable to say BALLS in Spanish on national radio/Tv
as Sarah Palin has just done in reference to OBAMA not having any

she could have said he ............ doesn't own a pair

his boys are hiding behind the couch or something similar

there is such a disparity of wanting non english speaking persons
within America to learn English and to speak it fluently
not to have street signs in spanish ........yada, yada, yada...(Sinfeld)

but ..... when people like politicians wanna say BALLS
or anything else off color........
they just substitute Cahones or another spanish word..?

or BIG brass .....well you know what i mean...

i don't get this double standard :doh:

it's a mystery, i'm telling ya

Spence Krugman

Nobel Prize Winner....for all that's worth...:rotf2:

[QUOTE=Raven;785960]WHY? is it acceptable to say BALLS in Spanish on national radio/Tv
as Sarah Palin has just done in reference to OBAMA not having any

it's sexy when she talks that way :uhuh: and most experts agree with her :rotf2:

More "stringent" Federal enforcement can and should be assisted by State and local enforcement. It is the inherent right of the State and locals to do so, and it makes the entire process more productive.

Yes, the other Courts will chime in. No doubt the 9th Circuit will uphold Bolton's decision. When it gets to the SCOTUS, real and substantive argument may happen. Which way it finally goes . . .??