Raven most of the store bought striper is hatchery raised.

John,

I'll try to address the substance of your message and correct the outright false information.

===========================================

But now we have you, the defender of the common man (What the Hell is the "Common Man" anyway??)

It was a compliment. It used to be that an average Joe could post a report on S-B and not get grief for it.


YOU may be taking these fish from the best managed herring run in the world but you can't tell me that taking fish that have yet to spawn is no different than taking fish that are dropping down.

John, let's put a few things in perspective by quantifying what's really going on here.

It may surprise you to learn that...

- The run is only available 35 hours a week for the taking of herring.
- There are 168 hours in a week.
- This means that the run is only being pressured for about 20% of the week.
- To use your analogy, this leaves all of the mommy herring to reproduce 80% of the time.
- It would be nice if I could pick and choose which individual herring in the take area had already spawned but I can't. If you know of a way to do so then please tell us how.


Also, the 20% of the pressure that is on these fish is confined solely to a very small area that is watched by as many as three wardens. I went there this past Sunday and I came back with nothing. Why? Because there was only one hour left to take herring and there were too many others there in line taking too long to get them. This is not to say that run was being over pressured at all. In fact, a warden there told me that the river was packed with herring for a straight 6 miles (that's not a typo) but that the downstream herring were waiting for the sun to pop out before continuing upstream. Indeed, I checked 2 miles downstream and they were very plentiful there but you can't take them in that area.


This is what I call sound and REASONABLE management. But you know what? If you really think that the town of Middleboro shouldn't allow folks to take arguably pre-spawning herring, no matter how few, then I suggest that you write to them and express your concerns. That's what I would do if I felt the way you do. Why? Because, that way the right people would be involved and not just a bunch of folks whining in a vacuum.

Five bucks says you don't even pick up the phone.

There are a lot of ideas that are discussed here John and I dare say some of them are pretty darn good - but what good are good ideas if they never leave this forum.


The "author of this thread" did not attend this meeting as the wife of "the author of this thread", living in another state I might add, had to go home to watch the son of the "author of this thread" so the wife of the "author of this thread" could go to class. Now perhaps I could have left work even earlier, drive the 65 miles from work thru Boston and Providence, picked up my son, drive the 55 miles back to the club and drive back home before his 7:30 bedtime. All for a fisheries meeting in another state. Flaherty - get your head out of your butt and know what you are talking about please.


John, my original post was not aimed at singling you out and that is why I said "the author". It was aimed at everyone that didn't attend the hearing and had a knee-jerk reaction to the outcome.

April was a very lousy month for me...

- My Dad had not one but two heart attacks {he's stable now}
- My wife was rushed away in an ambulance last Monday morning and she had her gall bladder removed this past Friday
{she is still recovering and I've been taking care of her and our 10 month old since}
- A close friend had a miscarriage. {she's coping}

...I'm not trying to bore anyone here with my own troubles. But for the record, had any of these tragedies occurred on or near April 17th (the hearing date), then I too would have missed the meeting.

My point here though is that if I did miss the meeting, then I certainly wouldn't have initiated a doom and gloom post. Why? Because I wouldn't have all the facts.

John, I know that you do occasionally make it to a Mass hearing and that's great, but you did miss this one and it didn't stop you from criticizing those who actually were involved in the process. If somehow it hurts your feelings for me to point that out then I don't know what to say. I only mentioned it to show the context of your position - and that went for anyone else that didn't to the hearing but felt obligated to speak out.


I'm glad you can live with it. I'm glad that in the 2 or so years since you've gotten into saltwater fishing and have become an expert on all things saltwater


John, you are confused. I don't know where you came up with my saltwater experience as only 2 years but for the record, My Dad was born and raised in South Boston and some of my earliest and fondest memories are of fishing with him and my uncle at some of their favorite spots. These would include fishing for flounder and crabs under the Summer Street bridge - back when there was an "under" under that bridge (patrick knows what I mean). We also fished for flounder out on Squantum back when you could. Now you have to wait for the Mayor's derby if you want access. We also fished for bluefish at Carson Beach back when they still called a sub a spucky in Southie because that's what I would eat for lunch. I think I went on my first party boat when I was about 7 or 8 with the Yankee Fleet. It was the first of MANY such trips. Finally, I had a 28 foot wooden Pacemaker Sportfisherman back in the early '90s that I moored at a Southie yacht club.

True, I do consider freshwater fishing to be my real passion but I assure you Sir that I'm no stranger to the salt.

Furthermore, I'm quick learner and I like to think I do my homework before taking a position. Given your gross inaccuracy of my experience, I suggest you do the same.


Mike - show us the way to this panacea of knowledge that you must posess. Us Doom & Gloom Elitists need a leader such as yourself. We're obviously would rather babble about it.


Well, you could start with some of the published work from the Massachusetts Division of Marine Fisheries. I have emailed the links before but I'll post them here again since you're now so interested. You will learn more from documents like these than any thread on this or any other website. When you are done with these, then I can point you to some peer-reviewed scientific journals that I also find helpful. Then if you are really really nice to me, I can point you to a few folks that I trust at NMFS, NEFMC, RFA, and the advisory panel for ASMFC. But don't forget, if you really want to have an impact on the process that determines Mass regs, it's like Patrick said, "TOO LATE YOU FOOL"!

Enjoy reading these documents and take your time. You have three more years before the regs will be reconsidered. Don't worry though, I will be happy to assist you if you still need help then as well...

http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dmf/Ma...ment102402.pdf
http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dmf/Ma...cies102302.pdf
http://www.state.ma.us/dfwele/dmf/Ma...ents102302.pdf


Did the best science change in 4 months? Did the best science state that if the commercial allocation was increased by a third and the recreation believed "take" was increased by nearly a third, it would have no impact on the fishery? Did best available science, which as of a few months ago intimated that there might be a closed season if we took nearly a third more fish - change?


John, again I think you are confused. First of all the recreational take isn't being raised by nearly a third. It is being increased by 21% which isn't even a fourth. I know that a fourth sounds bigger than a third but as denominators get bigger it really means that the each slice of the pie is getting smaller. You're just going to have to trust me on this one because I don't have time to explain 4th grade math right now.

That said, I assume that you are referring to the science used during the discussion at the Amendment 6 hearing back in Dedham. The concern there about a closed season was centered around a fishery management plan at anything less than F .30. If we went to say F.25, which is what CCA advocated, then there was a real possibility that there could be a closed season. As Mr. Diodati said (when Patrick pushed him) at F .25 "someone's going to have to cut catch". However, as it turned out, ASMFC came back with a fisheries management plan at F .30 {thank god}. So the answer to your question is - NO. The best available science didn't change at all in 4 months and given the increases, we are still fishing at or less than F .30 - because we are mandated to. This is why I would trust this science rather than a bunch of well meaning but uninformed/misinformed/uninvolved folks on this and all the other websites out there.


Going to a meeting in Danvers near where you work or to a meeting near your home is significantly easier for a guy such as yourself


John, yet again you are demonstrably very confused. You really do need to do a little more research before making bogus assertions like these. I work in Needham and sometimes Taunton. Both are no where near Danvers. Are you sure you are from Mass? Anyway, I attend meetings wherever they are, Buzzards Bay, NH, Braintree, wherever.

Here's a little story for you...

As stated, I do work in Needham and the Amendment 6 hearing was in Dedham which is only 4 exits away from me. This is a quick ride right after work right? NOPE! I got a message from Patrick at 4:30 telling me that his ride fell through and he asked me if I could give him a ride to the hearing. Guess where Patrick lives - HULL! John, you do know where hull is right? That's right, I had to fight rush hour traffic from Needham to Hull to bring my club's president to the most important meeting of the year that started in 2 1/2 hours. Do you know what route 3A looks like at 5:30? I'm not complaining here and I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I'm just saying that distance isn't an issue for me when it comes to these all important hearings.



Mike it is a "dam shame" that more people are not involved or show up to meetings of follow the newsletters and brochures but I also think I smell a case of meeting elitism on your part.


Fair enough. I'll try to tone it down in the future. {this is called accepting well deserved constructive criticism}

I hope that I have "participated here in a constructive manner" and helped to change some attitudes - but somehow I doubt it.

I'm going Cod fishing this weekend and I would ask you all to wish me luck so I could post a sweet report.

However, if the many folks here think that 2 fish at 28'' is "insane" or "dumb" then I think they would have a real problem if I posted a report here of limiting out with 10 fish at 23+'' (with any luck).

OH THE HORROR!!!!

Mike Flaherty
Signing Off

P.S. John, I sent you everything I had on F2F about 3 weeks ago. It is the same information that appeared in last month's MSBA newsletter on the front page. You may remember that this is the information that I asked you not to mention anything about it until further notice. Thank you for your interest and your patience. I will keep you informed when we are ready to make an announcement to the general public.

O........Brother!!

Quick on the draw, aren't we all?

I love a good debate, but boy, this one reeks as bad as the Oil Spill in Fairhaven.

I just wonder what round this fight is in...

Jugstah - it's in the third round. And like most arguements - somoewhere in the middle lies the truth but in the meantime, Mike has a major HAIR across his ass.

Mike - The average Joe does post here, as does the sub human Joe, the elitist Joe, the Purist Joe, the "Why Can't We all Get Along Joe" and the "I don't give a damn" Joe. We don't limit it to just the "Common Man".

Well, the "elitist" in me sees a herring swimming up I leave it alone, dropping back, I take it. Yes Middleboro is a town run and its very well run. Would I call a Middleboro run? No - I'm dealing with major issues on a run down the street from me that has a tiny fraction of what it did last year...

Your post said the author - that was directed entirely at me, anything other than that is pure BS so don't try to pull any....

I'm sincerely hoping that your dad gets better. I lost my father this past year and I'm sad that my son will never get to know him. Your boy needs to spend time with his gradfather if at all possible! Hope he does well!

Mike - I don't give a rats arse whether you go to a meeting or not, OK - not true, I highly recommend those that don't go should. Anf I appluad you for going but you CANNOT put a blanket assesment that all those that did not make it can't bitch about it and you can't have a hjolier than thou for those that did. I used to feel the same way as you do now until situations I was in showed otherwise - don't do it, it's not cool. All the energy you've wasted on this post could have been done assembling people via e-mail to get their commitments BEFORE the meeting instead of bithchingabout it AFTER

I apologize - you are experienced AND an expert :D

When I get a chance I will read this stuff - F2F info? I'm looking for the a lot of the supporting stuff, not the tiny bit of Secret Squirel Drivel...

Sheet - I lost in all my elitist, purist thinking where the hell I was... Oh well will get back to this crap.

I don't know if I want to have a home brew with you, shake your hand, argus, or kick you in the nuts right now (how's that for elitist talk)...

cheers
 

reminds me of the bar cheers and their rivalry with the other bar down the street....

have alot of beers and smile a bunch.

OK - where were we?

Oh - fisheries science - I feel so relieved that due to my 4th grade math skills :p that the swing from .25 to .30 will keep the season open LONGER if entirely while still taking that much more fish out of the fishery - I feel very relieved. Thanks man. Can I be your friend?

Danvers - what was I thinking, I thought you had to go to Danvers to work, you work even closer to most of these meetings that I thought, shucks darn. You singled me out here, I think your partially full of crap here. OK - getting too sarcastic again. I appluad you for picking up Patrick when he was in a jam when his car broke. Can I be your friend too. Yes, I remember that day when we were all at that meeting. I remember other people coming from all over creation too. Damn, if I had the time that night, I might have gone over to mom's for dinner (right down the street if I could find it, not being from mass and all).

The Horror - my ass!

OK - now that we've both acted like petty kids in a schoolyard squabble, do you want to do something constructive with this or should we both continue to make asses of ourselves? Personally, I'm done nickle and diming this thread and I highly suggest you do the same. If you want to use this forum for constructive works that's fine, it might reach a person or two more than yours (not knocking yours). If and when your forum gets a little larger - and I hope it does - look back on this thread and this time and see how easy it is - and see if you had time to see the bus before it rolls ya.

If you want to continue to nit pick, nickle & dime, throw your meeting attending self righteous arse weight around, I suggest you do it elsewhere. If you had expended half the energy networking people that you've shot off here in the last 2 days building a consensus and getting people to show up, you would have seen a greater turnout. And had less to bitch about. But if you choose to get off your high horse, come across as the "common man" - whatever your definition is - that you defend, maybe you'll see better fruits of your effort.

Do not come over here to attack me, and others, when you don't know JACK about what is going on here. Patricks post was very short and true and said what needed to be said without attacking people - you hopped on board and attacked me & Slip an others. If you are going to post something here to inspire the common man, do so in a constructive manner BEFORE the events - don't tell me that I have no right to squawk now - especially when you have not walked in my shoes.

Now (and I admit I have a hair across my arse too for the past few days), are we going to approach this stuff a little more reasonably next time? Or are you going to drivel like you did which means that I need to drivel the way I did and WE BOTH make arses out of ourselves? Capiche? End this drivel which makes people sick for the WRONG reasons?

hey, flatts, good luck cod fishing huh

resuscitating old thread to make a point.
 

If you care about these and other similar issues, you should be attending the public hearings.

I'm going to BeatchSlap the next person that says that I am not trying to be part of the process and am not doing my part regarding fisheries crap.... Don't start this crap again...

With that all said, I sincerley encourage people to get to Hyannis tonight to make the Public Info meeting tonight... I seriously doubt I can make it...

I have seen your threads and applaud your efforts.

It amazes me when there are 170 views of a thread and only one or two replys about go/nogo, yea/nay.

I'm going (Hyannis),,,,along with a few other MSBA members.

I think our Pres. will have a statement to present.

Anyone who can make it, should go.

I kept in touch with a bunch of charter guys this year. They have been actively discouraging their customers from keeping two fish each and have been quite successful with it. They talk with the customers on the way out and gauge the amount of people on board, etc to determine how much fish needs to be kept.

They aren't really bothered by shorts (I'll let you figure that one out) and are more into not using the two fish limit.

Question:

I know it is wrong to keep a 27" but why (other than the regs) is it worse to keep the 27" and not a 40+" ?