I think were headed down the wrong road....

I think your wrong!:laughs: A safer america with less terroists is heading down the wrong road? Geeze.....thats scary thinking. Lets go back to the good old days and wait to be attacked again. That aint gonna happen with W in office. Take them out before they get us again....sounds like a good plan to me:D

According to John Kerry in his speach late tonight the Red Sox also pulled to within 2 1/2 games of the Yankess! Ummm no John....its still 3 1/2 games my friend:rolleyes: But because john kerry said that does that meen it must be true?! Next time John tell me the sox won the world series and maybe Ill vote for ya!:D

Not much of a choice either way in this election...

I'm much more afraid of our government dissolving our constitutional rights than I am of terrorists!

I think that the media has created new "Boogie Men" since 9/11...

And people are lining up to give away their rights in the name of "peace & safety"...

There isn't much Patriotism in the Patriot Act... socialism is more like it...

And the thought of Kerry as president gives me the willies even moreso!... He is more wooden than Al Gore is!

I am all for the defense of our Nation, but I'm not for the dissolution of our Constitution...

We need new choices...

Powell/McCain in '08 :D

I'm with you Bliz... the constitition has to be upheld.
Skip... dont forget that the more we meddle in other countries, the more terrorists we are gong to create.. President Bush even said it the other day that this war was un-winnable..he then back tracked to save his ass and say that there was no generals to surrender to us...
The facts are this my friend.. There are a couple of countries out there that really have weapons of mass destruction pointed right at us.. theres Iran who is building up nuclear technology right now.. Iraq had nothinhg.... no WMD's were found and Bush and Company fooled all of you to think that Saddam was going to attack us! First they tried to say Iraq was behind 9/11.. that didnt work, then they said Iraq supported Al Queda.. that prooved false... The fact of the matter is this .... Wolfowitz had this Iraq Invasion planned out while Clinton was still in Office..... they were just waiting for the right time to do it.. Bush has had a hard on to take out Sadam since he tried to assassanate ol Bush Sr... he even admitted it. The facts are this, The war on terrorisim is one thing and Iraq is another. Bush misled the amreican people to go there.. its prooven. The problem is that so many americans are so effected by sept 11th that they automaticly associate Iraq with Osama'a attack... Thats Bogus, and I agree with the French.. We shouldnt have attacked Iraq because we were 'scared' of them..
Me, I'd rather focus on making america strong...I'd rather focus on our economy, than to rebuild someone elses... Bush id pushing to take more jobs out of america to companies can make more $$ so the rich stockholders will make more $$ and he's forgetting about the people out there who are loosing their jobs...

here's one question for the republicans to think about that doesn't have anything to do with terrorism or Iraq....

how can you support a president that shows such blatant disregard for the oceans we all fish and the lands we all hunt, just to keep his corporate buddies happy?

another point-- if president bush is such a great leader in fighting terrorism, how come there was no mention of Osama in his convention speech?

and one last thing--does anyone know statistics for the likely-hood of being killed in a terrorist attack? this is in no way meant to disrespect the victims of these unfortunate tragedies, just something to think of....

and RIJimmy, i don't think Al Jazeera deserves any recognition. they have become the terrorist's media outlet for public executions...

- But you Kerry suppoters keep talking about the Arab view of the US. That view is defined by Al-Jazzera, there may be some positive coming out of that outlet that you don't consider. The average Arab citizen is not happy to see innocent people killed on TV. That refelcts poorly on our enemy, not us.


- my answers embeded above
Eben, you keep talking about the "poor" worker. I listened to the labor secretary on the statistics, the current unemployment rate is less that the average rate of the 70s,80s, and 90s. So, although the Dems would lead you to beleive otherwise, its not soe bad. Bush took office after the most articfically inflated economy in history. There was no substance to back up much of the growth of the 90s. A decline is the economy and jobs is expected

Amen to that.

Here is my question for the group. What exactly does Iraq have to do with our safety here in the USA? I don't get it? I am more worried about that idiot in N. Korea. He actually has nukes.....but no oil?

Another question. Why is everyone so gung ho that GWB is going to protect us from the bad guys. When it was his term to serve where was he? Kerry was in 'nam and saw the attrocities(sp?) and felt it was wrong. Is that bad? He practiced his freedom of speech along millions of other people. What is wrong with that? Why do my firends have to die to liberate Iraq? I don't get it.

I don't know if Kerry is the right guy for the job. But I think that its worth a shot 'cause I don't see that GWB has done anything to fix things over the past 4 years other than spend all of the countries money on Iraq.

Please give me reasons to think otherwise. I can be persuaded if the argument is logical.

If you just like GWB because you think your taxes will be lower and you don't want to have the government funding all of these "liberal programs?" How do you think we are going to pay for this war? I'd rather spend my money on helping a poor child get a nutritious meal, a warm place to stay, and a good education. Call me crazy.

_Z_

Zacs, I dont have the energy anymore. :smash:

Zacs, that means you win :happy:

Kerry DID NOT SEE anthing in Nam, If you read his testamonie he said he was told about them by others after he came back from Nam.

My father WAS there for 2 tours, 2 full tours and he said to me the other day "we would all be better off if someone would have shot that SOB before he left"

KL

I wouldn't worry much...

I think that this ticket has already been sewn up...

There will be four more years under our current administration.

Didn't see anything? Hell he said he participated in some!

I understand why some vets are still ticked at Kerry, but it's really time to get on with it. The man volunteered twice for service, and had the passion to speak out against what he felt was wrong.

How many vets returned from Vietnam and turned to booze, drugs, suicide etc...? Kerry reacted to the times in his own way.

Hey Mulder, when you going to teach me how to fish one of my plugs? :smash:

-spence

This is what I love, you can disagree with someone and still go fishing together and have some fun. Spence anytime you want to hook up let me know, as long as the wife will let me out of the house I'll be there. If you fish half as well as you finish you plugs you will do well very well.

I have read his congressional testimony and he NEVER said that he participated, unless I missed something. If he did he should have been tried for war crimes plain and simple.

Personally I could care less what he did or did not do in Nam, I could care less what he said or did not say when he came home. I do care about what he has done in office and what he IS saying now. His voting record is there for all the world to see so take a look at it you will be surprised at what you find out about him. Also the midnight speech IMHO was petty, again IMHO. He did lie, stretch the truth what ever you want to call it when he said that the VP said he was unfit, the VP's speech is also on public record and he said no such thing.

Personally I think this campaign has been a mud fest from both sides, some is true and needed to be brought to the public's attn and some is not.

Rember that we do not live in a democracy, we live in a representative republic. That is how the founding fathers set up the government and that is how it should be.

Ha! Wait till you see me fish. You won't be able to wash the skunk off for weeks :smash:

In the 1971 litany he was reporting what others had told him, but in the Cavet debate with O'Niel (if I remember correctly) he admitted to using approved tactics that He later found out were aginst International Law. Of course his detractors are calling him a war criminal over this. That's the problem when you send an intellectual to battle, too much honesty ;)

What's suprising is how much the Bush Admin has completely taken out of context and how the media is just waking up to this. The characterizations that Kerry's the most liberal member of the Senate and that He's been soft on defense spending are both simply not true. I haven't seen these many facts misrepresented since Powell was in front of the United Nations :rolleyes:

While it's true Cheney never used the word "unfit", it's also true that Bush never used the word"urgent threat" to describe Iraq, but we both know what they meant ;) Read the transcript again, Cheney made it very clear that Kerry wasn't fit to be President. I won't bother posting specifics, although I would add that Cheney's line about Kerry that he "began his political career by saying he would like to see our troops deployed "only at the directive of the United Nations." Is completely true.

Kerry said it in an 1971 interview with a high school newspaper :shocked:

I'd agree for the most part, although if you look at the conventions and official campaign commercials...there is clearly much more negativity from the GOP. The Dems did a little bashing but none of it was in primetime.

-spence

Iraq has oil... let me say this, do you guys who love bush so much think that we would have done what we did over there if they did not have any oil?? Something to consider... about one month after Bush took office, he pulled our country out of the international courts that prossicute war criminals, thus making our troops imune from war crimes... I read this in the paper one day before 9/11 and said..."oh boy were going to attack Iraq" shure enough we did... Also, you'll notice that before we attacked iraq there was a huge push to drill in the oil reserves that we have up in alaska...as soon as that was defeated, the Iraq war drums started beating...If you cant get your oil in one place, you gotta get it somewhere else... right?

I just want someone in office that pays attention to America and not about spreading our applepie all over the world.... remember Hernando Cortez??? The spanish conquestador who slaughtered millions of Mayans and Incans to spread christianity to south america?? I bet Bush has a picture of him over his bed and makes Laura wear one of those stupid silver helmets as he screams "death to Muslims!" well not really but you get my point...

If you live in the moment and are scared, vote for bush, but if yoru thiking about what our country will be like in 20 or 30 years, I feel a democrat is the best answer... that goes back to what Bliz said about the young and the old choosing parties... the old care more about their money that they've made than they care about the enviroment because they're gonna die in a few years anyway.... young people are more concerned that there might not be any clan drinking water, and food for everyone in 40 years.... cant you guys see this? :smash:

Didn't the worst terrorist attack in US history happen under W's watch :rolleyes:

Jigman

Jig, that's how the die hard Bushies think. I don't blame Bush for 9/11, but I'm :af: that the freaking GOP thinks only a Republican can defend this country.

Skip, if there was another (god forbid) attack, would you then say that Bush is a complete failure? Of course not...

Eben, I wouldn't even go as far as to say we need a democrat, we just need someone who will be held accountable and who really has the interests of the American people in their heart.

-spence

remember all those train derailments down south last year?? remember the huge explosion outside of LA in a Power Transformer grid station?? Those could have been attacks... small attacks, but they could have been terrorists... you never know:huh:


Spence your right.. I dont think Kerry or the dems are the ticket to Utopia.... but right now I'm rooting for kerry because I want bush and all his oil/blood s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g buddies gone.... adios bush amigo... adios... He's got everyone fooled hiding behind the crusifix and theAmerican flag... but in the end its all about profits for the rich and screw ma and pa....staying the course to me means more death and destruction along the way

@eben
 

where are you getting your gas at?
because i havn't noticed a price drop in my area from all that oil we are taking from iraq.

Eben

A little history for you. Bush did not pull us out of this International Court, he flatly refused to be a party in it. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. That's why we make SOFA (status of forces agreements) with countries that we base troops in. These rights cannot be given away, ever. Remember each person serving in the US military has sworn the following oath.

"to protect and defend the constitution against all enemys, foriegn or domestic."

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional.

Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/F...ntlCrimCrt.pdf

Iraq's oil is paying for their liberation... so in otherwords, the billions of tax dollars that went to haliburten and all the defence contractors will be repaid by Iraqi oil. This is how Bush sold us the war he said and I quote" their oil will pay for thier liberation"

Also you payed about ¢30 more a gallon for gas durring the first few months of the iraqi war... that ¢30 went right into the pockets of the oil companies...

its stuff like this that get me :af: You arent told this by the media for whatever reason... dont ask me why:smash:

You liberals are all driving me nut on here!!!:D Im sure you are all solid people but damn, so of the stuff i hear is just friggen mind boggeling!!:smash:

Hey Spence I think Im going out tonight, drop me a line if you want to hook up.

Your right wing wako fishing nut KL

:laughs:

what i just said was mind bogggling? its the facts skip.. perhaps you need to stop listening to Rush limbah or whoever else is pumping you up with the propaganda enema.... I sugggest you watch PBS's Frontline episode about Bush coming to power and the war in Iraq... It lays everything out on the table.. the oil, the goverment contracts, who made the $$... and its simple to understand in black and white... I never saw Micheal Moores movie.. i didnt need to, i was already informed of what is really going on so i cant compare the two, but trust me on this, America is taking Iraq's oil right now, and selling it to oil companies to pay Iraq'a liberation tab. If you dont know this, i'm totally amazed. Talk about blind faith:smash:

Spence help me out here:confused:

Well, I think one problem is that isn't what's happening. We were told by the Bush Administration that Iraqi oil would be used to pay for the war so the American taxpayer wouldn't have to shoulder the burden. It isn't happening and it's not going to happen. Add it to the pile of Administration distortions about the war. I'll have to get on my tippy toes though, the pile is getting pretty large.

The real crime is that huge no-bid contracts are going to Halliburton who is in return screwing us with overcharges and outright fraud. The 20 Billion of taxpayer money we donated for reconstruction hasn't been spent and countless other billions are missing. Contracts are being awarded not on merrit but to friends.

I don't believe Bush invaded Iraq just for business reasons, but it's clear that the invasion is being used as a huge opportunity for the Administration to funnel money into the pockets of those they wish to enrich.

-spence

Well O.K. there you have it.. i remember listening to bush leaning over his pulpit saying that "Iraq's oil was going to pay for their liberation"... so I figured that was going to happen...

ahh halliburton.. I'm not going to start on halliburton...

In case you haven't realized. Iraq now has a goverment. They make the decisions as to how to spend their oil revenues.

There are 2 offshore oil terminals off Iraq, Mabot and Kaaot. Room for 8-10 super tankers to load oil. Before the war 1 berth was operational, now all berths are operational. That's 8-10 super tankers every 2 days. That money, is being used by Iraq to rebuild Iraq. Do you think it should go in your pocket?

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we've done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in." -Colin Powell

That's not what was sold to the American people Chief. We were told oil revenue would be used to pay for much of the war.

We were told a lot of things that were not true :smash:

-spence

Spence i love it when we are right :laughs:

Eben

Your not right. You had no clue as to what the ICC or article 98 was about.

article 98 is the war crimes thing right?

why did we pull out of it then?
this
is from amnesty international... expressing exactly what i was saying...

"and they think whatever they say is fact. It really makes me sad knowing people can be easly brain washed by liberal talking points and by some blowhard spewing an opionion with NO facts to back it up. If most people educated themselves and knew some facts about issues and used some common sense i am totally convinced Bush would win by a landside in Nov."

I'm sorry but I'd have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. We only hear sound bites from this administration. The RNC was very low on content and very high on ??? well they were excited. We are now more hated by many in the world than we were befor the cowboy started swaggering around with his six guns.

I'm a veteran and I too took an oath to defend the constitution. This constitution is being eaten away in big chunks lately and not in ways I like. Our rights to free speach cannot be confused by the President as unpatriotic! When in our history has the arguement been "if you disagree with me your a (socialist/communist/traitor/rabel-rouser/sinner)" we're on a sloap.

Also do those "prisoners in Cuba" deserve a trial for alleged crimes if there are allegations against them? Or are they less worhty of this because they aren't Americans? Just a thought.

I consider myslef a Christian. I am a moral conservative i.e.: pro-life, anti-rainbow coalition, etc. but I'm also progressive in my approach to how we as a nation can help each other to be the best country on earth. Firmly do I believe the statement now more than ever that: "if you tell a lie often and loud enough it becomes the truth". The mean spirited politics of the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's has proven this to me.

I just ask to think things through with your own minds. Don't believe the Conservative press or the Liberal press. Read the testimonies and watch the voting records on C-span.

Good luck making up your own minds.

GW will get my vote. While I am not happy with some of his domestic policies, and he is not the best president in history, what does Kerry offer? I have heard little if anything about what he will do for the Country. I have heards about his 4 months of service in Vietnam, but that was 30 years ago? Perhaps he served more bravely than GW, I don't really care. I don't know where he stands on any issue, other than he thinks GW is doing everything wrong. I am not impressed at all with Kerry's voting record, and the fact that he ranks as one of the most liberal democrats after Kennedy scares me.

For those of you who think that the war on terrorism is nothing more than a scare tactic put out by the right, how have the events in Russia the last two weeks made you feel? Can you link Al Quadea and people in general that hate us, or do you think they are two unrealted things?

RIPopper... god bless you. :love:

Eben

A little history for you. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. These rights cannot be given away. Clinton was messed up to have signed the treaty to begin with.

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional for our service members.

Question Eben : Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/...IntlCrimCrt.pdf

Amnesty International should be having a party because we gave "basic" human rights to the people of Iraq. Next thing you'll throw at me is something by the ACLU.

I'm not saying that their rights should be taken away, but I think that they should be held acountable for their actions in a way that grants the person or people that have been violated equally... we have people down in cuba that may or may not be guilty of terrorisim, but they are being held in dog cages and are being treated like garbage..We have had a few people in Abu gharib prison treat their captives like they were chunks of meat, totally disreguarding any sorts of rights that the iqaqi detainees were entitled to. Will those people be punnished?? yes by our courts, but rest assured they will be given a slap on the wrist at best.
Our country seems to have the attitude that our beliefs are better than everyone else, our god is better than the muslim's Alah, and that our way is the only way. I think thats wrong. I think that the world would be more harmonious if we didnt play the role of the global bully. Leave that to the UN, that is why it was created...if you think about it, the UN is a democratic voting system, while we make global desicions like Bush is the king of the world.. Thats kind of Hypocritical dont you think?? Here we are saying we're spreading democracy to the land of tyrany and then we thumb our nose at the democratic process created to avoid pointless wars.
And we wonder why every other country in our world hates us?:smash:

i answered your question navychief, now please answer mine... do you think that we would have liberated Iraq if they did not have any oil?

Yes

They were a threat to our national security.
They were a threat to the region.
They were a threat to the economy.
They blew off UN sanctions for more than 10 year.
They did not assist inspectors.
We went to Bosnia, no oil there.

In the post 9-11 world, hard decisions have to be made. We cannot let that happen again.

"Leadership means pissing people off"

The UN is a democratic body, but they have no way to enforce their sanctions. So we do it. Then you say that we acted independently.

Our rights (as US citizens) are more than anyone else's and you can't take them away. We are held accountable for our actions by our own goverment and you, the citizen.

Be mad, vote for Kerry. It's your right and freedom. Merry Christmas and have fun paying higher taxes.

I agree with you Navy Chief.. our personal rights as US Citizens are higher than the average mid-eastern citizen. that can not be contested and I'm not saying that a soldier should give up those rights. So in a way I also agree that what your saying makes sense that if a person in uniform did do something wrong, and was taken to a international court, the person would in theory be treated the same way as someone in another country.. I'm just saying that that sets the precident for warcrimes to go un-accounted for.

I will vote for Kerry.. not beause i love him or because i think hes the best choice now, but because I think bush is the greater of 2 evils.

So merry christmas to you, and vote for bush... enjoy our "new world order" that the neo-conservatives have created for you... and i hope were still here in 10 years. Bush really isnt the scary guy... its the guys who are telling him what to say that i'm scared of.