two super bowl wins, two super bowl mvp's, 6-0 record in post season. brady's record speaks for itself. ( not to mention 31-4 and counting in past two seasons ).

I think you guys are confusing Talent with Greatness. A Great Quarterback is presented w/ an oppportunity in the face of great adversity and rises to the occasion. A talented Quarterback just keeps putting up numbers.

For this reason Peyton Manning should not be considered as a Great QB. He has been presented with great opportunities but has done nothing w/ them. Until he does he is just a VERY VERY talented QB.

Same w/ Marino, The guy was the most talented QB to ever play the game but Greatest? You need to rise up and Take charge of the opportunities presented to you....he didn't

Say what you want about Brady, but he was given an opportunity 3 seasons ago and grabbed it and took his team to a championship....and he did it in the final seconds of the superbowl.....twice as a matter of fact.

Montana has done that too. he was presented w/ an opportunity and he shined.

It doen't matter what your season long stats are, it matters what you do at the moment of truth that dictates your greatness. Until Peyton wins the big one and rises to the occasion he can't be considered one of the greatest. He DID orchestrate the greatest season by a QB though.


There that should ad some fuel to the fire

TDF....you absolutely encapsulated the very essence of what greatness means....though the few here who are bitter because the Patriots sit upon the top of the football world will never give in to simple reasoning.;) Your definition is perfect, logical, and reasonable. I am done trying to teach the blind to see....for they can't!:smash: Maybe one more Superbowl win and they will be unable to deny what is fact!:D

well said TFD!!:D

OK, so that means he's among the AFC leaders in rushing because he has a great O-line opening the holes for him, right?

Which might also explain why Peyton doesn't get sacked a lot and has time to set up and throw, right?

So--is Peyton carrying the whole team on his back
:rolleyes:

Lets pig-pile on Raider Ron!:laughs:

Ok so if then Ben R takes the Steelers to the bowl and wins he is GREATER than Brady, Montana and all the others because he didnt lose a single game and went into the superbowl and won???? WHy not say he is the greatest if he accomplishes this because is there anyone that has done this?

VF- how can you compare ben to montana, brady, and all the others:rolleyes: you got the good stuff?:smokin:

Ben might....and I say "might" just be a flash in the pan...lets see him play like Brady has his first 3 years, put up the same numbers Brady has and win 2 Superbowl rings and 2 Superbowl MVP awards like Brady has and then we can talk about how "great" Ben is!:smash: Can't you see how uneven the scales are VF?:confused: Brady has been here and Ben just got here....that is all the difference we need to talk about right now!;)

ther's no doubt that ben is having an excellent rookie year. he's showing a lot of POTENTIONAL not greatness. like BF said - let's talk after 3 years.

My comments were based on TDF's post about talent and greatness

[QUOTE]Originally posted by The Dad Fisherman
[B]I think you guys are confusing Talent with Greatness. A Great Quarterback is presented w/ an oppportunity in the face of great adversity and rises to the occasion. A talented Quarterback just keeps putting up numbers.

For this reason Peyton Manning should not be considered as a Great QB. He has been presented with great opportunities but has done nothing w/ them. Until he does he is just a VERY VERY talented QB.

Same w/ Marino, The guy was the most talented QB to ever play the game but Greatest? You need to rise up and Take charge of the opportunities presented to you....he didn't

Say what you want about Brady, but he was given an opportunity 3 seasons ago and grabbed it and took his team to a championship....and he did it in the final seconds of the superbowl.....twice as a matter of fact.

Montana has done that too. he was presented w/ an opportunity and he shined.

It doen't matter what your season long stats are, it matters what you do at the moment of truth that dictates your greatness. Until Peyton wins the big one and rises to the occasion he can't be considered one of the greatest. He DID orchestrate the greatest season by a QB though.


Well put!!!
But,
Being surrounded with talent allows you to "Rise to the occasion)

Oh please.....just another excuse monger!:rolleyes: I don't know any quarterbacks Ron that have won a single game all by themselves! :laughs: Give up the props already.:laughs: Any quarterback has won because he has a good supporting cast to one degree or the other.;)

I don't think it makes him the GREATEST....but its a hell of a start. He pulls off a few of these during his career and you can start throwing around his name w/ montana.

Its definitely the greatest Rookie performance IF he pulls it off (Lets not put the cart before the horse). And he also needs to be one of the reasons they win the superbowl......handing off to the "Bus" doesn't qualify you as a great QB. :D 15 games does not constitute a career either. he needs a little longevity.

You have to remember he didn't just lead his team to the superbowl...he was the MVP of both of them. Last year the Pats leading rusher had only 600+ yards...yet they won 14 in a row enroute to winning the superbowl, a lot of which was on Brady's arm.

I don't think Brady is one of the greatest ever....yet....but he is definitely well on his way. Once he wins another....Superbowl....that will pretty much do it :D


Basically........Big Ben can never be considered greater than Brady until he has MORE than 2 rings and 2 MVP's.....thats just basic logic right there

<<Basically........Big Ben can never be considered greater than Brady until he has MORE than 2 rings and 2 MVP's.....thats just basic logic right there>>

TDF I totally disagree!! That is crap just because Brady was fortunate enough to fall into the right team/coaching staff and get by in 2 superbowls wins that another Quarterbacl can ever be considered better, BULLSHEEET so you are saying Marino wasn't better than Brady????? You need your head examined for that analogy:smash:

As far as I'm concerned he is........Marino was one of the Most Talented to play the game but the Greatest??? Its all up to interpretation. Which would you...as a fan... rather have on your team, A Record Breaker or a Superbowl Winner? I know which one I want.

And Brady didn't actually "Get By" in 2 superbowls. he ran the 2 minute drill to WIN both superbowls. A little different. I also said I don't consider Brady great....yet. The only reason I made that statement was because you seem to already have Big Ben enshrined in Canton....

Oh and I used to have my head examined on a weekly basis.....but the bartenders insisted that I tip them better if i was going to continue my therapy. :D


Ahhhh Playoff Time

Montana shattered records and won the ring 4 times.....he is a lock in my mind for the greatest ever!:D

TDF you must be misreading all of my posts because I have said more than once I do not think he is a great Quarterback he still has much to prove, however you cannot takeaway the fact he is setting records and has had a phenomenal season to date.

Big Ben had a phenominal season without a doubt.....and outside of beating the Patriots, I wish him well and can't wait to see what his future holds.;) You got a diamond in the rough VF....just a little more seasoning and he may just be a full blown "GEM"!:D

And hey...what if Ben caps his season with a ring? I hope the Pats win of course but if he did do that......he will be on his way to greatness.;)

Montana's got the four rings, but Unitas called his own plays. That's gotta count for something. Tonite, I'm saying Johny U is the greatest ever...next time I think about it, I'll pick Montana.:D

But Johnny "U" doesn't have any Superbowl rings!:tm:

Don't forget, before the Super Bowl, there was something called the "NFL Championship" and Johnny U won that more than once, too---and it wasn't just by handing off to Alan Ameche or Tom Matte ;)

Of course, back then, if you wanted a ring, you had to pay for it yourself.

I hope you saw the "smilie" with his thumb in his ear......just being funny MikeP. Hey Mike...gonna post some eye candy for you soon!:D

Look at the post times big guy---even I can't type that fast. ;) Just mentioned it since 28" brought him up.

hey bf diamond in the rough? he was a top 10 pick i dont think that qualifies as "rough" just yet :P im thinkin 6th round...272nd pick, now thats a diamond in the rough. a nice shiny 2 superbowl diamond :)

If the NFL season were to end right now, Brady would have 2 Rings and 2 Superbowl MVP's, Ben R would be a footnote.

why you guys so concerned about jewlery guys wear?:hee: 05' is what counts

Surfcastinglife....I was paying a compliment in that post. Making reference to the fact that this is just his first season and he has had a great one....not comparing draft selection against Brady.;) You are right though.....isn't it amazing where Brady was selected!:smash:

ah ic ;) my mistake then and yea great job scouting by the league guys on brady :D. troy brown was an 8th round selection way back when and hes had a great carreer. i guess no matter how much scouting u cant predict what will happen to a player once he gets his hands on that money and is faced with the pressures of having to earn it

Great battle going on here with many good points but you guys are missing one crucial one. The best palyer on the Patriots is not the QB or the running back or even a player at all. It is the COACH!! No one prepares his team better for a game better than Belicheck. He knows every little detail about his opponent and takes advantage of every tiny weakness. The Pats coaching staff is "greater" than any other and has been for two seasons now. Sure, the players hafta perform but the coach gives the team a definate edge. I hope the Pats play Pitt so I can laugh at Cowher's facial contractions and scowls as he is out-coached (again)

:D

spinn

Spinn don't pat yourself to hard on the back, you are only partially right. While Bill B might be a good coach I think the entire staff has to be credited for the teams play. I hear all of this talk about Bill B being the best coach, well if you look back to his days as Clevelands coach what do you say about that, Bill Cowher his staff and the Steelers owned the Browns, so I don't think you can say it is one coach making the team as succesful as it has been.

Of course the staff is credited....and who hired the Staff?



That was 10 years ago......Oh I forgot the past is fine, the Steelers won 4 Superbowls, of course that was when I was still getting a nickle a day for my Milk Money.

Bill B is 2-1 against the Steelers w/ his Current Team including beating them in the AFC Championship game AT Pittsburgh.

If its not the Quarterback and its not the Coach then who/what are the reason that a team goes to that next level?

I already told you it is the whole coaching staff and the whole team, if they dont play as a team they dont win. Does anyone know what the Patriots payroll is ?? That would anwer alot of questions, I have heard they will be 80 mill over the cap.