Thats interesting, I was aware of the effect of freshwater supposedly slowing or shutting down the heat pump of the ocean by basically stopping the gulf stream...

As far as the ice cores, pick up a book called 2mile time machine by Richard Alley... great read on the Greenland Ice core project, and yes it is an annual record like tree rings...

There are some interesting ideas you brought up, I wasnt aware of a bunch of them and will require further review :D
I like this thread

I've read similar predictions that the temp rise will dramatically increase precip in northern lattitudes. Now where was that...

-spence

Anybody see the movie Day After Tommorow?
Rented it a few weeks back. Was alright, a little out there made you think WHAT IF....

I think that movie was good in that it made people think... and bad in that it made people think that it could happen like that...

I do like dennis quade though, he's a good everyguy actor like Bruce Willis etc... I can do without Ahnold, Stalone etc..

It is quite ironic that the Pentagon came out with some deadly serious predictions as to what global warming could really do to impact our quality of life...at about the same time ;)

-spence

Simple
 

The earth is and has been heated by the sun. Reflective heating exists and has existed for all time.

In the summer you climb into a dark car and its like an oven. A lighter color car a little less.

Now, drive around and check out all the huge shopping malls that have sprung up in the last 40 - 50 years.

Where there used to be huge tracs of open land with trees and grass with land that could absorb the rain that fell and put it into wells and underground streams there is now acres and acres of not only buildings over that land but huge parking lots keeping the earth from absorbing the rain and cooling things down.

Those humungous parking lots, all nice black tar to absorb the heat and pass it back up into the air aren't helping either. Walk across a field in your bare feet and then walk across a parking lot barefooted. I doubt it.

Where does all that heat produced by the black parking lots go? Heat rises! No, it's not going to happen in a week but over a period of 20, 30, 40 years, all that extra heat produced has to have an effect on the atmosphere.

Just a thought

Sarge

RIROCKHOUND

Doesn't that Cape Hattaras photo just show the normal motion of barrier islands and offshore currents ? Isn't that normal coastal geology and has nothing to do with global warming ?

NC..
I mentioned breifly what I felt about the previously...

Yes, on the shorter term less than a 100yrs, sea level does not drive coastal erosion... there are many geologists who think it does, but I am in the camp that believes erosion is storm driven... on the scale of 500-1000's of years sea level does determine where the shoreline will be, but as it effects on structures is minimal... heres why I think that

Take the SE New England coast for example; sea level at the Newport Tide gauge has risen about 2.7mm/yr since it was installed, with some wiggle here and there. This ammounts to about about 27cm of sea level rise/100 years... that means that if you built a house on the Charlestown Barrier after the Hurricane of 1938, your house is ~65 years old. Sea level has risen ~7" since then... Your averave storm surge on the Sshore in '38 was ~15ft give or take... 6" is chump change on that...

Short term erosion on the coast is driven by storms, tropical and extra tropical (NE'ers), and are generally based on these factors
(Hayes and Boothroyd, 1969)
1. Storm intensity
2. Storm track (east or west of location)
3. Stage of the tide (spring/neap)
4. Storm Duration (Often why SE'ers are more erosive than thier cousin the hurricane... they often last for many tide cycles, a hurricane is generally 1 tide cycle)
5. Time between storms


Where sea level rise has come into play is that houses built, even to code, that were high enough when constructed to allow the 100yr storm surge to pass under them are now not high enough to accomidate this surge... This is true for many structures...

Sea level also dictates where on the shelf the shoreline (barriers) will be, which is also dictated by the topography of the land behind the shoreline...

Bottom line, the beach will always be there, just not where you want it to be..


And Newboater.. that argument has been made and probably has some validity, but I think the amt of energy of the oceans far eclipses that of the effect of black top, but I still think it doesn't help matters much....

bryan-- i sent you an email. thanks man.

back at ya

for spence, from CNN -
%$%$%$%$ said he knows that some allies think that his only concern is national security, and he said that national security is at the top of his agenda. Yet, he said, "We also care about hunger and disease. We care about the climate."

Many allies are upset with the United States for refusing to approve the Kyoto climate treaty.

"They thought the treaty made sense," %$%$%$%$ said. "I didn't." He noted that the Senate had voted 95-0 against the treaty. Yet, %$%$%$%$ said there were other ways to deal with the problem of global warming and that he would talk with allies about new technologies to deal with the issue.

If Buhs had a track record of caring for hunger and disease I would think differently...but the simple facts are what He says and what He does are completely different.

Remember K3rry during the campaign? "this is the most say one thing and do another administration..."

They do a brilliant job of talking a moderate line, then walking in the other direction. Most people really don't pay attention, if the media reports it they are ridiculed as a liberal conspiracy.

This is the same line He gave to the World 4 years ago. The Administration said they didn't agree with Kyoto and that they would provide a counter proposal we would agree to. It never happened, in fact they kept claiming we just needed to study the issue more...delay...delay...delay...now we're getting the same story all over :rolleyes:

I'm not saying Kyoto is a great proposal, but we need to engage with the World and provide some leadership. Doing so would require admitting there may be a problem, and this is the problem.

Americans need to come to Jesus on the environment. We have an extremely good lifestyle, but it comes at a cost. The rise of other industrialized nations like China and India will only put more pressure on the system.

Some (like Rush Limbaugh) would like you to believe that anyone who's environmentaly friendly is anti-capitolisim. By Buhs's behavior I'd have to say the Administration shares this opinion.

Again, this isn't partisan Buhs bashing...it's a pragmatic look at our economy and what's really happened the past 4 years.

-spence

i just wanted you to see that ALL of Congress voted against the treaty

Context is very important here. Buhs is referring to a Senate vote that took place nearly 9 years ago :rolleyes:

Today there is stronger support, and even John McCain (R) is a proponent of Congressional action.

The message isn't even really that the US should just sign up to Kyoto, but that we should enter the International dialog surrounding climate change.

The most powerful nation on the planet shouldn't be ignoring what's clearly a Global problem. It's called "pluralisim", something that most right-wingers are deathly afraid of.

-spence

Sarge
 

I agree with you and think paving over the ground with Tar everywhere has to eventually contribute excess heat...
and its not just parking lots but every highway and street in america and in every country on earth including all the "MASS" incorporated within buildings as well. It always amazes me when doing remodeling how little insulation was used in the walls of many older houses and allot of the times there simply isnt any which creates massive heating fuel consumption and subsequent heat loss from those homes.

right now scientists have created insulation thats super thin yet insulates as well as three feet of fiberglass insulation.

but like the automotive industry...it isnt going to be for sale any time soon...same as the car that gets 200 miles per gallon of fuel.

i heard today that one of the biggest super malls is going to expanded to twice its size in minnesota...at a cost of 1.8 billion dollars or something like that..... its insane......:af:

I wonder what it would have been like, the debates and stuff, if the technology we have and the scientists we have now were around at the start of the ice age? "It's getting colder each year, the Mammoth's are dying and the saber tooth tigers are too" It is not getting colder it's your imagination" Oh yeah it's getting colder and it's all President Krag's fault that no good neanderthal!":laughs: :laughs: :laughs:

Why is it the US's responsibility to clean the environment? The US is at the forefront in working towards a cleaner environment on all fronts. We have the technology and resources and have made more steps to controlling pollution than any other country. Countries like China and India (asmentioned) and especially third world countries are the ones not doing their part to take the proper steps towards a cleaner environment. Many have no regulations at all regarding automotive emissions, water pollution, factory emissions, refuse management, etc, etc, etc.
I've traveled all around the world and seen much of it first hand in both third world and industrialized countries.

It's everyone's responsibility. A little leadership goes a long way...

I suppose I should stop mowing my lawn because my neighbor didn't.

-spence

everything turns into a bash fest with some :smash:

:doh: If the US is at the forefront in this issue, isn't that leadership?:smash:

You started a good thread that almost deteriorated into a predictable and common anti-Buhs thread.

The US isn't at the forefront of this issue...

And 28, are you saying I didn't go a good job ;) :laugha:

-spence

Yo Spence; the big yellow one's the sun.:D

Okay, I'll bite. who would that be then?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by spence
[B]It's everyone's responsibility. A little leadership goes a long way...

I suppose I should stop mowing my lawn because my neighbor didn't.



Use a push mower. :D You can think while you mow and get your mind right. :laughs:

The EU, Japan etc...

We're typically a step or two behind. The reason for this is quite obvious, we have more to loose. That doesn't still mean there aren't problems that need to be addressed though.

The US has done many positive things at home over the years, often to correct bad or missing legislation previously. Recently there has been a tremendous amount of manipulation of science at the behest of industry, which won't show for many years...

-spence

proof....
 

about georges administration ignoring the scientific community's findings on global warming....





http://www.cnn.com/2005/TECH/science....ap/index.html

this winter is longer
 

because of global warming