The only flaw with this is that VS already tried it. US built, US assembled, built like we want it to be (not counting an easy way to get inside) and look where it got them. Starting from day 1 it's apparently never exactly worked, at least in terms of the company making money. I guess Penn could learn from the mistakes and give it a try, but there is already a business model out there for built to last, built in the US reels and it's not encouraging.

In the past I've had several engineers stop by the shop, look at the VS, and be surprised they sold for what they did a few years ago. Which makes sense considering the company ended up being bought by Bradley Company. It's just an expensive reel to make, there's no way around it.

Lastly, not listening to customers is a reminder that the surf casting community; especially hard core surf casters, is a very small group. Many of the products we use weren't built with surf fishing in mind, they just happen to work there. I doubt the Saltiga was built with the surf in mind but it apprently works there. Support those who DO listen. Besides VS there aren't many reel makers, but Aquaskinz and your local plug builders certainly do. :)

yep, well said

That's what happens when your economy is based on growth as opposed to sustainability.

Beachwalker, your right. Companies have been chasing the cheap labor around the third world for decades.Gradually the standard of living and costs rise and they move on to the next.This migration has always had an effect on American jobs.But, China's gonna be the mother of all job busters.They just have sooo many people, and the investment community is Jumping all over it despite the political and economic risks. China is allowed to grow at an unprecedented rate on someone else's dime.
So perhaps it's survival of the fittest, and there's a new world order around the bend. The gravy train is pulling into the station.
The part I don't understand is: Why aren't we fighting it?
We are taking on water and standing on the foredeck, when maybe it's time to pull it into drydock and shore her up before we lose her.
If you know what I mean.

Why aren't we fighting it?



This country puts money and power ahead of all else. Things are not changed until the brink of catastrophe, and even then, the politicians have it all figured out so they will stand to benefit from it all somehow. In the end, it is always us that pay the price.

Well hopefully Penn has moved forward with the firing of all that upper management and can get some people in there that can turn the ship around. They do have the Penn name and that is probably the most widely recognized name in fishing. Now they just need to get back to the drawing board and make some decent quality products. It can be done but they need to hire people that know how to turn them in that direction. Seems they have been resting on their laurels too long. If they wait too long though there are a lot of reel manufacturers out there just waiting to jump on their market share, if it hasn't happened already. As far as the relationship with their customers I guess they need work in that area too from what I have read. I hate to see any American manufacturing buisness that was so good at one time fall so far. Paul

a few years back I had some problems with my penn reels and got no satisfaction from penn resolving these issues.... I went to shimmanno and haven't looked back......(well I did look at some of the penns last season, but walked away) .... it is a sad fact that all the sacred items that we used to pride ourselves with making have been outsourced ........ :af:

So what is my alternative to a Penn Senator for wire line??? I have switched on the spinning side to shimano due to many of the poor quality/feature issues with Penn, but what about for wire??

For wire or for trolling I feel Penn is still the way to go. Simple and effective reels. I am not sure if any other manufacture's offer a stainless, or chromed cast bronze spool. Aluminum spools just don't hold up to wire or leadcore for that matter, corrosion. I still like the old Penns before they went to the plastic bodies. There are millions out there. I have asked many times why they do not make anymore bronze spools for any of their reels, jigmaster, 112H, etc. except for the 113HSP. I guess they just want to sell you a new spool every year. I buy all my Penns on E-Bay and then have the old corroded spools stripped and chromed. All replacment parts are still readily available. Good as new. Paul

I said this once before if Shimano offered the Stradic with a waterproof drag and a sealed housing for under $250 they'd be the balls.Will they do it...probably
not knowing that the hardcore surf guy will pay huge dollars for a VS.

Until then I'll to stick with my Spheros and 704z.Or possibly an Okuma VS reel depending on how well IT works out.

Penn Questions Answered
 

First time posting on this board, so a quick intro is probably appropriate. My name is Brent Kane. I am the Advertising & Communication Mgr for Penn Fishing Tackle. Having been with the company for just over two years, I have seen a fair amount of the changes and can appreciate the concern and resentment towards Penn. I also worked at Fisherman's Headquarters in NJ for about 10 years prior and saw what was happening to Penn. About five years ago, I had given up any faith on the company. They allowed quality to slip, processes to slide, and their name to turn. Quite honestly, it pi$$ed me off, and when the company sold to the new owners I knew things would improve. Two years ago, I managed to get a position with Penn, and I have been holding on tight ever since; it is a bumpy ride. There were many things wrong, and to fix them is not an overnight process. As they say, what a long strange trip it's been.

From what I have read on this board so far, it seems like a pretty good group, and is the reason why I am offerring my email address to answer questions on Penn issues. Please feel free to ask anything with the exception of pricing, deals, product specifications, or what reel is best matched with what rod. My answer to these is simply see your local Penn Gold Label Dealer. As far as questions that pertain to Penn issues, I'll answer anything as honestly as I can. Quality, decisions, direction, production, relationships with Dealers, new product suggestions, whatever else you can think of??? I can be reached at bkane@pennreels.com I will have no problem with my reply being copied onto the site for others to read or even argue back to me with their take on my comments. I apologize for taking this approach, but the last time I spent time on a fishing forum it became impossible to keep up with all the topics, threads, and posts. I hope this approach works.

I look forward to receiving your emails, and all I ask for is patience; I will try my best to answer any inquiries the same day, but depending on other priorities, it may take a day or two.

Best regards,
Brent

..

Brent, welcome, and somehow I knew Mike would be the first to respond... oh yeah, make Mike a Penn dealer again :D I saw you wanted to address relationships with Dealers, as well.....

I am still a dealer .Just not a very happy one. :splat:

BK Hope you dont mind keeping this in public I have nothing to hide.

I love Penn ,just wish they would take their heads out of their. :bshake:
I would never again use a penn spinning reel after past problems. I sell them to people who demand them which is fewer and fewer each year.After we are out of the US made spinning reels we will most likely drop all spinning reels by penn. There is to much out there better quality for the money.
Their Boat reels are now starting to take a hit, but they still remain on top

Brent - Welcome to S-B...

I do not know what kind of influence, if any, that you may have in the upper workings of Penn. I truly hope you have some. As "Advertising & Communication Mgr" I'm willing to guess that you have been either tasked with trying to curb some of the disenchantment on the street or are taking it upon yourself to do that. If you have any true power beyond that, just maybe Penn has a chance.

Penn is in Deep Kimshe right now – certainly in the eyes of the former faithful and likely on the balance sheet as well. Perhaps your big water International reels are still top dog in their market segment but the products sought after and purchased by the Average Joe are no longer very sought after and less likely to be purchased. Up and down the coast, Penn probably owned 75% of the market, coffee grinders grinding….

Penn has languished in innovation and thoroughly embarrassed itself in product quality. Simple issues that have gone on for years like flipping bails and tiny line rollers have been ignored by the old ownership and apparently skipped by the new ownership.

Now that you are moving spinning reel production over to the shoe factory nation, what POSSIBLE incentive remains for us to purchase a Penn reel? The first reel I ever bought with my own money was a Penn. I have Penn reels my grandfather fished in the 50’s surf and bigger game. I have purchased numerous Penn reels over the years but it looks like my 975 from last year will be my last Penn unless something drastic happens at your company.

Issues with Penn:

Little innovation, Cannot even incorporate best practices developed by other companies (larger line rollers anyone?, Anti-Reverse?? Come on, this is bush league stuff guys)

Overseas production

Introduction of CRAP product

Ridiculously stupid Gold Label Dealer program

Re-badging of other crap product, Roddy Reels? Junk. Walmart JUNK. Actually Walmart might even pass on that stuff.

I am really not trying to be negative here but I can honestly NOT think of anything positive to say about Penn Reels or from Penn Reels over the past few years. There was mild hope with the Slammers but even those fell short. It is disappointing to see how bad Penn Reels is operating as a company, frustrating, disappointing, and suffering from a complete disconnect for it’s user base. We as a community WANT Penn to succeed and not need to stumble into the crap on this post but it is up to Penn to produce the World Class Reels that they falsely claim, and it is up to Penn to lead the American Reel market. Right now, you guys are not doing it.

I hope you can at least stay with this thread as you replied here.

Sincerely,

John

Chief Cook & Bottle Washer

www.Striped-Bass.com

for what its worth, i have a slammer and absolutely love it. :wiggle:

And that's why your go to reels are a VS and some tuned Old 704/6 reels, right? I have debated a Slammer time and again but the C/B ratio just don't seem right. I dropped that coin (and then some) on something else... a used VS. Imagine, needing to pay 3 times the value of Penns' premeire surf reel on a USED REEL because the Penn does not do what I want it to do where I want to do it :humpty: .

The only Penn's I buy now are the old models. I probably own 20 to 30 Penn reels, 80 % are boat stuff. Nothing newer than 1990. I buy them off the auction sites and fix or repair them myself. I feel all the new stuff just doesn't measure up to the old stuff. I feel way more comfortable with a 20 year old Penn than a brand new one. What I do have I love. What I like about the Penn stuff is the simplicity of the design and the ease of repair. My opinion is Penn has gotten lazy, collected the $ and put nothing back into the company, living off the once prestigious Penn name. Times are changing and you are being left in the dust. Paul

I started cutting my surfcasting teeth just as Daiwa and Shimano started making inroads in the American market.

IMO, the only reason Penn was able to retain a market share in the face of comparable, and even superior, products from the Japanese was the loyalty consumers paid to "the Great AMERICAN Reel Company". Once you move spinning reel production to China, Penn is going to get lost in a sea of cheap-assed "entry-level" junk offered by a gazillion other companies--Tica, Okuma, Marado, you name it.

It's a pretty telling fact that the two Penn reels most favored by hard core surfcasters are a spinning reel designed in the early 1960s and a conventional designed in the 1930s. If I put a Captiva thru the paces I've put the green 704 on my shelf, it wouldn't have lasted for 30 weeks, let alone 30 years. Same with an International 975 as opposed to the 60 year old Squidder I still use.

Your main selling points for over 20 years, in the face of increased import competition, was simplicity of design, interchangeability of parts between similar models, parts availability, continuity of product, and above all else, products engineered and manufactured in the US of A. IMO that last point was the only thing that's kept Penn in business.

I wonder what the future holds for the Z series.Discontinuation or overseas production?Either way we lose.

I guess its Shimano from here on out.

Seems to me Penn management has the same arrogance of the Big 3 Auto Manufacture’s of the 70's versus the Japanese auto's and look what happened to them.

I hope you (Penn) will listen to what is being said here because it's been falling on deaf ears for so long.

I "was" dyed in the wool Penn (spin) but sold every one I had opting for Shimano, that was hard to do. Convince me & others to come back but for now I am sticking with a much greater performing product.

Throw this at management - I bet MikeCC has sold 75 Shimano to a lonely 1 Penn (both spin) and, AND if Shimano changes the spool on their boat reel to be wire friendly watch out your 112/113/114's are in trouble. He is one small shop in one small town, add'm up.

Penn = :smash:

how maeny surf caught fish were on a 704?penn needs to step up to the plate

Here's what I would suggest.

Van Staal proved there was a market for a premium spinning reel. Right now, Penn has written off that market. Shimano and Daiwa jumped in with both feet, with the Stella and Saltiga. They're proving guys will spend $600-$700, or even close to $800, for a quality product. If you could engineer a similar product, build it here, and bring it to the market in the $400-$500 price point, you'd have an instant success.

You want to make Zebco rue the day they ever acquired Van Staal? Re-engineer the 704 and 706. One little tweak--figure a way to retro-design them with "instant" roller-bearing anti-reverse. You could bump the price to $200 or even $250 and sell every one you make. Bring back the 710 and 712 with the same tweak---maybe even manual conversion capability, and you'd wipe the VS 150 and 100 out.

Oh yeah---one other thing. Tell the guys in production to ship the damn things with adequate grease inside a new reel. Most of the Slammers are dry as a bone inside, new out of the box. I hate spending $135 for a reel only to have to break it down and grease it before I use it.

Close chris. we have sold 78 Shimano and only 1 Penn Spinning (706) but we have sold 6 Penn 113HSP ,1 - 330GTI and only 1 Shimano Boat reel.

This is lhe last post for me on this subject.

I'll I have to say is there is no reason for me to believe in Penn when the Company does not believe in themselves.

Shimano makes a fantastic reel, and has terrific customer service.

But I have to echo everything Mike P just said. I love my VS, but needing another spinner I fretted over another VS or the Saltiga. I ended up buying a 704 off ebay...I would have easily spent up to 400 on any other product that had a nice anti-reverse and could deal with the suds...

-spence

mike p hit the nail on the head.

Available Manual conversion
Instant Reverse
Tapered Spool
Large Roller
Sealed Drag
Ventilated/Cross drilled spool * cup
Otherwise gasketed/sealed reel
Get rid of the damn clicker (pisses off some nighttime guys that don't lube the crap out of it)
Fix the Bail Flip

Roller bearing "instant" anti-reverse would do away with the clicker. No one I know back-reels those things with the anti-reverse off anyway, so there's no need for a switchable on/off anti-reverse. All it would do is add needless parts to a simple design.

Some machinists already slot the rotor cups, and most users drill the bottom of the cup. It's possible to make them that way (even with cast aluminum) without weaking the cup.

You don't even have to make them "sealed" like the VS. They're so simply designed inside that anyone who can turn a screwdriver and an adjustable wrench can break it down, clean it and re-lube them in less than half an hour.

For guys who want a bail, you could design the 704/710/712 so the bail only flips manually, like the Saltiga's. I can do it now by using the manual conversion kit, if I wanted a 704 with a bail that only flips by hand. I prefer the pure manual pick-up, but using the piece of the conversion kit that locks down the external bail trip, and removing the bail spring, you can have a "manual bail" instead of a pick-up.

The biggest beef guys have with Van Staal, besides the price, is the costly "annual service", and the difficulty in self-servicing them. I'm telling you, with mine and John's tweaks to the 7-series Spinfishers, you'd put a big dent in VS sales. We're out there fishing with the hard cores, and we listen. Penn management should listen, too. I know the surfcasting market is kind of a niche one, but the potential to sell these "Penn Staal" dreams is there ;)

Brent, print all this out and take it to management, your company should listen hard to this advise, they could spend thousands of dollars and up in market research, and not come up with advise as good as what's been written here.
Build them like the above recommendations, and watch them fly.

Man years ago, a top executive at Motorola decided to actually listen to an employee and the company took offfrom there.
Many years ago, top executives at Sony said that they will CREATE a market and people will comply. That was a big FLOP. It was only until they looked at what the market wanted (read: Unmet Needs) that they succeeded.

If people at Penn would listen to what the majority of anglers are asking for, and have a little PASSION, Penn would be an All-Star company.

The company has been sitting on its laurels for too long. Oldsmobile was first, Buick wil be next. Don't follow the corwd, do something about it. Improve your reels!!

Brent,
Are the 704 and 706Z going to remain the same? Is production going to be decreased on these?

Thanks,

Rich

Penn Spinning Reels Addressed
 

TO address the Spinning Reel issue, the SPinfisher SS reels (graphite bodies) were addressed, reevalauated, and tweaked, and revisted, and so an and so forth. What happened was the new management was tired of the band-aids being applied, and even more tired of the headaches...we needed a Spinfisher SS that works; result, the SSg that features 5 bb + one-way roller (anything more in a spinning reel is marketing, not performance related). Unfortunately, things do not happen overnight; but it takes time to design, build, test, tweak, test again and manufacture.

THe SSg is balanced, smooth, and is genuinely a nice spinning reel. THat being said, its update was about 10 years overdo. The one thing I quickly learned when I first came aboard Penn two years ago, was how the past always haunts you. THe problems everyone is experiencing with their SS spinning reels are well known, and we have listened and adapted. THis was the new management acting when they improved upon the reel, not the old management.

If you want to sell your customers a great reel, try the Penn Slammer. The Slammers are one of the finest spinning reels on the market. Take a look at the drag (under the spool for those not familiar with the reel), and you will find that largest drag surface on just about any spinning reel. As far as being built, the Slammer is constructed for trophy fish; oversized main shaft to reduce the chance for a big cow to bend the shaft when the spool is extended, all metal construction (no body flex under severe loads), and 5+1 marine grade-stainless steel ball bearings. MikeCC, if you will never fish with a Penn spinning reel again, than I do feel bad for you as the Slammer is one of the nicest fishing reels around. And yes, I have fished with just about everything out there (Stella, Sustain, VS, Daiwa).

As far as where the reels are built, if the new SSg reels are able to stand on their own against foreign competitors, than why would the argument not to sell or buy Penn based on the fact that they are not made in the US be valid? Aren't our competitors all foreign companies?? There are no more US spinning reel companies left. Penn was the last to manufacture, or at least in any quantity, spinning reels in the US. If Penn is still a US company (don't worry, we still are) and you are arguing for made in the US, than why favor foreign competitors? I do not understand.

Best regards,
Brent

Couldn't Agree More
 

DO you think five years ago, a manager from Penn would have taken the time to read, write, and reply to message boards. I know the old company was high on their horse. I can't say that of those that are in place now. Here I am reading the good, the bad, and the ugly about Penn and getting fired up over some of the commentary. Great thing about it, is I am in a position to do something about it and to incorporate the useful (both the good, bad, and the ugly) into improvements. Trust me when I say that many of the comments will be voiced in future meetings.

Good thing that the management team in place is hungry and not afraid of change. In addiiton PASSION, there will also be HARD WORK, failed attempts, good news, and bad news. In the end, there will be a company taking back its good name.

Thanks,
Brent

I think Penn is one of those classic cases of a company trying to market a product in the "middle" ...

...between lower-end and high-end reels.

And losing share to both. :rolleyes:

OUCH!!!

MikeCC, How about this for believing: Within five years, Penn will regain any lost ground from the past 15 year hiatus and move to the top of the food chain once again. Don't worry, there are still many that believe in Penn, and this includes Dealers up and down and around the coast. And as far as believing, Penn believes in Dealers that believe in us.

Here we are, launching new, improved, and revolutionary products and/or accessories; not really the sign of a company that does not believe in itself. What about the new Penn Dura-Drag, the Baja Special, the 118 new rods that we designed for 2005, the new fishing line that we launched this January, the new XXXX and XXXX-X that we can't talk about yet? I don't get the impression that we don't believe in ourselves, quite the contrary...
BK

I have a 560 Slammer and when I first used the reel I really liked it. Was very smooth and seemed to have a good drag. Maybe it is just me but whenever I dunk this reel, the drag is almost non-existant. One thing I think would have been a good idea is to have put a bronze main gear on the slammer instead of whatever that metal is on there now. I broke a couple of teeth on the main gear this past season.

Again, please feel free to email with specific questions.

Thanks for the commentary and opportunity to reply. THere will always be those that hate, disagree with everything we are doing, and have nothing but negative to say. Great, bring it on; Penn can't be everything to everyone. As long as we are making reels/rods/products that I can personally say I would fish with, I'm a happy camper. Have a great season, and tight lines to all.

Looking forward to some emails with specific questions.

Best regards,
Brent

And a big horrah for Penn! In China, it is estimated by many that of the 10 million children out of school, over 5 million are working in factories! Labor cost will drop, prices will go up and we get :bshake: :af: IMO, you sold your soul to the devil :devil2:

Do you own any Ticas? Guess where they are made?

Penn's a little late to the game outsourcing their manufacturing to the Chinese. :bshake:

Not sure why the drag would disappate when dunked, as you should have a sealed drag knob, and with the drag under-the-spool, there is much less chance for water to intrude. Check to see if the drab knob has a small gasket, if not, I would recommend picking up another one from your local Penn Dealer or call our Parts department. If you have the gasket, I'd then check to make sure the drag plate is screwed down. Other than that, I don't have an answer.

I guess I should also find out, are you wetsuiting with the reel, or is this an occassional wave breaking over you that is causing this to occur. If wetsuiting, I would recommend a drag lube that will help keep water from instruding. I would also disassemble the reel after each trip, and rebuild, as the Slammer is not a water proof reel like the Van Staal.

As far as the main gear, I believe it is a hardened naval bronze, so I am not sure why there would be any problems. Without seeing the reel, or the condition is was in, I am working blind, so I won't try to guess what the issue might be. Has this been repaired already? If not, I would love to have it sent to me for evaluation.

Feel free to get back to me at your convenience.
BK