boy it wouls really suck if you were innocent wouldnt it??? :yak:

:rotf3: Eben is the man....always get's us all back on track in our threads.

Where does "common sense" play into this arguement? Geneva Convention or not....who cares? Here are the FACTS:

1. These terrorrists (radical Islamists, Muslins, and Al-Quaeda) are NOT a recognized nation. They come from many countries, and only share one thing in common -- their radical interpretation of their religion makes them beleive the West are the evil infidels, and they beleive they have a moral obligation to kill all Westerners.
2. They are training an Army of people every day to kill Americans.
3. They have declared war on America -- many, many times.
4. They have attacked America a number of times (embassies, 9/11, cruise ships - Achillie Lauro (sp?), etc).
5. They have killed thousands of Americans.
6. They will not stop until either they are all dead or we are all dead - IN THEIR OWN WORDS.

So, wouldn't common sense dictate that we do whatever we can to win this war now, and debate the "philosophies" of what we did after the war? If we do it the other way around, we might not be alive later on to have any discussions. I never understood the Geneva Convention -- or any conventions that try to put "rules" around wars. In reality who in their right minds would care about "good decurum" when they are about to be killed and wiped off the face of the earth? If you knew you where about to be killed, would you not prevent it because you thought you might be violating some convention?

Frankly, war is hell -- and IMO there are no rules in hell. Those of us looking to apply "rules" and "good behavior" during war time are destined to loose in war. IMO, we should be as brutal to them as they are to us. And once we eradicate them, then we can go back to being "nicey-nice". As for our Founding Father's, they rounded up many Torries on a regular basis without cause. The key to victory is not in defeating your enemy but it is in defeating your enemy's strategy (Tsun Tsu - The Art of War).

Sure, some might say that acting as brutal as them would make us as evil as they are, but I disagree. And here is the difference: We at least have the decency to go back to being civilized people after war, and act like barbarians only during war time. These terrorist people would still be looking for the next group of people to kill.

I sometimes think the people who are looking to treat everyone "fairly" are making the mistake of projecting our values onto everyone else -- so I ask, would they treat our prisoners according to the Geneva Convention? I don't think so. And as for me, I will always side with the men and women who have died -- and are fighting today -- for my freedom and the freedom, protection and safety of my children. Let's stop hamstringing our military - let them do their job. It would be done quicker, and ultimately a lot less lives would be lost on both sides of the ledger.

Do I wish we lived in a world where everyone obeyed International Laws and acted according to generally accepted rules of decency? Sure I do. But unfortunately we don't.

i do not support OBL's views, I'm just repeating what I read:

HR: I've read OBL's open letter to the US a half dozen times.
In it he says he wants us to leave the middle east and israel to stop killing palestinians and he'll stop.

In it he also says if we do not meet his conditions he'll continue ordering attacks on the US.

But yes, it also says he thinks we're psychotic and women blahblahblahblah all his psycho religiousbabble is nuts.

So blah, like I said, it all sucks.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't.

So then let's do it and end it all sooner rather then later, IMO.

Then millions of innocents die because of a few.
Its all retarded.
All of it just makes me sad.

But I do especially hate one thing...

The media.

Anyone who would let terrorist scum live and train in their country are not "innocent" people IMO. That is something we all need to come to grips with, and in my judgement, something that no one wants to address. Iraq needs to get their borders in control and start preventing terrorists from entering their country. If they can't do this, then they are going to pay the price of American bombs. Nothing would make the US happier then to have secure borders around every Middle East country so this way we can start holding the governments of these countries responsible for the actions of their citizens.

Think of the pshychology....if you were an Iraqi living in Iraq your entire life, and you were oppressed your entire life, and if you hated your government all these years, and then the USA comes in and frees you -- wouldn't you use the very first opportunity you had to get the HELL OUT OF THERE.

Why aren't more people leaving Iraq now that it is free? IMO it is because while most Iraqis detested Saddam they still think the West are evil infidels. So are they innocent? I don't know.

its just so unfortunate that our world has come to all this...my heart and prayers go out to all those in london.

I think - for me - a better word then "unfortunate" is "shame" -- because we, as a species, made CONSCIENCE decisions to make this world the way it is. "Unfortunate" (to me) by definition implies a certain amount of luck, or randomness, or "fortune".

Our world is f****d up by design because governmental egos made it so -- and that is a shame. Why don't our governments do what they are supposed to do and make this world a better place?

But then again, one man's (or government's) definition of better, and another man's (or government's) definition of better can be radically different (e.g. Mr. Bush vs. Mr. Heussein).

Profits.... its all about profits. :rtfm:

:( :(

and if anyone doesnt believe me, look into what bush thinks about global warming and the G-8 convention. Profits win over saving our planets sensitive ecosystems. :( :yak:

So, in your opinion, is Capitalism ultimately evil because it makes us change our priorities so that we eventually all become money-centric?

ummm capatilism is money-centric.

Is it evil??? that all depends who is making the money :devil:

Heres the bottom line.....These Muslim extremists are cold blooded murders and we must wipe them all out somehow. Given the chance they would gladly come into my house and yours and take a knife to you and your kids throats and not feel any remorse as they watch you die. We;ve seen this first hand and its %$%$%$%$ing sick. this is what we are dealing with here. We CANNOT talk to these people and work something out, pulling out of Iraq and the entire middle east will not stop anything. They want us ALL dead. Why some of you people dont get this is beyond me. And why you dont want to do anything about these people is even more sickening. Oh just do what OBL wants and he will leave us alone....Not a friggen chance idiots. These are the Nazis of this time. Thats the best way to put it.They ALL must be killed and thats final. If you want to sit back and try and make excuses for why they hate us go right ahead.....you CANNOT justify what these %$%$%$%$ers are doing to us and the good people of London and Spain and elsewere. Some of you people have more hatred for W than you do for the terrosits who will come into your house and slice your childs throat. Wake up people and get a friggen clue as to what kind of people we are dealing with here.

Who you gonna kill there Skippy...1.2 Billion People?

It's a bit more complicated that that :rtfm:

-spence

:yak4: :yak4: :yak4: yep :mad:


and you are correct as well spence. come on now skippy, a.k.a. adolf give us a break :whackin:

back to the original thread. it can happen here with the large populace of muslims in detroit and brooklynn there may be a few with terrorist ties.
i beleive that a terrorist is a someone who targets innocent civilian populations and inflicts death and destruction on such to promote their cause. anyone who does so should be identified and destroyed no questions asked. this should be done to benifit ALL of mankind ALL over the world.

like. oh wow dude :uhoh:


that's so heavy..... :rotf3: :rotf3: :rotf3:


wake up and live... it's a dangerous world... it can happen here but maybe it will happen there ? I don't know. I like that.... "I don't know"....

but I am not saying your wrong afterhours

just goofing on the severity of the statement....

oooooohhh eeexcuuuseee me bw, did'nt mean to insult your intellect. just stating my thoughts as simple as they may be. bet you don't know a lot- no i'm wrong you know it all.

nice response there afterhours keep up the personal attacks


where did everyones sense of humor go ?

this issue is SO serious. OMG I am SO angry. I want SO to kill some terrorists

I hate them SO much, like :gf:

you should talk.

some examples please ?

Hey...I am going to a cookout this afternoon and fishing all night long! :bounce: :btu:

sure- most recent - this post

i seem to remember your "stupid pu--ies comment"

i'm done with you.

stupib p***ssies doesn't sound to "personal" to me.

after you walk see if you can understand that you are avoiding substantiating things because you are wrong.

I have made plenty of personal attacks in my life but NONE were against you

please grow up :rotf3:

Prudence and common sense dictate that it will happen here again, as well as tells us that most difinately there are terrorist cells already here in the US. As long as we have an open border, there will be no way of preventing this from happening here again.

We (USA) is holding on to a vision of the kind of country we want to be (e.g. open borders, freedom for all), but the terrorists are making that vision unrealistic. As long as there is an organized terrorists threat against the USA we will need to alter our vision of who we are as a country. Once the organized threat is eliminated, then we can go back to being the "open border" and "freedom for all" kind of country we want to be.

During war time things change. Eminent domain, for example. Did you know that during war time the US Government (Millitary) has the right to take any personal property they need, as well as mandate any company in the US to stop doing what they are doing and begin manufacturing goods for the US Military? Where are all the ACLU people complaining about that? It happened extensively during WWII.

The differnce is in the US and UK our defense contractors are actually private firms. I can share stories with you about the US Gov't funnelling money to these firms during peace times in an effort to make sure they stay viable for war time. Ever heard of phantom projects? But the Governemtn doesn't have top only rely on these firms -- they can force ANY company to begin production on behalf of the US Military.

My point is simply that during war time, the rules change. Can it happen here again? Not only can it, but there is NO WAY IT CAN'T. I am surprised we haven't had a number of "copycat" bombings by some of our "native-grown" lunatics already -- and I am NOT referring to Native Americans. The ginie is out of the bottle forever.......... :(

I am retracting this thread....you can all take your ball and leave my sand box now! :eek:

:bc: :bc: :bc:

:crying: :crying: :crying:


:rotf3: :rotf3: :rotf3:

Repeat after me...."america can not solve all the problems in this world"

we should focus on our own problems. like improving our roads and bridges, bettering our schools, and heaven forbid we clean up our enviromental messes.

Huh? You mean that terrorists killing us isn't our problem....?? Why worry about the roads if we are all going to be dead if we don't address the immediate threat to our country first?

:yawn:


:rotf3: :rotf3: :rotf3:


you're absolutely right HR.

guerrila warfare. we, and others, can never let our guard down anymore.

everytime we do ? :whackin:

:hang:

You can make a pretty good argument that a host of domestic issues kill far more Americans every year than terrorisim ever will. Doesn't mean terror doesn't need to be addressed, but our Nation's priorities are certianly out of whack in many ways. You've said as much yourself.

-spence

You can mark this down and take it to the bank:

Before the year 2015, a nuclear device is going to be detonated somewhere in an urban area of the US, killing at minimum half a million people, either immediately or due to the after effects. I flat-out guarantee it. Sure as the sunrise.

It's inevitable. And I don't pretend to be smart enough to know how to prevent it.

The aftermath of that ain't gonna be pretty. For anyone.

If that's the case Mike (and I tend to agree) then why have we don't little to nothing to secure our borders, ports and old Soviet nukes since 9/11?

Doesn't add up.

-spence

Yes, Spence, I agree. There are many things our country should have been addressing all these years. Trust me, I am no great cheerleader of any country that is as wealthy as our's but still wont address hunger, healtcare, poverty, global warming, etc. right here in our own country. I'd be interested in your list of domestic issues that But given our limited resources don't you think that our first priority should be staying alive another day so that we can eventually address all our domestic issues someday? Doesn't our survival come first?

I guess what it comes down to is that some people in this thread actually do believe the US is at war right now, while some others don't believe we are in a war. My feeling is those who do not think we are in a war right now are playing into the hands of the terrorirsits. I believe that the radicals in the Middle East PURPOSEFULLY did not use a country to attack the USA but rather used a group of non-nationals (i.e. read terrorists) to attack us. They know that when in a "traditional" war when one country fights another country - no one will ever beat the USA. So they changed the rules on us. And I do beleive the terrorists are government sponsored. These people may be evil, but they are not dumb.

But make no mistake about it -- we ARE in a war right now. And yes, we can argue all day along about where our resources should go in order to make for a better and safer USA. All of them need to be addressed. Just in what order?

For all the security that's been upped at the Cargo docks I can't help but wonder that that device might sail right under our noses in the keel of a cruising sailboat coming in from who knows where....



It could be detonated before it even reaches a port.

the whole scenario is scarey for sure Mike... :uhoh: :uhoh:

That is EXACTLY my point Spence. We in the USA need to CHANGE our vision of what the USA is all about UNTIL we end the terrorism threat.

Once that is accomplished, then we can go back to the "open society" vision we have for the USA.

When you have a perfectly good barrel of apples, and then you let a few bad apples in to the barrel, you stop letting any more apples into the barrel until the bad apples have been expelled or eliminated -- or else eventually the whole barrel spoils.

Exactly the wrong thing to do.

There's no reason why we can't deal with terrorisim without changing what makes America the best country in the world. The challenge is in putting aside partisan BS and electoral paranoia and working toward pragmatic and mindful solutions.

-spence