[QUOTE=Pete_G]I haven't been following this news story too closely, but "peppered with buckshot" as was reported by the ranch owner is whole lot different then having a piece of buckshot either in the proximity of your heart or migrating towards it and causing a heart attack.

Maybe it was just shock?
A firearm being fired close to you but not by you (outside of a range when you expect it) really gets the adrenaline going.
(I know)
The guy was 78.
Bird shot out of a 28 gauge at 30 yds. 90 feet.
That's about the end of the effective range of a shotgun; isn't it?

#^&#^&#^&#^& had a roast beef sandwich before the trip

can you believe that?? :hs:










:hf1:

so if this dude croaks from complications can they charge #^&#^&#^&#^& with involuntary manslaughter?

I don't really know anything about guns other then paintball guns. If there's penetration near or into his heart though I'd have to say that he was in the "effective range" of the weapon.

My only point was the intial description of "peppering", in my view, implies lack of penetration versus what we have here, a BB possibly lodged in his heart and others elsewhere.

No one seems to have really discussed how badly he was hit. They mention face, throat and chest, but not much else. Now we learn there was clearly penetration and I just find it odd we didn't really know that before. And since you say that he was standing at the extreme end of "effective range" yet we have serious penetration, I can't help but be a bit suspicious of the reported distance. It's just my nature...

Again, I haven't been following this too closely, I may have missed a more accurate description of what took place that was released a couple days earlier.

the acurate description
 

will never be truly accurate....

what was said was... just after he fired....

ok -> this is what we're going to say happened... :faga:

and as far as penetration your exactly right because the pellet lodged in his heart had to go thru hunting clothing first...

what scares me is ...in the event we lost our current president...
this BOZO would be the commander in chief...

Right on about the mainstream press...The press briefing at the Whitehouse looked pathetic yesterday, bitching and whining that they didnt know 5 minutes after it happened. Bunch of babies...Its not like they found out a week after the fact. It was less than a freakin day! Good god...the press sucks

Good point. For a BB to go that deep with heavy clothing on it definitely requires some serious velocity.

its the 2nd most important person in the US, shouldn't the American public be told? We had to hear about it 2nd hand. McClellan feels its ok for a private citizen to speak for the VP!!!

Its indicative of this administrations secretiveness and heavy handiness.

Doesn't anyone own a cellphone and couldn't they contact the police right away rather than wait 1 1/2 hours. If they know he was serious enough to be helicoptored to the hospital they should have called the authorities right away.

If they had a press conference and and told us there would be no story other than a few late night jokes.

Drs say he was hit with between 6 and 200 pellets.

here is interesting read:
 

Full of Holes
The gossip about Cheney's bad shot.
By Paul Burka
Posted Tuesday, Feb. 14, 2006, at 6:52 PM ET

Austin, TEXAS—The headquarters of Harry Whittington, the 78-year-old Austin lawyer who was shot by Vice President #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney in a hunting accident Saturday, is the nondescript 10-story Vaughn Building, located a block from the Texas Capitol in downtown Austin. Because of Whittington's lifelong Republican credentials, the building has always been a favorite of GOP politicos. Today, however, it has become ground zero for anyone trying to get the latest news about Harry's condition, as well as about what really happened on the Armstrong Ranch last Saturday morning.
Harry's office—he is always referred to by his first name here—is on the 10th floor, and many tenants have dropped in or called to inquire about how he's doing. None of the ones I spoke to want to be quoted by name, because many of them are questioning the official accounts of the accident. The place is aswirl in rumor and speculation, especially since Harry suffered what was described as a mild heart attack Tuesday morning. Keep in mind that hunting, especially quail hunting, is deeply embedded in the political culture of this state, and invitations to hunt on prestigious spreads like the Armstrong Ranch are among the most prized of political perks.

The talk in the Vaughn Building centers around three questions:

Who was in charge of the hunt? As many Americans are learning for the first time, quail hunting is dangerous—arguably the most dangerous type of hunting. Participants, usually a threesome, follow dogs through thick brush and tall grass seeking what Karl Rove, a dedicated quail hunter, calls "the wily bob white." When the quail flush, hunters are surrounded by panicked birds. Each hunter is supposed to fire forward, but in the adrenalin spike of the flush, it is easy to lose your bearings. That is why it's good practice for someone who is not shooting to be in charge of the hunt. The hunters are supposed to maintain a horizontal line as they move forward, but this is easier than it sounds in rough country. When someone falls behind—someone, for instance, like Harry Whittington—the person in charge calls a halt until the line forms up again. Whittington, as we know, dropped back to pick up a bird. This happens all the time in quail hunting; the question is, why did the other two hunters keep going? Perhaps, veteran quail hunters are speculating, no one was in charge on the Armstrong Ranch, leaving the three hunters in #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney's party on their own while hostess Katharine Armstrong watched from the car that had transported them.

At what range was Harry Whittington hit? The official story is that the blast from the vice president's shotgun hit Whittington at a distance of 30 yards. Hunters at the Vaughn Building are skeptical. The hunt took place on a cold, windy afternoon. Whittington and his fellow hunters were probably wearing warm clothing—say, a jacket and a flannel shirt. Cheney was using a 28-gauge shotgun, a smaller-diameter firearm with pellets smaller than BBs. Whittington's friends question whether the pellets could have penetrated his layers of clothing and skin at that range. Yet two pellets lodged against his larynx, another was in his liver, and another migrated into the heart muscle, causing the heart attack. The pattern of wounds was between the lower chest and the forehead, a pretty tight zone for shot of 30 yards. If the range was considerably less than 30 yards, then it is likely that Whittington's injuries were worse than the initial statement by Katharine Armstrong indicated. (The blast "knocked him silly," but "he was fine.")

Whose fault was it? If there is anything that Harry's friends at the Vaughn Building are angry about, it is not the shooting itself but the attempt by White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan to place the blame on the victim. It's the shooter's duty to know what he is shooting at and where his companions are. A shooting accident is always the fault of the shooter. Always.

The scary thing is..
If the guy had died we NEVER would have heard about it... he would have 'had a heart attack' during the hunt....
Remember... the Truth is out there :D

hadnt heard the numbers pauls
 

a 28 gauge shot gun fired at a range of thirty yards???
thats ninty 90 feet....and he's hit chest high with 200 pellets
like this...??? :huh:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...nob1/shoot.jpg

think about it....
 

he'd have to be firing level or below level where your not supposed to be shooting when your in a group hunt... it makes no sense..this story...was he shooting them at what ...5 feet off the ground....:huh:
sounds like total bull s h i t lies
but thats just my opinion
my sixth sense....
is telling me ....cover-up....
and i have a very strong
sixth sense.

Cheney v.s. Kennedy
 

At least Cheney and his buddies didn't leave the guy behind in the field to die...............

If they wanted to cover it up from the start they could have. Just say another hunter shot the guy. But the less than 24 hours they came out and said Cheny shot the the guy. Yeah such a big cover up. They came out and admitted what happened. If they are trying to cover it up and hide the facts why would they have told the media!? Must be one of those vast right wing conspiracys.

Yes Kennedy is a real scumbag...he told NOBODY. But he's a liberal and a Kennedy so he gets a pass....

No. Absolutely not.
But then again, you're not the Vice President Of The United States.

There is much controversy surrounding this issue. It's still unclear whether the sandwich was made with fresh or previously frozen roast beef, and whether it had mustard or mayo on it.
There are even reports surfacing now that it may not even have BEEN roast beef, but some sort of luncheon meat.

:rolleyes:

I'm starting to agree with Raven. Too many things don't make sense. At Cheney's age, and from the pictures, wearing ear protection, his reaction time is such that he hears a flushed bird (he couldn't have just sensed it by ESP or some other man-bird telepathy), and he's so quick he can turn, locate it and shoot it less than five feet off the ground?
I can't vouch for it being true, but I saw some guy who was supposed to be hunt coordinator or organizer and he said the first rule they make sure hunters know is not to shoot level or below, this ensures the safety of the dogs, too, and not to fire unless they can identify it as a bird. Leno's sarcastic, but usually his comments are based on on some fact and he came out with an outrageous story about how the police did show up to see what was going on and were asked to come back later, and they left.

New Texas bumper sticker:

I'd rather hunt with Cheney

Than drive with Kennedy

:rotf3: :rotf2:

Ohhh, but NOW it's funny (OK, sheet, that was actually pretty funny)...

Skip - Kenedy gets a pass by some (and a lot of Mass voters for some reason, enough to keep him in though often unopposed).

Funny, I can't think of many people that I know who voted for Kenedy, DEM or not, but I'm wondering how many are in the older crowd. Like many of my BIRC aquaintances that loved the Kennedy "Dynasty"

I heard once from a MV legend that there is a real good bass hole within yards of where the Lincoln went off the road...

this quail hunt reminds me
 

of a time that myself and a bunch of guys
were skeet shooting in a sand pit out in
Rochester mass ....getting in
some pre duck hunting season...practice.

well everyone was trying to outshoot each other!
there was a sudden friendly competition ok...
as to "who" could shoot the clay pigeon "first"
out of the trap.... and it got closer and closer
to the skeet trap....like 5 feet...til we were ...YELLIN...
...PULL -> BLAM!

well , we decided to put doubles in the skeet trap to
make it a bit more unpredictable...and was it ever.
I was almost shot in the process...when the two clay
pigeons rolled off each other and one came directly
at me...

and all i saw was, all of their gun barrels swinging
in my direction so i tossed my 12 guage and dived into a
sand pit hole....because it was just seconds after the trap
sprung....that the guns would fire.

now listening to cheneys story it makes even less sense
because he's saying harry was standing in a gully so that he
wasnt fully visable....so that means hes shooting lower than
horizontal...also he stated that he was alone with just one
other hunter ...so how did that lady witness everything....

sounds so hokey...

I think he should get a commendation or something for shooting a lawyer. That is something I have wanted to do for some time.

Conspiracy
 

I think there was another shooter on a mesquite knoll :huh: :smokin:

Doesn't it bother anyone that they were essentially poaching? They both were cited for not having upland bird stamps. Kinda like fishing for stripers in the EEZ no?

Depending on the choke used it is quite conceivable that the shot was at 30 yards. The folowing picture is a 12 Gauge Gun - 28 ga insert
30 yds - 3/4 oz. #9 Shot - LM Choke
1225 fps - 69% pellet count 30 in. circle
What that is essentially is a 12 gauge shotgun with barrels inserted to make it into a 28 gauge shotgun, using a Light Modified choke 69% of the pellets hit within the 30" circle at 30 yards at a muzzle velocity as high as or higher than most handgun rounds, including 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45. This is muzzle velocity, not energy, there is not enough information to get an accurate energy. I would say that the pellets were coming straight on , not arced in like you would usually see. Therefore they would have more energy.

All you armchair quaterbacks decide for yourself, but if unless you have never had an "Accident" with any thing, powertool, car, bike, kitchen knife etc. you probably should'nt judge. An accident is an accident no matter how you slice it.

This is all I have to say bout that!!!