Yea, before Bush there were frequent terrorist attacks...:rolleyes:

Does it mean a change in leadership and attitude?

The problem with our policy isn't bad intel or some casual mistakes, it's an idiology that's not in synch with reality.

I'd add a lack of conscience as well, but I'll try to keep this on the level ;)

-spence

It's not really even about a "plan" as much as it is about a process...

From David Cameron, the UK's Conservative Party leader:

The Bush Administration has centralized power to a tiny group influenced heavily by a radically progressive and militarized idiology that has complete control.

To this end they have fought the war on their terms, and in doing so silenced the diverse voices that would typically call attention to potential pitfalls, disasterous misconceptions and obvious historical precident.

These perversions of objective thought have not only hurt our actions in Afghanistan, but led us foolishly into an Iraqi scenario without any real exit strategy.

These perversions of objective thought are uniting a billion Muslims rather than dividing the extreme from the mainstream.

They try to convince Americans that our longstanding International treaties, our own rule of law and civil liberties are not existent if we're dead...so they migt need to be sacrificed because terrorists hate us for our freedoms?

What the %$%$%$%$?

We need a united voice that will lead the world by example, and today we have anything but.

Stay true to this course and the solution will find it's way.

-spence

I don`t think we should have gone there. I`d rather have seen all that money go into more highly trained and better equipped special forces for more precise targets of terrorism backed up of course with massive air support where appropriate.

Whimp :devil2:

-spence

Perhaps I`m jaded and more but all this debate about political nuances for me is too much blah blah blah. I do believe the real truth is more perfect and simply said even if its nature is fully chaotic.


Remember: all life is an illusion..... or if you prefer....So it goes .... K.V.


Dark... have been my dreams of late :hee:



An aging warrior once said.... I am now dead.

from a Lou Dobbs editorial on CNN today. Good stuff
The American people cannot be reasonably asked by this president or this secretary of defense to "stay the course" without evidence of a strategy to successfully prosecute the war and defeat the radical Islamist enemy. Otherwise, why are we there? The loyal opposition on Capitol Hill cannot reasonably ask the American people to elect them without articulating a clear new direction and offering a concrete plan for victory. Otherwise, why do we even have a loyal opposition?

Both the White House and Congress should be demanding accountability from our generals who have failed so far to succeed in destroying our enemies. Not a single general has been fired for failing to lead our men and women to victory against the insurgencies of Iraq and Afghanistan. I believe it is time for all Americans -- Republicans, Democrats and Independents -- to demand such accountability.

I, for one, do not want to hear another of our generals urge the American people to be patient. Patience favors the enemy. And our generals have the responsibility to our brave troops and this nation to deliver certain victory, and that responsibility rests first and foremost with the commander in chief.

Do we set a deadline for the Generals to achieve Victory before we fire them? Should we give them a year, six months? What factor determines how long a War must be? Have we ever given deadlines to Generals as to long how long they have to win a war? If we are mandating the length of Wars lets make them real short, less casualties.

I think so, do we give them unlimited funds? resources?
I am a project manager, I have a budget and resources to get the job done. I need to show results and keep to a budget. Shouldnt we hold the generals to the same? How would you feel if you were a solider? wouldnt you want to know there is a plan and the people in charge are accountable?

If it takes indefinite funds and resources to win a war then thats what it takes. What are you going to do surrender because your over budget? This is Apples to bananas. The ramifications of losing a War in no way equates to missing a cost budget. I know several soldiers quite well and they are very aware of their plan and work to that plan every day. They also understand that plan is fluid and requires constant adjustment. Any idea how long we fought an insurgency in Germany post WWII?

If it takes indefinite funds and resources to win a war, it is poorly planned war and one that cannot be sustained since there is no such thing as indefinite resources. All I am saying is there needs to be clearly outlined goals. Runsfiled should have to say to Congress that on 1/15/XXXX the Iraqui army will be trainined, equiped and deployed. Every month leading up to that time, he should have to report on the progress, demonstrate success and how close he is to acheiving the goal. If he doesn not meet the goals, he should be out of a job, period. The generals should be held to the same. I really cannot beleive anyone would argue with that?

If its simply a matter of accountability I'm sure we are all in agreement. I think the military chain of command is probably unsurpassed in the area of accountability and if I'm not mistaken miltary leadership in Iraq has been changed at least once. Accountability in Government........not so much. Nothing new there. My only point was Wars do not have deadlines. And we don't pack it in and give up the fight because we missed budget. Basic principles of business dont meld well with the basic principles of fighting a war.

Followers of Sun Tzu would disagree
:)

Yes, war is business (and the other way around)...

I pretty much agree with Dobbs, although I don't think we can hold generals accountable for the big picture stuff as the civilian leadership is really running the show.

The administration has been very careful in how they articulate their goals so they can be easily manipulated on the fly ;)

What really exacerbates the problem is how our policy seems to always be justified on worse case assumptions, and always planned with only best case assumptions!

I think the American people are pretty sick and tired of the "shut up, we know what we're doing" rhetoric we hear day in and day out.

Perhaps when they show some results people will listen, but more "stay the course" and "be patient" when it's clear they're neither objective or competent just doesn't make any sense.

-spence