I was waiting for someone to say that. I'm pro gun - but that is ridiculos :lasso:

I was thinking of if even just one proffessor had the right to carry, maybe it would not have escalated.

the whole thing is sad

the more screwed up this world gets, the more these things will happen unfortunately.
:(

One or two professors on campus wouldn't make much difference and a student gun-free dorm makes a little sense (guns & alcohol?? - bad mix). BUT campus security should be armed and perhaps a better response system in place. Horse is out of the barn unfortunately...

what is the minimum military enlistment age in the U.S. and the U.K.?

Oh, you mean we can't TRUST 17/18 year-olds to handle weapons of mass destruction and defend our country?

I understand the discomfort factor involved with armed college students. But then we should raise the minimum age for cops and soldiers to 21, right?

btw, the minimum age for a valid resident or non-resident concealed handgun permit to be issued in VA is 21.

there is no info out yet...but my gut tells me that the shooter did not have a concealed carry permit. anyways, he was wearing a tactical vest, so it was obvious (at least to the trained eye) that he was armed.

the shooter killed 2 people in a dorm ... and then two hours later popped into a classroom and killed 30 more like fish in a barrel.

again, if there was just ONE person in that classroom who could have fired back (a professor, a maintenance man, if not another 21 year old licensed student), there might have been a different ending here.

not to make fun
 

of this Tradgedy

but after just reading that.... ben

i'm dying to see the movie now...
where everyone is talking in class
and in busts this shooter a-hole
threatening to shoot everybody
and about six students pull their pistols
and blow that piece of $hit away....
Blam blam blam blam blam blam DONE!

ATF just grilled the dealer for 3 hours.

Guy shot up the school with a Glock 19 and a Walter P-22, purchased 35 days ago. The s/n was allegedly ground off the Glock, but he had the receipt for the gun in his pocket. :confused:

shooter's last name is reportedly Cho. That pegs him as a Korean. Bastard.

I hear that its cool to talk gun control and fight in threads about something that is a tragedy and really has no need to be fought over.

These kids were lined up and shot execution style.
Go to SOL if you want to fight over gun control.

There is a huge difference between 17 - 18 civilians and 17 -18 yr old trained soldiers.

My view is security guards need guns to be effective.

And Charles Whitman was an honorably discharged United States Marine. Born and bred white boy. You have a point or just running your mouth?

Ben - Apples & Oranges - this is an issue of responsible weapons training. If the 17/18 year old kids have the proper training - like army grunts that have gone through basic - then their AIT - then unit training, all under the leadership of older corporals and sargeants. Even an adult would have been hard pressed to go up against this well armed psycho.



Liquid - while I agree that this thread should not be about gun control why would you direct him somewhere else? Are we incapable of discussing this? You and Ben are about as far apart politically as anyone here but you don't have (too) many people suggesting you go elsewhere to soapbox your opinions...

eyewitness accounts contradict this - the guy came into the classroom and just started shooting.

1. training or no advanced training, an armed professor or student present in the classroom has better odds of taking out this bad guy than unarmed sheeple are.

2. Virginia concealed handgun permit holders are REQUIRED to have some training before their permit is issued.

eek, sorry Likwid, I'm bouncing between three different forums.

Geraldo Rivera incorrectly identified the shooter as a 24-year old Chinese national, and pointed to that person's blog. That person is not the shooter and has said so on his blog (he's still alive, I guess that tells you something).

The real shooter's parents and immediate family will be overwhelmed with shame for this despicable act.

No preparartion by the security forceat the school would have put then where needed at the time needed. they could all be Rambos but if they aren't in the exact room at that moment , no chnace. the idea that everyone should be armed to defend themselves in this kind of situation has some merit. i always thought that if i was in the victims spot , I;'d want to at least try to shoot back if i had a weapon.

On the other hand , 33 dead by a nut case in a rare even is better than 500 dead , 2 per night , as people blast eachother at drunken college partys over sports , broken hearts , last weeks cardgame , etc.

I honestly don't think there is anything that can be done to guard against the lone rabid gunman. He gets to pick his target. If he's at all lucid , he's going to avoid any security etc when he chooses where he will go balistic.

yup it was a 23 year-old South Korean national.

confirmed 9mm and .22. likely only used the 9mm.

Remember, a lot of these "Law-Abiding" Citizens that you want to arm are also the Same ones that are doing Keg-Stands and Jello-Shots on an almost nighty basis.

Tell me that ain't a recipe for disaster in itself

true, but what about professors, teaching assistance and other employees?

also, it is unlawful for concealed handgun permittees to be under the influence of alcohol/drugs and be armed. most people who value their permits understand this.

the same goes with cars. you don't booze and drive cars at the same time. most responsible people who value their driving privileges understand this.

and by the way, i slept with a loaded .357 mag under my bed in school. no problems whatsoever.

I agree with you there....No problem with the Professors and responsible adults having them....its just the kids that make me nervous.

I don't think to many students major in Common Sense 101 these days....although they should

but remember
the guys in the military do too .
I dont agree with arming the students , arm the employees ! let them carry to work . who is in the halls ,the basement , all over the campus and most have an idea whats right and wrong . da employees . they even know how to get into buildings with chained doors . service tunnels

I have very strong feeling about all of this. I agree with some and disagree with others. Guns dont belong in the hands of anyone without proper training and respect.
There is a lot that can be learned from all this. Dont waste it.
The highest price has already been paid by 31 inocent lives. Now make decisions with this very expensive knowledge so it isnt likely to happen again. He (the gunman) couldnt be stopped prior to this, but it should not have taken so long to end it.

(this is the tamed down version)

But they don't have their guns with them...they are locked up in the Armory when they are out partying on town.

....and Mommy and Daddy aren't going to bail out some enlisted dude when he does something stupid with it.

what happens to a guy in the Miltary if he gets caught drunk on Watch.....he'll be paying for it for quite awhile

No gun control in the world would've stopped this kid from doing this, he clearly had a vision in his mind of commiting mass murder, regalrdless of the gun laws, this kid would've found a way to gain access to a firearm and commit murder. If someone wants a gun that bad they'll find a way to get one, regardless of how tough the gun laws are.

So all the people calling for more gun control just dont get it, this kid would've found a way to get a gun regardless.

Rot in hell you %$%$%$%$ing murdering bastard:mad: :realmad:

Just heard on the news that one of the kids murdered was from Lincoln, RI Hits even closer to home now.

There's no way the legal carry is at 1%. 1% may have permits, but that doesn't mean 1% carry.

I have a permit and carry about 0.5% of the time. Someone could shoot up the office and my pistol would be safe and sound at home while I'm contemplating taking a pen to a gun fight. I don't think most people would carry to class - why would you need to?

I really don't think this a legal carry issue, other than to say we need more licensing and more actual legal carry. Even where legal, laws and society provide a strong disincentive.

CNN reported yesterday that the suspect was reportedly carrying a 9mm and 22mm pistol. That pretty much sums up their understanding of guns.

Sadly, there were at least 33 reasons yesterday to carry to class.

Nobody says you HAVE to CCW, but those willing to shoulder the burden (and it is a BURDEN) should be allowed to.

Gotta love Oleg Volk..

thought you'd recognize that, bill.

I knew people that partied on guard duty ( with 45's ) , on manuevers with 45's and m2 mg and in m60 tanks ( 105 mm (63 rounds ) 50 cal and 2 7.62 mg and more ammo you could shake a stick at . No partying in town with weapons and no mommy and daddy , but it still happened . today the younguns think differently and I blame todays parent

guns/permits/mental illness
 

I can tell you that the shooter could and probably did buy the weapons legally and was probably permitted. A resident alien can get a permit to carry for any number of reasons. I have issued two that I can recall recently.

I think since this guy was under treatment for depression the law should read or a law should be in place that a state and national check be done after giving a precription for treatment of depression or any other mental illness. All of these shootings have been done by people who are unfit mentally. While mental illness is certainly treatable guns and access to guns should be taken away until its amedical certainty the person has recovered.

We're looking at colleges now, so this situation is most disheartening as far as letting my teenager go too far away. But are there really folks out there who seriously think the threat will go away by arming the students? I'm wondering if that isn't a step backwards instead of making college campuses safer you're not turning them into Dodge City. I'm dealing with today's high school student right now, and while she's extremely intelligent, she is in no way, shape or manner anywhere near responsible enough to possess a gun, let alone have what it takes to use it, and have her glasses with her, and have the gun loaded and not in the bottom of her backpack in a situation where she might need to. She can't go a week without misplacing her glasses, driver's license, or cell phone and most of her friends are no better. There's got to be some other recourse than arming students and faculty, maybe something like sky marshalls dressed like students randomly walking around campus.

jimbo, nobody is saying your daughter HAS to carry a weapon.

Carrying a weapon lawfully carries a huge responsibility (as does driving a car lawfully).

It's not for everyone ... but the relatively few people who do (in VA we assume 1% of the population based on carry permit records, which are public...but maybe not for long) should be allowed to without hindrance.

Again, if you are uncomfortable with students carrying, can you argue with more mature folk like professors and employees and teaching assistants?

Did anyone notice how well all of the students spoke before the camera? How polite they were and even if they condemned/critisized someones job performance they were decent about it. VTech has a strong/large ROTC background and courses. The students seemed mature and had a good grasp of what had taken place.

One more thing, a gunmen bent on murder doesn't have his weapon holstered, its out and in the gunman's hand ready to perform. The law abiding citizen keeps his weapon holstered, probably with a saftey snap mechanism. If some pulls a gun on you you have no way of getting yours out to defend yourself. Any training states, distance first, then defense. Any officer who has survived a shooting will tell you he turned and ran first then while running drew his weapon. My point is how many college students are going to know what to do if faced with what the VTech students were faced with. How many without any real training would actually pull the trigger? I know people who are trained to pull the trigger that are incapable of doing so. I know that trainees in police academys when given thier weapons can't pull the trigger and were dismissed/fired.

The other point I can think of is suppose 20 of 30 students have weapons on them (most would be left in backpacks, which is an absurd thought, and not on there person) in a class. Someone comes into the room, gets the dropped on them and confiscates the 20 weapons from the carrying students. Now the gunman would have 22 weapons, not 2.

I know what you mean b-turbed but when this guy fires 27 rounds in under a minute in the first classroom thier is not much one can do. Stories of the heroic acts are starting to emerge. I am sure we will hear of students teachers who attempted to engage this puke and died.

BINGO!!! this covers it in a nutshell ,pardon the unintentional pun.
I got no problem with that.
Youre under a doctors care for depression, and on MEDS, you LOSE your right to your guns. PERIOND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Remember when TYSON beat up those senior citizens , cause the old guy cut him off on the road. IMAGINE if that bafoon had a gun at that time. He was so stoked on Zoloft he would have killed his own parents that day.
Since were pointing fingers at guns and all, what about the pharmaceutical companies, who make drugs which have "RAGE" & "MANIA"as a possible side effects???

swimmer, i think it highly unlikely that one person could disarm 20-30 people in a room. i wouldn't give up my gun - not that the shooter would ever know i was carrying one.

carrying a loaded pistol or revolver in a backpack or purse is an unsound and unsafe practice. you're responsible for whatever happens to that weapon. a loaded weapon should be on your person under your control (properly holstered). there are many many good options out there for deep concealment - be it a belly band, an ankle holster, or a tuckable IWB.

as far as a mental illness database - no such animal exists on a national level, i think. this is mostly a state thing.

problem is, you run into privacy challenges. secondly, not all mental illnesses should disqualify one from being able to have a firearm. it really depends on the individual. example: vietnam vet who is active LEO being treated for PTSD, but is still capable of CCW'ing.

i don't know how such a database would work, but don't think it would be a bad thing to have.

I hear you Bassturbed. Just offering up some fears I have with what you propose. I still like the idea that if your taking meds for depression you lose your weapons/permits.

that is the case in many states.

for what it's worth, question 12 f. on ATF 4473 is:

"Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective (which includes being adjudicated incompetent to manage your own affiars) or have you ever been committed to a mental institution?"

of course, if you really want the gun you're going to answer "no."

If one or more of those students and teachers had a gun and tried to use it would they have been any worse off? Even if they died anyway, they may have prevented the deaths of others. We teach people to be complacent in the face of threats, why didn't any of them try anything to defend themselves? Because they were taught not to! Never attack anyone! Christ they could have at least thrown a chair at him or at least tried to run away. A moving target is a lot harder to hit than one kneeling on the floor in front of you.

I heard on the radio that there was a 60+ year old jewish teacher who either himself survived the Holocast, or his father did? im not sure exactly .but anyway, he was a teacher, and he barracaded himself & his students into his classroom and although bullets were flying through the door he stood his ground. He is a true hero, if this info is correct. Noone in his class supposedly was killed.
Another student who also supposedly barracaded the door, but that was after the shooter killed 15 already in that classroom & left.
just very sad.

yes, that prof had major balls and i salute him.

bitter irony, to have survived the holocaust and then be killed yesterday.

That's assuming that the people you mentioned want to exercise their right to keep and bear arms. You can't force them too....so maybe most teachers and professors and othe remployees at the school are anti gun. You end up with a similar result. Then what, sue the school because someone went nuts and the teacher didn't provide the necessary protection he could have if he had been carrying?