NO nunca :bl:

Going to Canada
 

http://travel.state.gov/travel/tips/...onal_1170.html by car or train you only need a licence and birth certificate till 08 then you will need a passport We have a trip going up soon had to check all of this for the driver.

I found this info to counter the Gov't claim that rounding them up is too expensive. http://www.fairus.org/site/PageServe...suecentersf134

WHEN WHATS HER FACE BECOMES PRESIDENT iLLEGALS WILL HAVE MORE BENEFITS THAN ANYONE WHO WAS BORN HERE.:lossinit:

tHE ONLY THING ILLEGALS SHOULD GET IS A BUS TICKET TO THE BORDER.

cOME IN THE LEGAL WAY NO PROBLEM, ILLEGAL YOUR OUTA HERE.

As much as some people will fight and argue against the notion, illegal immigration is in my opinion, the single greatest economic threat this country faces. Today millions of criminal aliens are rallying for increased services and rights that they are not entitled to while waving the flag of a foreign country. Our Government on both sides has no intention of doing a damn thing about it for fear of offending a voting block and being labeled with the R word. Democrat or Republican, Americans need to unite on this issue before our votes are worthless.

This notion is absurd, and I'd argue not backed by any real facts. For all the drain on social services there's a huge offset in worker productivity and tax revenues.

The single greatest economic threat to this country is global disruption to energy.

-spence

actually the single greatest threat to our economy is george bush.

sorry had to throw that one out there :hihi:

LMAO....the only thing absurd is your dismissal of an opinion shared by many minds far greater than yours. Tell us exactly what that offset is or I'll just consider it more Moonbat drivel unsupported by fact.

It's all Bush's fault...:bl2:

spence is right. Think about it. Our country can do something to solve imigration problems, but look what happened when a nation threatened to sell their oil on the euro and not the US dollar??

Is this that HUGE offset you're talking about?

I agree our country can do something about the illegal immigration issue and we can also do something about dependence on foreign energy. Both pose serious threats until something is actually done about them.

magic wand
 

if you had a magic wand....

and with a wave of your hand you could
deport all illegal aliens out of this country
right back to brazil and mexico ect.

it would plunge us instantly into a recession
if not another depression.....

we are as dependent upon their labor as much
as we are dependent on foreign oil....

you have to physically see the many miles and
miles of orange groves,vineyards and other row crop
acreages in florida and california to realize the
enormous job it is to harvest food in the USA.

so until we robotize this nation with several million
illegal alien replacements we need them for the economy.

First you justify your argument that it's the largest threat.

You made the claim.

-spence

Global disruption of energy could happen and would be disasterous to our economy. A half mile wide comet could also strike New York causing an unprecedended economic meltdown. Illegal immigrants are now, today, draining our social economic systems, stealing jobs, overburdening our health care, educational, and penal systems, stealing more jobs, lowering wages of the working class, etc. etc. to the point of near disaster. Thats what makes illegal immigration a more real, present threat to our economy today than the myriad of things that could possibly happen.

That's not justification...it's a silly rant.

You think energy disruption is on par with interplanetary disruption? You do realize there's more to the paper than just the Lifestyle section, right? :hee:

Show me some quantification, what's the drain in real dollars...then you have something to compare.

-spence

Nice bob, but a crappy weave. Refer to the Center for Immigration studies table posted above and if thats not enough quantification for you extrapolate on it and consider those are 2002 numbers and the situation has clearly gotten worse. Now tell us how your "Huge Offset" theory nullifies those facts.

Your comparison of the possibilty of Global Energy Disruption to the current Illegal Immigration occurence is like saying the Great White shark that might come out of the depths and eat you is more of a threat than the Tiger Shark that already has you in its jaws becuase it's bigger and badder.

First your table is stoopid.

And I mean stoopid.

It's comparing illegal households which are going to be low to perhaps mid income earners, to a non weighted US average that includes the top wage earners who pay most of the taxes.

-spence

My table? You must mean the table compiled by a respected independent non-partisan organization. I knew you would hate those facts but....... who cares. You can downplay the impact illegal immigration has on our country all you want but at the end of the day fortunately, you are a member of a very small minority.

Whiff!

Read my post and actually respond...

-spence

I was going to but the old adage of "Teaching a Pig to sing" came to mind.

yes and that minority is called 'intelectual free thinkers' :hihi: I claim membership as well.

I've heard it called other names too. :humpty:

genious comes to mind.

No singing necessary, just admit you're wrong and all is right :hihi:

-spence

Okay, I'm sure you already know the words but repeat after me: :wave:
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaja.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.

:wavey:

Snipr is a very articulate and well reasoned debater. A master debater of sorts you could say :bshake:

It must be difficult when you post facts that refute your own argument :rotfl:

-spence

That was good but for the full effect it needs to be sung in a high pitched whiny voice. :grins:

I like the American version better though.

Kumbaya #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Kumbaya #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Moneys in the freezer #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
But thats okay #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Documents in the sock #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
But thats okay #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Vote for a war #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Then Run Away #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Your President was impeached #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Your President was disbarred #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
He says there was WMD #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Was he lying #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&? Kumbaya
Oh #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& Kumbaya
Someones praying #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Sue their ass #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Hate the rich #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Unless it's you #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Blood for oil #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Dont drill here #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Move to France #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
You'd like it better #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya

Oh #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& Kumbaya :thanks:

*sigh*

i don't know about you guys, but most of the illegal aliens i see around me work their gazoongas off to send money back to their families. most of these are mexicans, etc.

they take jobs nobody wants. they do unsafe and dirty work nobody does. compared to the rest of us they are willing to work for peanuts. they do it without benefits (well, except in cali). they crib in groups and eat instant noodles 24/7 to save money. their work ethic put some of us to shame.

i can't help but have a sincere admiration for these people living on hardscrabble, regardless of how they got here.

did i mention many are serving in our armed forces, fighting and dying for the rest of us? and they're not citizens.

your perspective might depend on where you live. people who live in Cali and the southern border states (Texas for example) might be up their eyeballs in illegal-related crime. here on the east coast, i don't see it that much. maybe i am out of touch.

the reality is that they are here and more than a few of us find that for the most part they are wanted/needed.

we really should have some kind of guest worker program, to legitimize their presence here (take a headcount and collect tax revenue!).

i'm not saying we have to offer citizenship or even certain benefits (is it fair for them to take benefits once they start paying taxes?), but there ought to be a way to track 'em - allow the law-abiding productive ones to come and go and keep the bad apples out.

i feel bad for immigrants in a post-9/11 world. it really sucks for them now. i have a lot of co-workers here who are here on a work-visa. if they get laid off by their employer, they have no choice but to hunt for another sponsor (not easy!) or be deported. i don't know if i could live with that kind of nerve-wracking uncertainty.

NFW!

Wow, you'll twist anything in defense of illegal immigration wont you?

Yes, I guess I did go a little overboard on your debating ability :humpty:

-spence

Illegal aliens and immigrants here on a valid work visa are two completley different issues. While I sympatihize with the plight of those workers who are in danger of losing their sponsor I feel worse for the skilled trades workers who spent the winter on unemployment while illegal immigrants performed their jobs for a fraction of the money. Framing, roofing, sheet rocking, tiling etc. etc. are not jobs Americans dont want to do.

I noticed you still haven't voted in the poll. :rotf2:

The fact that the average illegal alien household (those that aren't working under the table) paid in 2002, $4,912in taxes and cost the government $6,949 in expenses supports my argument, not yours. Where is that huge offset you were refering to? And while you are at it, what exactly is your point? Are you trying to convince somebody that we should chill out about illegal immigration, its not that bad? When was the last time someone in your industry was under-bid by unlicensed, uninsured, unqualifed criminals? How many employees did you lay-off in the past year because their work was lost to illegal immigrants? But I guess if it doesn't effect you personally it's all good, right? Why don't you try supporting those who are trying to earn a living in their own country for a decent wage, it's the decent thing to do.

Read my own posts again you shrimp-less fool!

My response was in context of your absurd statement that...

Which you have yet to back up with a single fact!

The chart you keep citing as evidence is comparing a net loss per illegal with an average based on a progressive tax system. The legal tax payers only slightly break even because the rich pay most of the taxes.

You don't even know your own GOP talking points!

Keep digging :wave:

-spence

The rich pay most of the taxes? You don't even know your own Code-Pink Talking points!

Catch up with the real world and understand this isn't about politics it's about real people, real jobs, real facts and real dollars. Downplay it all you want..........where are those facts on the huge offset that you used as an unsupported argument again? And seeing how you avoided the questions I guess we can assume you weren't under-bid by unlicensed, uninsured, unqualifed criminals, or were forced to lay-off employees in the past year because their work was lost to illegal immigrants, so no problem. I can read off the top of my head dozens of guys who have lost jobs to illegals, but I can't think of a single one who has lost anything to the disruption of global energy supplies. Ask them what's the biggest threat. Thanks for validating the singing pig theory (again).

:lurk:

The real world? Are you 'effin kidding me???

In the real world US Corporations screw over millions of legal workers in the name of shareholder value on a continual basis.

You seem to have let your emotion override your judgement and reason.

-spence