some other stats you forgot....

All time leading scorer for Georgetown U. (so what its college)
NBA 1996 Rookie of the Yr.

Also while a Rookie: Iverson led the Sixers with 23.5 points (sixth in the NBA), 7.5 assists (10th) and 2.07 steals (seventh) and 40.1 minutes per game.

In the 1998-1999 season, Iverson had his first trip to the playoffs. He started all ten playoff games and averaged 44.4 minutes per game despite being hampered by a number of nagging injuries. Iverson led the Sixers to an upset over the higher seeded Orlando Magic, before losing to a veteran laden Indiana Pacers squad. That year, he averaged 26.8 points earning his first scoring title.

The next year, Iverson averaged 28.4 points and once again led the 76ers into the playoffs. In the playoffs, Iverson averaged 26.2 points, 4.8 assists, 4.0 rebounds and 1.30 steals per game, with a high of 40 points in the first round opener at Charlotte on April 22. That season, he was the only player other than Shaquille O'Neal to get a NBA Most Valuable Player vote.

2001, Best season (arguable). All Star MVP Honors at All Star Game
That year Sixers went 56-26, he averaged career high 31.1 pts a game. NBA Final Appearance lost to juggernaut lakers. SCORED PLAYOFF HIGH 48 VERSE SHAQ w/ KOBE GUARDING HIM!!!!!

31.4 pts per game 02 season, playoff appearance

I could say more, including his tenure in the OLYMPICs, but I wont...

Just savior those daddy?

Really....I didn't know that :rolleyes:

Iverson is a HALL OF FAMER, despite how you feel about Vick. Doug Flutie is for the Canadians!!!! He is SO 2nd string. Get a grip Pa!!! He is the oldest player (drum roll) to rush for a whole 2 touchdowns in one game, so I'll give you that, but FLutie belongs exactly where he is, commentating for College Sports.

Dog fighting evolved to Cheney Derangment Syndrome, big surpise. Vick is a pos thug. Deal with it.

Here are a couple of More Allen Iverson "Stats"

1993 - Serverd jail time for Being involded in a Mob fight at a Bowling Alley and hitting a Girl with a chair. Sentenced to 4-15 years


2002 - Philadelphia 76ers star Allen Iverson surrendered to police July 16, 2002 to face criminal charges that include four felonies for allegedly threatening two people with a gun. Iverson, who led the NBA in scoring last season, would plead not guilty to criminal trespass, simple assault, weapons violations and other charges at an arraignment, his attorney told reporters. (Philadelphia Police via Reuters)

Charges from this incident -

Criminal trespass, felony, two counts

Criminal conspiracy, felony, one count

Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act, felony, one count

Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act, misdemeanor, one count

Simple assault, misdemeanor, two counts

Terroristic threats, misdemeanor, two counts

Unlawful restraint, misdemeanor, two counts

False imprisonment, misdemeanor, two counts

Possession of an instrument of crime, misdemeanor, one count


Yeah he's a REAL Peach of a guy.

Let's not forget all the times he feels he's to good to practice with the team too.......

How many turnovers does Iverson average per game? What is his shooting percentage compared to the greats in NBA history? Anyone can pick and choose stats to make their guy look like a Hall of Famer.
As far as Vick, he has never won anything and has never put up overall numbers to show that he is anything other than an average to below average NFL QB. He is a runner and not a passer, and the teams that win Superbowls have QB's who can pass. On top of all that, he has shown that he is a punk buy flipping off his own fans and he is a loser for hanging around criminals who participate in dog fighting.
You can have all of your athletes that are part of the thug culture that is so pervasive in our society. That is one of the reasons why our country is going down the toilet. Kids look up to these idiots and model their behavior after them. Give me the Tim Duncans and the Troy Browns or Ahman Greens of the world anyday. Those are guys that I would be proud to have my son look up to. They play the game the way it is supposed to be played and they act like gentlemen off the court and field. Just remember, there is nothing wrong with being a "good guy".

So I guess we have crossed the line into the world of ethics. Is Robert Downey Jr. a bad actor because of his stints in rehab, because he's pretty amazing actor. How about Tom's indiscretion's with Brazilian models and the baby-mama syndrome. How about George Bush? our president, Ted Kennedy......etc, etc. C',mon guys, I know you insist on moral absolutes, but lets leave the politics out of sports and not admonish thoughs because the media says so. Vick, is on his own, but life is not without mistakes. #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney was kicked out Yale twice. When is the media gonna get on his case about his connections to war profiteers, but no, American Staffordshire Terriers are the most dangerous dogs ever. Hooray for Doug Flutie, the Canadian national hero. How about, Iverson contributions to charity....should I mention those? NO, because were talking sports, you guys are a lot like my wife...

thugs didn't orchestrate the war in Iraq. Thugs don't import guns, drugs or make this place appeal to illegal immigrants. Blame the thugs in government for blowing a hole in America. Blame the record industry for promoting these thugs. Place blame where it belongs. I fear the corporate elite more than fear any homeless thug on the street corner.

Albert Gonzales need I say more people should be burning effigies in the street. But we have Mike Vick for that, scapegoats

Baseball needs More Cal Ripkens and less Barry Bonds
Basketball needs more Bill Russells and Less Allen Iversons
and Football Needs More Troy Browns and less Micheal Vicks

Is it to much to ask of these people if we are going to continue to pay a lot of cash to watch them play that they at least try to be good members of society and something that the youth of America can look up to......istead of a bunch of Steroid Using, Gun Toting, Tattoo Covered, Foul Mouthed Thugs who think that We owe Them.

Let's just respect athleticism, keep it at that. That's what spectating is about.

Allen Iverson, great basketball player, introduced the stutter step/crossover into the NBA.....credit when its due! Hall of Famer, see you in Springfield

Mike Vick, well he sure wont be a PETA spokesperson, but he is a GOOD quaterback, not GREAT, but GOOD and we already know about the receivers

Doug Flutie.......natick high's very own, Canadian national hero, what can I say. But I'll say one thing, the Canadian dollar is about to be worth more than the American dollar. Gotta love those thugs over at the Treasury department. Run up the bill, someone else will pay for it, like our grand kids.

American Staffordshire Terriers- Great fighting dogs, but its great owners who make great dogs.

thugs do orchestrate dog fights and get in domestic disputes, they get in brawls in bowling alleys, they get caught with suspicious water bottles, and they're just plain stupid. and so is your defense of these two morons.....

You are the classic example of the guy who is losing an argument, and changes the topic completely. This started about Vick and then you brought Iverson into the discussion. Now that it has been shown that both of those guys are pieces of garbage, you move on to something else. You can get in your electric car and go preach to your liberal wingnuts in Cambridge about your views on the war and drugs in America and everything else that is wrong with our country. Those are topics for another thread and do not belong in this one.
Vick is an example of a guy who thinks he is above the law and can do whatever he wants because of who he is. Now, he'll never be able to become a good QB because he's a jerk. He has already been told not to report to minicamp this week. That's not a good sign for his future in the NFL.

Losing an argument. I compared Vick's style of play to Iverson's only in the sense of that they are both non-traditional styles of play for the particular positions held. With regards to the dogfighting, Vick is screwed, there is no doubt about that....no need to argue about that. Vick and Iverson are both from the street, no need to argue about that. Thugs fighting in bolling alleys over a Red Sox game, or because they are drunk is o k with me. #^&#^&#^&#^& Cheney on the other hand is not, but thats for another thread. From the beginning, I stated that if Vick had the right set up (which may be his inherent flaw because he doesnt seem to be coachable) he could be the most dangerous player in the game, regardless of whether or not he is a dog owner. Lest we forget, he was 7th in winning percentage of all quaterbacks starting last season. Finneran, his go to guy, was injured. Peerliss Price is just plain overrated, ,much like many of you claim Vick is. Alge Crumpler had a good year, but he's nowhere near as good as other TE and he's about as slow rush hour on the southeast expressway. Give him Antonio Gates, and then.....or put him with a solid squad, not the FALCONS, eventhough been to the NFC Championship on Vick's watch. I think he should play for the Jaguars personally. I am the only person presenting sports related statistics, everything else are just value judgements, personal beefs and ramblings about America's thug culture. This country was built on thuggery. I leave the morals for the church, and the sports for the fans...

Will the real Sports Fan's please stand up. Everything else is just gossip.

...and remember, all you hotsauce right wingers, we used to be innocent until proven guilty. Albert Gonzales is over the Justice Dept. The same cronies investigating Vick, no one has yet to question their credibility. The Surry County DA wanted to make sure the case was watertight, but the FEDS went in for the kill.

I repeat 7th in winning percentage of starting quaterbacks last season, before the injuries....that may not make you GREAT, but that damn sure is GOOD......

I feel like you guys are ignoring the facts...and I can't imagine that all you guys volunteer at the Humane Society. Say what you want about Vick's personal life, I'll put you on the phone with my wife and she'll give you an earful about A.I., A-Rod, Vick, etc...., just acknowledge that at the very least, VERY LEAST he is a GOOD quaterback (some of you have already done so, but those others, you know you are). So all personal inklings aside, whose losing?

...And one more thing, if Vick is overrated, then A-Rod must just plain be a fraud.

that's right, he has 7 years in the league, but he is only 27. He has (a conservative estimate) of at least 3 to 4 seasons left before he starts getting worn. Remember, his arm is not as bad as people make it out to be. Kurt Warner, the greatest accuracy passer of all time, his career completion percentage was arount 65% and he played till he was 35. And with regards to winning, Vick was 7th of the starting quaterbacks at the start of last season. Again that number is not great, but definitely GOOD. Last season was by far his worst season. That same tired, worn out accuracy excuse they apply to all quaterbacks that run. McNabb, Vince Young, Charlie Frye....etc, etc, etc. I feel like I am talking in circles. For you, we can just talk sports, not politics. But I reaffirm my position that dog fighting is disgusting, and for all practical purposes Vick is done because of said allegations.

I do, however, appreciate the pseudo-intellectual reference. For that, I am eternally grateful.

Yeah, That whole Accuracy thing in a Quarterback is Over-rated.....who cares if they can't hit the target. :rolleyes:

Sadest part of Vick ,et al ,is the affect they have as heros to our kids.
Very few if any to look upto.

It seems the only thing important in todays sports is excellence in stats,
and nothing to do with character or setting a good example.
:(

To EarnedStripes44:
Don't tell me that you think Vick should go on playing FB?
That his bad idea's that led to crimes should not be looked at by "Real Sports fans". Just let the guy pay the fines, even go to jail, but when he comes out he can have his job as 7th best QB to play the game back?
Why do you stick up for Pro Sports Loosers?
Why do you care about what records they broke in sports when they are the scum of even being a human being?
To give you an example of the type of Real Sports Fan I am...I wouldn't walk across the street to meet OJ Simpson, now this guy was found "innocent". Do I want to see him do well? No. Do I want his autograph? No, I wouldn't even take a signed jersy.
Vick can meet OJ in the All Pro Hall of Shame.
Another thing, Start another thread on Politics. We will agree more over there...not that it matters here.

Character and setting a good example to our kids means something to me. Perhaps that is what I was trying to say to EarnedStripes44.

So, he is 7th in winning percentage. He must be a great QB, then. By that logic, Philip Rivers and Rex Grossman were the best QB's in the league last year. Peyton Manning is definitely not as good as Grossman, huh? All right, now I have to actually look up some stats to show how bad Vick really is as a QB. I am not going to list the numbers, but they are all available on any NFL related website, so you cannot say it's a bunch of BS. The following all have better career QB stats (completion percentage and passer rating) than your homeboy Vick.
T. Brady, D. Brees, M. Brunnell, M. Bulger, J. Delhomme, B. Farvre, J. Garcia, T. Green, M. Hasselbeck, B. Johnson, B. Leftwich, P. Manning, D. McNabb, S. McNair, C. Palmer, C. Pennington, T. Rattay, P. Rivers, B. Rothlisberger, K. Warner, and last but not least..........the immortal Seneca Wallace. As you can see, some of these guys are not even starters anymore. I also left off guys like Romo who have better #'s, but have not played a full season yet. Now, I challenge you to come up with some of your handpicked stats to refute these numbers. Just because you have an unnatural love for an athlete, doesn't make him a great player. You can say that I am not a knowledgeable sports fan like you, but I am certain that I prove that Vick is a crappy QB. Case closed.

Remember, were talking about current starters at the opening of last season. The Falcons were terrible last season. Brett Favre is damn near twice Vicks age, Steve McNair is on his way out. Half the guys you named have a career in some cases a decade longer than Vicks. None of the players can rush for yds like Vick, no one except Steve Young. You named veterans, VETERANS, Vicks career will be cut in half and at no point did I say he was a veteran, dangerous yes, but not a veteran. Drew Brees is one of the best QB's in the league (I think Vick was top 10 starting quaterbacks last season given what he had to work with). Mike Vick had a higher passer rating last season than Ben Rothlisburger, Brad Johnson and even Rex Grossman. Vick was ranked 20th in QB rating. That's just passing. If rushing was included, it would be a significant boost, but I respect the idea that quaterback should throw.

Vick is a GOOD player.
Rolemodel, nope
Should he play professional football, that's not up to me? If the allegations prove true, then he should be out of there, he should'nt play under indictment. But if he is exonerated, shame on everyone....especially the media.

I could go on and on about his rushing, but you guys don't need to be reminded of that.

And, I'm sorry, I did'nt know it was more important that players be patron saints rather than athletes.

Vick is also the only quaterback to throw for 250 yds in conjunction with 100 yds rushing

This post is for those of you, who think upstanding citizenship are more important than capability....
In June 2006, Vick, along with his brother Marcus Vick and mother Brenda Vick Boddie, established The Vick Foundation, a nonprofit organization that supports at-risk youth and the after school programs that serve them in the Metro Atlanta and Hampton Roads areas. The announcement of the organization came just before the start of the foundation’s first fundraiser, the Michael Vick Golf Classic. The inaugural event was held at the prestigious Kingsmill Golf Course in James City County near Williamsburg, Virginia in partnership with The Virginia Tech Alumni Association Tidewater Chapter, and netted more than $80,000 for charity

After the Virginia Tech massacre in April 2007, Vick teamed up with the United Way to donate $10,000 to assist families affected by the tragedy.[55] Vick explained, "When tragic things like this happen, families have enough to deal with, and if I can help in some small way, that's the least I can do." The Vick Foundation is collecting donations from local communities in both Atlanta and Virginia that will be placed in the United In Caring Fund for Victims of the Virginia Tech Tragedy and the special fund at the United Way of Montgomery, Radford and Floyd counties, which serves the Virginia Tech area. Vick's foundation said the money will be used to provide help with funeral expenses, transportation for family members and other support services.

On June 22, 2007, a charity golf tournament featuring Vick, intended in part to raise scholarships in memory of Virginia Tech's shooting victims, was rescheduled for September.[58] The tournament at Kingsmill Resort & Spa had been set to begin on June 29, and a reason for the change was not announced. The tournament is the latest in a series of Virginia appearances either canceled or delayed since Vick's name surfaced in a dog fighting investigation

What a shame, now that he fights dogs, they won't even let him give back to the community...

Vick is a spokesperson for the Boys & Girls Club of Metro Atlanta and the Empty Stocking Fund and gives credit to the Boys & Girls Club in his hometown for helping him grow as a youth and provides a monetary donation through a player performance pledge to the local chapter for every touchdown pass. Vick also invited more than 100 kids from the Boys & Girls club locally to the team’s facility after a Saturday practice for a punt, pass and kick competition, as well as a flag football game. He purchased tickets for the kids to attend a Falcons game the next day.

As a part of ESPN.com's "Jocks to GI's", he had a GI e-mail pen pal overseas during the war with Iraq that he communicated with in the spring of 2003. He and USAF Staff Sgt. Angela Geist from Lawrenceville, Georgia, shared emails and life experiences.
Named to Sports Illustrated's "101 Most Influential Minorities In Sports" in May of 2003 at #77 and was chosen to be the EA Sports cover athlete and spokesman for (John) Madden NFL 2004.

Madden doesnt think he so bad

You guys better come stronger...

Now you're changing things again. You use stats from Vick's career when it makes him look good, but you use stats from last year when I bring up career stats of other notable players. You kept bringing up winning percentage, but when I brought up Rex Grossmans winning percentage being better than Vick's, You say that Vick had a better passer rating. Get your argument straight. You are making more of a fool of yourself with each post. Vick's passer rating has been poor for his entire career. QB's are judged on passer rating because they are supposed to pass. Running backs are supposed to run the ball. Being a mobile QB is not the same as being a running QB. Vick runs because he is not a good QB. He is not good at reading and breaking down defenses, and he is lousy at checking down to 2nd and 3rd options. He does not stay in the pocket and doesn't give his O-line a chance to block for him because he breaks off plays at the first sign of a pass rush. Bottom line is that if you are judging him as an NFL quarterback, he is closer to the bottom than the top of the rankings. I'm sure you are very intelligent, but you are not covering yourself in glory trying to make an argument that Vick is even a "good" quarterback. But, I know you won't let facts get in the way of your argument

He doesnt not have 2nd and 3rd options. Rex Grossman has killer receivers, there is no doubt about that. Last season was Vick's worse season without a doubt. We can talk about the other seasons if you prefer? Yes, your right Vick runs to overcompensate for his lack of accuracy, but he is more accurate than nearly a third of all QB's in the league. He also runs because he is exceptionally good at it.

Now with regards to facts, they speak for themselves. I've posted them throughout the thread. For you to say Vick is a marginal QB, including the fact that he runs like an ostrich, just holds no water whatsoever. I've said this four or five times and no one has countered it. Until the recent troubles, Vick has only be in the league all of 6 years. He is only 27. Incredible potential flushed down the drain. I will concede that Michael Vick is a GOOD quaterback, he is amazingly athletic. His arm is a solid C, but overall,he is GOOD, he is a solid B. I would not just write off a QB who can throw 90 yards and scramble for that same amount. Read the facts, man. There are plenty of players who started out rough, but ended up making history. Be objective.

I never said Vick was overrated and I never said he was underrated, I believe you did....I said he was dangerous, both on the field and to the pit bulls.

I also have some mild criticisms of how QB rating is calibrated

It does'nt take into account how sacks.
Rushing yards have no bearing whatsover on the numbers.
should be measured along the lines of yards per play not yards per attempt.

and i'm going to remind you that Vick holds the NCAA freshmen record for passing efficiency. So the potential for growth is clearly there.

This is what someone else said about QB rating....but I think it applies here in an effort to further thwart the stoning of Vick's efforts as an athlete (not dog owner) by the inflamed passions of the mob.

...is that the formula overemphasizes Completion Percentage. While Completion % in and of itself makes up 25% of the rating's calculation, the use of Yards per Attempt rather than Yards per Completion adds to the weight of Completion %, since incomplete passes are penalized under yds/attempt. Thus, many critics feel that the Passer Rating formula automatically is skewed in favor of quarterbacks who play in a West Coast scheme that favors many high-percentage (but low-yardage) pass plays.
- Vick cannot play the West Coast scheme, its not his style.

The simplest complaint may be that the weighting of each category is, on the whole, arbitrary. There is no evidence to suggest that Completion %, Yards/Attempt, Touchdown %, and Interception % are of equal value (25% each) in terms of an offense's efficiency (or if those stats, in that combination, have any correlation to scoring, or winning, at all). The system also does not account for changing offensive conditions in the NFL over time; for example, when the formula was devised, a score of 66.6 was supposed to represent an average quarterback. And in 1970 , the average passer scored a 65.6, a figure almost perfectly in line with the rating-creators' vision. But in 1980 , the average was 73.7; in 1992, the average quarterback had a rating of 75.3; and in 2004, a record-setting year for passers, the league's mean passer rating was 82.8. The great Johnny Unitas finished his hall of fame career with only a 78.2 rating. At least part of the reason for the increase in passer ratings is that the NFL has consistently made rule changes favoring the offense. Thus, scores must be interpreted with care when doing cross-era analysis.