I'm pretty sure that John allows links--unless they're to a porno site ;).

On SOL there has been posts by regular canal jiggers having busted handles among other issues. Someone mentioned that the metal might be inferior but do not know if that is just surmised.

I'm switching to conventional

I've been chewing on this for a couple of days and I guess it comes down to intent. I think by intention it was never 'announced' that this was happening. I don't give a monkeys red rump about the reels origin. I got a 200 a couple of months ago and fished it hard enough to know that it works as advertised. What bugs me is that the intention was there to deceive. It's that kind of action that makes you 'feel' that something isn't what it is proported to be.

Was not a knock off was another reel made in china with VS in the description.

It's old news, from early this year or last. That's not to say there isn't a reel or two out there that could still have that flaw. A batch of the bolts that hold the handle together had been machined too agressively and were snapping. Usually it revealed itself pretty quickly and it wasn't just happening in severe Canal service, I saw a 150 or two that it happened too as well.

If you actually see one it's immediately obvious that it was WAY too thin.

Once again Mike_P, this is just what it is, not an apology, nor is it a subjective viewpoint. No need for some snide comment.

I agree.

Heres a link ---Are these real Van Staals??? or Fakes??? Check the price on these, and where they are located


http://www.diytrade.com/directory/gl...ning_Reel.html

I got to meet a lot of wonderful people thru the net over the years,particularly on this website.
Not one has left a bigger impression on me that PeteG.
Why?
How many other tackle store "pros" call you and try to find out if the hype that goes on the net is real or its subsidized by the manufacturer before they stock their product?Most stores are happy enough to cash in on the hot item, regardless of the actual product qualities.
Pete don't shill or cover for no one.He just tell you like it is,objective to a fault
Something we could all use more in this industry............

Merry Christmas

Lots of foolish, uninformed comments here. We like what we like,regardless of where it is made. Stella, Saltiga, Abu. Where are they made? Are they cast or machined? What do you think costs more Einstein?Seems some folks have an axe to grind for whatever reason.A$700 reel better be good but there is NOTHING that does not break down with salt,sand or sun.I have seen the accurate spinners.... I have seen the saltiga loyalists upset too.Alberto broke a reel....wow.How could that happen?Swim with a reel,do nothing to maintain it,we'll see who can fish longest. Sure I wish it was still made in the USA I'm proud of my country. Is there something wrong with this? I also would like to see WET (white entetainment television).This does not mean I am a racist,just proud of my race.Lots of stuff slipping away we can't seem to control,add this to the list. Hold your breath because I hear we will be getting some interesting news regarding the ZeeBaas. You heard it here first.
MERRY CHRISTMAS

I'm done with this thread, Pete, and in fact I'm done with the very subject. I expressed an opinion. Which I'm not the only one here who shares. So we each have people who privately support our opinions. I've never met you, and I've never been in your shop. I only know you from these forums, and in my opinion--and even a moderator of these forums is entitled to have an opinion--you have in the past and even now shown a bias in favor of VS. It's just an opinion I have, nothing more. I don't consider it to be anything more than a bias. It isn't a reflection on your character or an accusation of an ulterior motive---any human being is entitled to a bias in favor of a product. I would have replied to you privately, but since you chose to continue this in public, I'll respond publicly.

And just for the record--I own two older Van Staal reels which have never given me a lick of trouble, and I don't have any deal with any reel company. Any product I happen to mention doesn't have me on its payroll, or doesn't sell me a product at a substantial discount over what the public pays. I don't have any ulterior motives in expressing my opinions.

Anyway, like I said, I'm done with the subject on this website.

Merry Christmas--sincerely.

Come on now Mike. You’re acting as though you’re revealing something or making a formal accusation. If you’re only of the opinion I support Van Staal you’re not paying attention. As Sea Dangles would say, “Is a 5 pound robin fat?” ;) And of course you are entitled to your opinion.

VS has been good for the Saltwater Edge, and I don’t really mean in respect to reel sales. People who buy them usually like them and continue to shop at the SWE. In a world where small tackle and fly shops are disappearing there’s nothing more important to me that people come back. So that relationship is pretty simple. If I felt VS was nothing but a disappointment they’d be out. And since some people don’t like them, or are fishing in ways that other reels are better suited for, or maybe they just don’t want to buy a Van Staal made in China we carry Accurate, Stellas, Saltigas, and all manner of reels at all price ranges. We’ll probably carry ZeeBaas soon too once this whole made overseas question is put to bed one way or the other.

Now to what this is really about.

It’s the Internet so everyone reads things differently. I’m sure some read it and didn’t think a thing of it. Maybe it was the smiley shaking his head, or maybe it was the way you worded it. What I took notice of was the tone. To quote Clem from Joe Dirt: “You're talking to me all wrong... It's the wrong tone.” Now initially I dismissed it assuming I was reading it wrong or overreacting, but when people call, email, and walk into the shop and ask wtf that was all about it’s pretty clear I wasn’t wrong in being not too pleased with the way you decided to word it.

Regardless, you’ve said your piece and I’ve said mine.

Now let’s get back to the wild speculation. Someone show me proof VS quality will slip. And especially since the SWE will probably soon pick up Zee Baas, prove that it has foreign parts in it. I've heard the ZeeBaas rumors for a while now but no proof at all. While it would be nice to have an entirely US built spinning reel option, the soap opera that would unfold if it isn't would possibly be the highlight of the winter...

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all.

There's no way you can see proof until it happens. To manufacture a quality reel in China will cost way more than 10 bucks Likwid, but the real question is if they continue to invest what it will take and protect their IP in the process.

Regarding the ZeeBass. There's nothing that says a reel should be 100% made in the USA to be good. It's all down to the sourcing and quality they are paying for.

The reference to leather bags is a great one. Due to environmental restrictions there's very little quality leather still tanned in the USA. Buy a quality pair of USA shoes like Allen Edmonds or Alden and they are made from imported components. Just get used to it as it may not be a bad thing.

But also, nearly 100% of the top end leather bags are also faked by the Chinese. They simply don't give a whip and if someone can make money from a fake VS they will.

-spence

Rules on links are basically no Spam, no .Self Promotion, no prono . The system automatically filters out the first X amount of posts that have links so people can't take advantage of the site.

Interesting first link :doh: - I would be bleeped if I were VS

%$%$%$%$E!The 70s,Penn Intl knockoff?Indonesia!I'm done buying online.If I ever got an International reel in the mail,that said Made in Indonesia,I would flip the eff out.

Great point. It was inevitable. I guess it's safe to say Van Staal Reel line will all be down hill from here. Buy your parts now and stock up!
Who will be next?

I do not care where they are made as long as the quality stays the same but what gets me is that the profit margin for VS increases by X% without a decrease in price.

If you had a mechanic who charged a premium because he had enough experience to fix every problem he ran into...the same mechanic decides to retire and hands the business over to his son who was only getting coffee for him during the day...would you still pay that same premium?? I know I would be going to a different mechanic if the high rates remained.

I am not saying that the components will change but the experience of the worker assembling the reel will decrease which could lead to field failures. In the time it takes the workers to get up to speed folks will switch over to a ZB.

In my industry we are going through the same problem of QA engineers in India (sent all QA testing for a specific product to India) not finding basic bugs even though the tests are the same. IMO there will be a blip in reliability of the reels with the reels being assembled in China.

If you need your VS service it will still be done in Tulsa, OK. Assembling the VS is a cake walk. It is a dumb fishing reel not a part for the aerospace industry. This isn't rocket science .... LOL.

Regardless of where it is made and as long as they use the correct material to make the parts it should be easy. Setting up the tooling is critical. Stealing the design is a joke - any one with a pair of calipers can copy the thing IMHO. There isn't anything special about it.

So many goods are made abroad now. :( Look at all the nice fishing rods coming out of China now for CHEAP $. Top quality Fuji parts: hardloy guides, reel seat, neoprene shrink wrap and so forth for under $100. Tsunami and other brands have adjust THEIR prices, but why NOT some of these other companies?! You can make the $ thru volume OR make it as lower cost and pocket the $. WC Bradley is pocketing the $$ they save for the Van Staal reels made in China. :( Isn't this the American way?! Sorry to be sarcastic. I'm not buying into the newer style VS reels period. If I decide to keep them, I'll stick with the US made ones.

I don't doubt that VS reels made abroad will be the same or better quality of the US made ones. I've seen plenty of US made black VS with mis-matched anodizing out there where it was more of a deep purple than it was black.

Zeebaas aren't flawless. First batch had issues of the spool gasket bottoming out on the rotor underneath. They were made aware of it and fixed it, BUT the stack up tolerances bit them on that one. ;) They were lacking on QC there for sure. You would think that those first hundred would have been "perfect" before they released them out to the dealers! ZB knew what they were up against with anal anglers...... LOL. There must be other glitches with it I am sure. JohhR - your ZB perfect or ya got some issues with yours?! I bet those who did get one are embarassed to admit they are some problems. I know the guy who designed the reel is always interested in getting feedback on the ZB. Retail prices on a longer power handle with a different knob is PAINFUL! OUCH ..... some good $ for one.

Look at the country of origin on consumer goods - 90% of the stuff out there is from Asia. Most of it is fine. They just need to understand we don't USE lead paint any more! It would be extremely hard to buy ALL US made products for everything now a days. :(

Man, it IS going to be a longer winter. :D

All the QA folks do in my office is run a script that was created years ago but software bugs are not caught with the folks in India because they are not as familiar with the product.

I understand that assembling a reel is not rocket science but it would super suck if the reel fails because of a newbie forgot to add the sphincter pin caused by a lack of assembly experience.

The folks in Tulsa have made plenty of mistakes with the reels as well as the other service centers for VS in the past! :( Their track record for repairs has been much better and continues to improve. The guy who retired, Dan, knew the product and stayed on to help train them correctly.

For the cost of the Van Staal reels each one should be check more than once in the assembly process. If it isn't then they really need a better QC department. I've seen plenty of VS from few yrs back that were made out of CT that had plenty of issues so what was their excuse then?! LOL. Self-tightening drag nuts were always fun to see! Spool just locked up once a fish started to take out line. :( Two brand new VS200 B were that way: both had to get sent back to the factory. You must have opened up your VS reel before - there aren't a lot of parts in there. ;)

I am more concerned my brakes on my car can fail and create a bigger problem for me than a fishing reel, lurch. :) I always have a spare or two with me. If I know I am going to be hoofing it in a ways, I just take the spare reel in my bag.

When we have software issues at work we are told to call our service people over in India for support. Now a days when I get tech support I always ask them WHERE they are physically located just for my own curiosity. ;)

Since service is being discussed I believe there's a pilot service center being set up for Van Staal. It'll be at River's End, I believe. Cheaper shipping back and forth or local for some. Not sure it's finalized but as far as I know it's supposed to happen.

Assuming there's no nightmares associated with the test run, it's likely you'll see more service centers at shops that are interested.

MD is this you??? Some language for adults so kids beware.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N8cyCcZ-drM

hope thats true pete,,, if or when they start to be manufactured in china, who will say no to purchacing a VS,,, i am giong to buy three more, then the colection will be complete

That sucks, plain and simple.
At least my US made one will be all the more valuable if/when I sell it.

Lots being said and I did leave room for doubt for my post only being hearsay but with all the commotion I figured I`d try again. I don`t own a VS.

The overall quality of the made in Asia Vs` will boil down to the components. If they try to use inferior metals here and there it will show if it has`nt already and that is that.

Seems like a decent reel from what I`ve heard.

Happy Holidays!
Mike

A NEW COLLECTOR'S DREAM! US made VS reels. Oh boy this is going to be good.

I always kick myself in the ass for not seeing posibilities coming.

Dang I could have bought a couple and made triple my money back after a couple years.

I gotta pay more attention to who is setting up who for a windfall investment.

VanStal, China, cheaply made parts hmmm......anybets on how long they have to go before going all the way to the "remember them" file?:soon:

Then again I still get the laugh of the year out of this! It is too funny, just too funny.:uhuh::rotf2::jump1:

LMFAO, Lurch. That was a good one! :D Thanks for the chuckle dude.....lol.

Oh, I'm getting some great laughs from this thread. :)

Other service centers for VS? At least that one would be on the east coast - a little closer than Tulsa! :) Doesn't mean the turn around could be any better depending on the time of the yr. ;)

I'm in awe that VS doesn't sell a self-service kit any more. They USE to sell one along with the hex service wrenches for the hex side plates. No one bothered to put together a self-service O-ring kit. There are some little tricks with the o-rings, but again it isn't rocket science. They probably don't want to deal with getting sued over it. <g>

look at how guitars evolved. Now you have fenders made in Japan, Mexico and pay a premium for ones made in the US. How long before VS outsources their customer service too? You'll be explaining to some guy in India on why your drag is not working.
I love my VS, but this really, really lame.

Actually my Mexican made Telecaster plays better than the American made one. Just had to round off the fret edges and bingo she really burns.

thats funny I played a mex tele once and it blew away my 52 reissue. About 1/3 the price too!

Chinese Quality
 

I work in the water treatment industry (water treating chemicals and services for power plants, central heating plants, chilled water plants, wastewater treatment plants, etc.) where product quality must always be 100%, similar to pharmaceuticals. We cannot afford to ship off spec chemical treatments.

My company does not purchase Chinese-origin raw materials because we cannot be sure the quality will be consistent. (Our Chief Chemist of 38 years is Chinese and says "forget it" when we discuss purchasing raw materials from Communist China.) The price of Chinese chemicals is sometimes one half that of our domestic suppliers and the quality is very good....that is, until the 12th order. YIKES!!! That's when you'll experience the real China.

I'm sure good quality Van Staal reels can be manufactured in Communist China but you can count on also getting some real lemons, too. I can't afford to drive 100 miles (one way) to outer Cape Cod to fish the beaches at night and discover that my Chinese made spinning reel does not work.

I own Model 100, 150, and 200 Van Staals with low serial numbers, bought years ago. They have been great (not fished hard because I fish (troll) from a boat all summer long) but I wouldn't buy a VS reel if it was made in China. I cannot afford to take that risk. I'm a fisherman , not a gambler.

If I recall, Reel Ventures had planned to do this also. Hope it works out this go round.

Like Nebe said:
"Why are all of you so surprised?
van stall is now owned by friggen ZEBCO... Of course this was going to happen."
And Bart:
"what a bunch of bullshat. how is the price not going to drop? they obviously moved the operations over there so that the cost of manufacturing would be less.
F VS. i'll be fishing my 704s until they explode.....which isn't going to happen anytime soon..."

I agree with these guys, another once good product is going by the wayside. I remember when they first came out 20(?)yrs ago-serious reels. I knew Zebco was the end.
I bought 6 parts reels for my U.S. Penns so I've got enough parts till I can buy a lathe and milling machine-......and I'll make my own damn reel.

__________________

so what does all this mean?

should i buy my silver 250 ive always wanted this spring? or should i buy the new zeebaas?

Van Staal "Made In China", what did any of you expect to happen?

Personally, I would prefer "Made In The USA", but that's life.

It is a little late to sound the warning bell or to complain. As insideous as the loss of American manufacturing may sound, realize that we did it to ourselves. We demanded the higher wages and benefits, without realizing how good we had it here in the USA compared to the majority of the rest of the world.

We all want better gear so we can fish more in our "free time".

The Chinese don't need to worry about "free time" like we do, the vast majority of them don't have any. Even if they did, they don't have much freedom of choice as to how they might spend it. For the most part they are just happy to have a roof over their heads and something to eat. Like the Boss said, "hunger is a powerful tool". The demand for cheap labor is the #1 reason we can't even bring ourselves to secure the borders, even if that means we give the bad guys easy access to our wide open back door.

All in all, it is simply a question of affordability.

We all vote with our dollars every time we shop. How we spend them determines how the "market" responds. Don't complain about Walmart, etc., they don't build those super stores stuffed with all that cheap crap and manage to keep all the lights on without an abundance of shoppers voting with their dollars.

Listen to what is being said here by many posters: "I hope they lower the VS price". Who doesn't? The "dream" is that with lower price, we can buy more, maybe get that reel we've been itching for but couldn't swing the extra cash to pick up. Will they lower the price? I doubt it. VS reels already carry a sticker price twice what they did a couple of years ago.

What made America great? Our ability to out-manufacture our rivals. This has won all the previous wars, on the world economic front as well as the battlefield. Sad to say, we are losing this war.

How many of you have a workshop? Ever turn a lure? Look in your toolbox my friend. Got any cordless tools? Great, aren't they, but they weren't made in the USA. I doubt very many of you own so much as a hammer "made in the USA" anymore, unless you have an antique. All made in China now. And what about the machine and/or power tools? Not many Bridgeports or Hardinge machines in your basement shop are there? Its all JET, and Grizzly, heck even the Delta stuff has been made in China for a decade.

Am I any better? Nope. I'm going to buy another Van Staal soon, and will keep doing the same until someone can point me in the direction of a "better" alternative, and if it turns out to be cheaper, so much the better. But would I give "made in the USA" any preference? You betcha! That difference was why I bought the VS instead of a Stella or a Saltiga in the first place. Sadly, we just don't have any choice any more.

I emailed them asking if the reel was manufactured in the USA or not and if not, what serial number represents the switch.

For whatever it is worth, here is their response;

All reels are being manufactured in the US today. However, we utilize many of the manufacturing facilities around the world to improve product quality and our technological advantage.

I can not give you serial numbers because the change has not been made.

you guys missed it
 

they moved to china so the price don't go up...they had to...there only saveing us cash really...I'm a believer, amen brother:rotf3:figgers the year I finally decide to get one, they move and now the old used one will go up in price...murphy's law:hee:

Why? If VS is getting better margins, then that means the reel will be around for that much longer. If quality (for a VS) remains consistent, then why should we care?

17,000 VS reels in circulation IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong).

WTF cares - parts made overseas ain't gonna make a dent in our balance of trade or employment situation. Drop in the bucket.

People ain't gonna stop buying or using VS reels just because they are made in China. This prejudice is irrational.

Togue - good post - pretty much sums it up other than our failing of parenting and education in addition to the lack of manufacturing capability... The Van Staal, at the forefront of American stability and National Pride - Who Knew?

Weewee, the prejudice is not irrational. Our country's lack of desire to deal with, compete, and force a level playing field is irrational.

uh, we can't force a third-world country with a much lower cost of living (versus the US) to be a "level playing field."

the only thing that China has "fixed" is its currency. Even if the currency is allowed to double vs. the U.S. dollar, we'd still have a huge trade deficit with China.

China is coming along in many respects ... it's the old Red Guard that's holding it back with silly insular regulation. When they die off, changes will accelerate.

China is not going to be like this forever. At some point, the growing Chinese middle class, who have a savings rate of 35% (vs. negative for us) are going to be spending money on American things. Maybe Van Staal reels.