Yeah really, and screw the livelyhood of over 12,000 and $300mil a year.

BTW - interesting on the environemnt side where most of you are for killing the seals, the plovers and the dogfish

Jim my biggest issue right now is this- the GOP has this trait that kind of bugs me.. they reach out at election time to the 'small town' voter.. they will say 'were lookin out for you.. the little guy'. 'We're going to do what ever we can to help YOU succeed by ecouraging this, that, and whatever'.. When in fract the GOP at least in the past 8 years has proven that it really favors big business. Lets say the 'small town' that they say they care so much about has an oil refinery or some sort of industry that the town depends on.. when the crap hits the fan, who do you think the GOP is looking out for?? I dont judge the economy's well being by looking at the DOW.. I look at the strength of the middle class.. Who do you think is going to do their best with the middle class as their focus? Palin is a smoke screen.. However I will admit I am biased because I have seen Bush lie, cheat, and basicly screw the american people in the name of corperate profits.. McCain is not bush and is more moderate.. so I will say that I dont think that things could possibly be worse if he is elected..

Jim,
Not going to tear you apart. I just wanted clarification. It seems, at least intuitively to me, that she would turn off moderates.
You have strong convictions. So do I. I respect that, and try to do my best to post here and be non-combative. To me, her right-wing social and environmental issues trump all of the qualities you mention, and she is a lot of those things. If Hillary had half her balls and charisma, it would have been no contest this year.

I just think, regardless of her abilities as a leader, her poise, her representation of America, her issues to me, make her very unpalatable, even as a VP.

I'm not for killing seals and dogfish and others without merit, reason or rage. I am for sound environmentalism, and if something is way out of wack, probably due to us, we should work to reduce or remove out negative influence.

It only matters when it affects them.

bry - dont confuse moderate with independant
I think all child rapists should be disemboweled in a public forum, no kidding. I think we should be more isolationist, screw the UN, Im not moderate.

Neb on the small town issue. Want to see a crap hole? Visit Derbt CT. I grew up there. At one time, there was a steel industry, machinery, some pretty big employers. In the past 20-30 yrs, it dried up. the town is like a graveyard of empty buildings and post 1950 tentaments and cape cods. Its the most depressign thing for me to drive through there. I see small towns and big business linked. If you drive up taxes and penalties, it will drive business out. Big business drives jobs.

Ok, enough flip flopping, Im outta hear, no hard feelings, just not getting the kind of intellectual stimulation I need from the I hate bush crowd, you got to do better, bush is soon to be gone.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jon-so..._b_123643.html

She supports our troops!

By violating opsec.
Awesome.

Nebe, it's not only The GOP that reaches out at election time - it's all parties. Simple explanation is that everyone is trying to get votes so they can get elected and then forget about everything the promised or said they were going to do.

Both major parties are much more similar than you think. It's like professional wrestling where there are "bad guys" and "good guys". Politicians do what they can so that they can get elected. They fight with and complain about the other guy, then behind the scenes they play golf or go sailing. As someone who has worked in politics at the state level, I've seen this happen often.

I do believe that there are a lot of politicians who get into it for the right reasons, and I have met and worked with some of them. But, there are a lot of politicians (both parties) who get into it because they don't have the desire or the capabilities to hold down a "real" job.

In about 10 months, lets look at the promises made during the campaign by whoever gets elected and see what has actually come to fruition. It won't make a difference if it's Obama or McCain.

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;617345]bry - dont confuse moderate with independant


Fair enough, I don't confuse, but probably shouldn't lump. Moderate repubs usually fall closer to the middle than they do to the far right, in my experience..

Killing dogfish.... I know of no better way to inexpensively feed the in-laws than to provide them copious amounts of battered dogfish nuggets and lemon slices.

http://tbn4-beta.google.com/images?q...rahypnotic.jpg

unity

hope

hopefulness for unity

the unity of hopefulness

listen to my voice....

McCain / Palin has my vote, I'm done with political coverage, I've made up my mind.

However, do you really think being a moderate liar, cheater and screwer is really going to help us non-big business folks?

The way most are looking at it is it can't be any worse?

I think it is kind of early to weigh in on her abilities after hearing her give one speech the majority of which she did not write. I am going to keep an open mind about her until the debates and we will see how good she does in a less scripted setting. Although I am for Obama, previously I would not have shed too many tears if McCain was elected. I am kind of concerned that McCain, who says he is a man of principle, backs down from his choices for running mate because of pressure from the far right and then appoints someone that he has only spoke to for an hour.
Maybe in his mind he does not contemplate his own passing but to make a snap decision about the possible future of the country has me quite concerned.

I listened to her speech but couldn't keep from wondering what it would be like to get head from a vice-presidential candidate........?

Is that fall under the impure thoughts category?

Hmmm, a vp hummer, what would that be like?

Does that make me a bad person?

Other than that all I got from it was "Jesus is lord, from my cold dead fingers, I'm a mom, I was mayor of a hick town and governor of a state (that doesn't have as many year round residents as New York City )and the feeling that her favorite book is the latest Smith & Wesson catalog.

She is cute but she doesn't seem all that genuine to me, she was a reporter ( sports I am told) but I never trusted reporters news, sports or otherwise.

Leave it to those wacky republicans to mix things up in a campaign. The most fun will be Biden vs. Palin debates ( is there more than one televised vp candidate debate?)

I am so glad I am an un-enrolled voter this year.:uhuh:

depends on who he decides whome to lie cheat and screw :sspam:

Nebe and Likwid were wondering the same thing when they watched Biden's address. :musc:

That's pretty friggin cheap, Spence. Not everyone googles info and spends time researching every aspect of the debate so they can look smarter then everyone else. Most of us are just speaking from the heart and learn from each other as we go. I know what "Present" means and it means he doesn't have the balls to vote an actual yes on the subject at hand because he may some day have to explain that vote.

-steve

:err::err:
Isn't Nebe your vice President? :err::err:

:laugha::humpty::wave::eek5:

Come on Steve, you know the country will be a lot better off with an experienced President rather than one with charisma and no real way to accomplish all of his promises, face it, he just wants to be President just because it is his dream.

Not cheap at all, if someone is going to parrot a talking point I'd at least expect them to understand the context.

And no, "present" doesn't mean a lack of balls...it may in fact be the right choice if you aren't sure about the nature of the bill you're voting for. It's not like these people get to read everything they vote on, and often times things change at the last minute.

-spence

While the republicans may favor big business, it was the dems (Clintons in particular) who forced NAFTA down our throat, that hasn't done a whole lot of good for the little guy and helped big business get manufacturing cheaper in other countries...


I like her, and her guns. She is my kind of girl.

Didn't Biden loose his wife and daughter at a very young age? Hasn't he commuted home via train every day from Washington to raise his kids?

Did you know Biden is one of the poorest Senators currently holding a seat?

And you think his is a cake job? That's insulting to the Senator and family values as a whole.

I see a Bush style "America's the best and FU if you think different" approach to foreign relations that hasn't worked the last 8 years.

This is one thing I think the Dems understand much better than the GOP.

As Fareed Zakaria writes in his new book (from memory here)... America has succeeded in globalizing the world, but has yet to globalize itsself.

Or something like that.

The point being, that in the last decade we've seen an incredible rise among other nations. We are still the global leader, but there are so many other strong nations we can't lead with a stick (alone) any longer. This goes straight up the neocon's ass, but it's reality, and Iraq is proof in the putting. China is more proof and Georgia even more.

The world has changed (read as "not changing") and our approach must change for the USA to have the necessary influence. We're not going to become irrevelant overnight, but it's already starting to happen.

I look at the Republican platform and I see more of the same. Complete denial that the way forward is the way of the past.

-spence

I think he voted present like 90 percent of the time. Is he that stupid or does he just want to have no position on record. He must have been to busy running for President to read the bills. I wonder how many "presents" McCain has.

Blame Clinton?

Wasn't NAFTA initiated under George Bush 41?

-spence

The point is moot. The context of voting present was as an IL House member, not as a US Senator. The procedures are different.

Most US Congress people vote so infrequently it makes one wonder :huh:

-spence

:bs:

MSNBC and it's like have become the brunt of ridicule all over America. Decent people are disgusted by their blatant bias and indecent attacks on her. But the lunatic fringe can't see it through the glaze covering their retinas.

Got reasonable source for your "decent people" or "indecent attacks"?

I've watched much of their coverage (along with CNN and FOX) and have found them to be very complimentary of the potential VP.

And are you sugesting that I'm part of the lunatic fringe? If so perhaps it's your eyes that are glazed.

-spence

Looks like some more spin on Palin's part...courtesty of MSNBC for the snipah :bshake:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26550336/

-spence

And the spin keeps coming...I'd note that factcheck.org is very neutral and the same site contains critique of the DNC remarks.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2...n_part_ii.html

-spence

Obama's comments on last night.
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBXeVvoQA9M


Say what you want about Obama but he handles himself with class.


Howard

Fake photo.

-spence

Spence, I'm suprised you would actually use the word "poor" to describe Biden. I bet lot's of minimum wage earners trying to support families wouldn't mind making close to $200K a year. Oh, and he has most of his travel paid for, including his commute, among the other freebies and perks for being a Senator.

And while being a Senator is no "cake job", it is a little easier when you miss 30% of the votes. And think about the time he saves by not having to come up with speeches on his own. He just takes what others have written and take scredit for it. That gives him plenty of time to rush home on the train to spend time with his adult children and 5 grandchildren.

Big difference between "poor" and "poorest". The point being that he's made out to be the "elite" when in fact compared to his peers he's quite modest in means and has never been super rich. 200K might seem like a lot to you and me, but it's not a ton of money for a sales professional, and we're talking about someone trusted with helping to lead the Legislative branch of our government of 300 million people.

And the 30% figure is a red herring. By this measure alone John McCain stands at 64% votes missed! When you look at "votes cast" Joe Biden is higher than many Senators who have missed less than 10%.

-spence

Bill Clinton made it's legislative passage a priority in 1993

Bill Clinton was president when NAFTA was passed by the legislature.

The plan was drafted by BUsh, and never altered by Clinton before being passed.


North American Free Trade Agreement
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"NAFTA" redirects here. For other uses of the acronym, see Nafta (disambiguation).
The North American Free Trade Agreement
Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte
Accord de libre-échange nord-américain


Secretariats Mexico City, Ottawa and Washington, D.C.
Official languages English, French and Spanish
Membership Canada
Mexico
United States
Establishment
- Formation 1 January 1994
Area
- Total 21,783,850 km² (1st)
8,410,792 sq mi
- Water (%) 7.4
Population
- 2008 estimate 445,335,091 (3rd)
- Density 20.4/km² (195th)
52.9/sq mi
GDP (PPP) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,857 billion (1st)
- Per capita $35,491 (14th)
GDP (nominal) 2007 (IMF) estimate
- Total $15,723 billion (2nd)
- Per capita $35,564 (18th)
Website
http://www.nafta-sec-alena.org
The North American Free Trade Agreement (Spanish: Tratado de Libre Comercio de América del Norte [TLCAN], French: Accord de libre-échange nord-américain [ALENA]) is a trilateral trade bloc in North America created by the governments of the United States, Canada, and Mexico. The North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) has two supplements, the North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) and The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC). The agreements came into effect on January 1, 1994. In terms of combined purchasing power parity GDP of its members, as of 2007 the trade bloc is the largest in the world and second largest by nominal GDP comparison.
Contents [hide]
1 North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
2 North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
3 Further integration
4 History of the implementation
5 Effects
5.1 Trade
5.2 Industry
5.3 Environment
5.4 Agriculture
5.5 Mobility of persons
6 Criticism and controversies
6.1 Canadian disputes
6.1.1 Canadian government challenged on change in Income trust taxation
6.2 U.S. deindustrialization
6.3 Impact on Mexican farmers
6.4 Chapter 11
6.5 Chapter 19
6.6 Chapter 20
6.7 Chapter 14
7 Public opinion
8 Travel and migration
8.1 United States and Canada
8.2 The United States and Mexico
9 See also
10 References
11 External links
[edit]North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Environmental Cooperation (NAAEC) was a response to environmentalists' concerns that the United States would lower its standards if the three countries did not achieve consistent environmental regulation. The NAAEC only obligates parties to enforce their own environmental laws. The NAAEC, in an endeavour to be more than a set of environmental regulations, established the North American Commission for Environmental Cooperation, a mechanism for addressing trade and environmental issues, the North American Development Bank (NADBank) for assisting and financing investments in pollution reduction, and the Border Environmental Cooperation Commission (BECC). The NADBank and the BECC have provided economic benefits to Mexico by financing 36 projects, mostly in the water sector.[1]
[edit]North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation
The North American Agreement on Labor Cooperation (NAALC) supplements NAFTA and endeavors to create a foundation for cooperation among the three countries for the resolution of labor problems, as well as to promote greater cooperation among trade unions and social organizations in order to fight for improved labor conditions.
[edit]Further integration

While different groups advocate for a further integration into a North American Community, sensitive issues have hindered that process. The three countries have pursued different trade policies with non-members (for example, Mexico has signed FTAs with more than 40 countries in 12 agreements), making the possibility of creating a customs union difficult to accomplish. Former President Vicente Fox of Mexico had promoted the idea of enhancing NAFTA (into what he labeled "NAFTA-Plus", or possibly a North American Community), but after the September 11, 2001 attacks, priorities in the United States changed. The Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America was signed, instead, as a separate and unrelated agreement.
Given the scope of the agreement, which includes very sensitive issues in trade talks such as agriculture liberalization and environment regulation, few countries have shown interest in joining NAFTA. Instead, some countries, like Chile, preferred to negotiate three separate bilateral agreements with the three current NAFTA members, with different restrictions to liberalization of their industries and the regulation of environment protection. Jamaica and Trinidad and Tobago also showed a similar interest.[2][3][4]
In an interview with Larry King on October 8, 2007, Fox described any plans for a North American single currency as a "long term, very long term" proposal. He also spoke of he and U.S. President George W. Bush's support for the Free Trade Area of the Americas as a "first step" toward "a new vision" for the Americas, "like we are trying to do with NAFTA", but then said that Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez had decided to "destroy the idea".[5]
[edit]History of the implementation



President Bill Clinton signing NAFTA into law, November 1993
NAFTA was initially pursued by politicians in the United States and Canada supportive of free trade, led by Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney, U.S. President George H. W. Bush, and the Mexican President Carlos Salinas de Gortari. The three countries signed NAFTA in December 1992, subject to ratification by the legislatures of the three countries. There was considerable opposition in all three countries. In the United States, NAFTA was able to secure passage after Bill Clinton made its passage a major legislative priority in 1993. Since the agreement had been signed by Bush under his fast-track prerogative, Clinton did not alter the original agreement, but complemented it with the aforementioned NAAEC and NAALC. After intense political debate and the negotiation of these side agreements, the U.S. House of Representatives passed NAFTA on November 17, 1993, by 234-200 vote (132 Republicans and 102 Democrats voting in favor; 43 Republicans, 156 Democrats, and 1 independent against),[6] and the U.S. Senate passed it on the last day of its 1993 session, November 20, 1993, by 61-38 vote (34 Republicans and 27 Democrats voting in favor; 10 Republicans and 28 Democrats against, with 1 Democrat opponent not voting -- Sen. Byron Dorgan (D-ND), an ardent foe of NAFTA, missed the vote because of an illness in his family).[7]
[edit]Effects

Sounds like bi-partisan legislation to me. While I wouldn't say I'm a NAFTA supporter I have met with business leaders who attribute NAFTA for helping them be successful in the USA.

-spence

NAFTA may help business leaders to become successful (ie; higher profit margins = more money in their pockets), but is causing me and many of my co-workers to loose their jobs. Our company is moving much of the production to Mexico. All these manufacturing jobs that are lost to other countries are jobs that we will NEVER get back in this country.
F%ck NAFTA and F%ck anyone who supports it. Simply put, I'm out of a job soon because of it.

You might want to blame the "Dems" but the majority of "For" votes on NAFTA were republican and the majority of those "against" were democrat....says it right in the article above.

and that is the same in the senate as well as the House of reps.

Greed doesn't care about party lines

Would globalization not have happened without NAFTA or was it an unstoppable market force? I wish it did not happen and we retained those jobs, but that's an unreality.
I worked at a place where outsourcing and technology was taking jobs away from people doing the work I did. The writing was on the wall (for years)that it was only a matter of time.
Some people took classes, started side businesses, or learned new skills so they had options, but I was surprised that most of my co-workers passively waited for the pink slip.

Spence,

On MSNBC - a day or so ago, the headline read. Palin supports Nazi Sympathizer.
Its the job of the Press to INVESTIGATE, not just report. So, that Nazi synpathizer, its Pat Buchanan. Do you know who employs Pat Buchanan? MSNBC @!@!@@!!!! So why didnt they note that? MSNBC Hires Nazi sympathizers???? Its all about getting jabs in on headlines without any backing. Its nuts.

Everyone says teh Wright controversy is over, go to the website of the Trinity Church Obama was a member of for 20 years, look at their bookstore -
http://www.tucc.org/store/index.cfm
whats their featured item - A Black Liberation of Thelogy

What to know a few things about Black Liberation Theology?
Here are a few quotes -
All white men are responsible for white oppression. It is much too easy to say, "Racism is not my fault," or "I am not responsible for the country's inhumanity to the black man..
The demonic forces of racism are real for the black man. Theologically, Malcolm X was not far wrong when he called the white man "the devil."

So Obama attends a BLACK church (read their mission, its black focused) their bookstore sells and FEATURES books that spew hatred and divisive racism. FACts boys, the link is right there! Im not Karl Rove, Im not Rush Limbaugh. This his his church. Can you EVEN imagine if McCain or Palin's church believed this garbage or preached this about white peope????
You all are freakin becasue she mentions Our souldiers are doing God's task. And yet you have no issue with Obamas faith? No concerns?????????