yes i saw it, pretty sad :(

I think there is more to it than cheap labor

We will never see it again.

Jeez ,i still haven't read what the criteria is as to what institutions will get it, why, how much, and what they must be do with it. :doh:

Anybody know?

thats right comrade :grins:

You mean like the exploitation of innocents?

Saw on the news today Pres. Elect Obama is pushing for an immediate bailout for the struggling motor companies......any thoughts Eben?

beats me Bigfish.. I do hope that he pushes for retooling.

I just don't want him walking down Bushes path.......he needs to show that HE wants change. Won't be a good way for him to start out if he pushes for this.

time will tell.

Many "imports" are built here in factories where the workforce belongs to the UAW. ;)

pop, I think you just might have a knack for comedy!! :hihi:

I once met the guy that threw all of the extra screws on the floor to make people think parts were missing... :rotf2:

GM makes a good product (certainly at the higher end), and the product was what Americans were buying. The people that wanted the economical cars which made zero profit were buying from the Japs, the people buying the big iron (remember, gas was cheap) were buying American. I'll put an 08 Tahoe against any of its foreign completion. I will say my (second) focus is 93% the car of a Corolla or Civic for 87% of the price (I used to work in Toyota service departments, they have problems too).

Chrysler sucks :rotf2:

But we have a choice, we can bail out the AutoMFGs and take a part ownership (to sell back later) for 70billion freakin dollars, OR we can spend 50 billion freaking dollars on all of the displaced workers for GM, the suppliers, the chemists, the banks, and all of the small and medium businesses that support all of the above.

We pay either way. For those that keep buying foreign cars, keep in mind, you are not helping the US that mush. Even the ones that are made (err, assembled) here, the profits go in one of those vacuum sucky thingies back to Japan.

And WHEN the Chinese start marketing cars here in the northeast (they have their foot in the US market), put your money where your mouth is, buy American.

These bailouts are unprecedented and insane! They will do nothing but plunge us deeper in to what they call a "recession"......stupid term so people think its not really that bad. What will a true "depression" be like?? Well I think you have a better chance of finding that out if we keep bailing these companies out!! As for selling the part ownership back to the companies......I want to know what we are buying to begin with??? How do we benefit by sinking all this money into these failing companies???? They have been living high on the hog, execs getting huge insane bonuses and taking more than they really deserve.....and its the companies fault for operating like this!!! Let them dig themselves out or you can give them the bailout and we can watch their over paid friggin' execs hop a plane, the day after they get the funding, to some exotic locale' to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars pampering themselves!!! NO THANKS LADIES AND GENTLEMEN!!!! I have had enough and its got to stop....look at the AIG execs......they are livin' it up on our buck....come on sheeple!!!:hs:

John as much as i want to buy American my wallet tells me otherwise.The car manufacturers have been losing ground since the first oil embargo when they did not want to get away from the gas guzzlers and let the Japanese automakers establish a foothold here with better quality cars and better gas mileage.How many years later and they are still playing catchup.Same thing happened to the electronics industry.Now we have to bail them out because of years and years of bad decisions and greed.I look at it this way would i invest in this company (GM) if i was looking to upgrade my portfolio?I have a feeling were are buying into some bad investments.I have one ? if all goes as planned and all these bailouts pay off will i see a reduction in my taxes in the future?Or do i just assume the position and touch my knees?

:laughs:

My thoughts: GM refused to put an affordable, high mpg car in their showrooms, thus helping to cause this oil fiasco we have now. (sure prices seem low now but we all know that it is nowhere near over). They could have had a "Smart Car" but noooooo.
They have rewarded their execs far beyound anything that resembles performance. Being paid bonuses of hundreds of millions for steering the ship into the rocks is just dopey.
The jobs lost are the trumpcard and they know it. But if those jobs can go to "greener" manufacturers then the trump card is toilet paper. Take the bailout money and invest in greener companies.

I'm a lifelong GM buyer, but enough is enough. Never bought a foreign badged car or truck. Did own an F-250, but the same sentiment goes for Ford. See-Ya!

As a consumer I always buy the best product for the money. Somewhere along the way American auto makers have become inferior. I won't bail them out by buying a overpriced unreliable gas guzzler why should I bail them out any other way. When I was a kid the "Cadillac" of something meant the absolute best. Nowadays it means second rate. The Government could care less if BigfishBaitCo. or Salty's goes belly up why should we care if the billionaires at GM aren't making billions anymore. Sink or swim thats what they tell me.

i agree with NEBE, one way or another it's going to cost you and me billions. Why not try and get something out of it.

And you know if our reps and senators have their way, this will be an easy way to buy some votes are our expense.

Let's just nationalize all the auto manufacturers, their spin off subsidiaries, their suppliers and the dealer network.

And oh, throw out the union agreements with them all.

Cancel all the pensions and accumulated retirement savings of their workers.

Just like everybody else is.

Oh and in case you didn't know

According to CNN

'One of the officials noted that about one in 10 jobs in America is tied to the auto industry and that if one of the companies goes bankrupt, it could have a massive spillover effect in the credit industry and other sectors'

And another
Unless recalled to DC. Congress is out of session until after Jan 20th 2009.

How about we give every family, a check for 20 grand, good towards the purchase of any new American car. That would bail out the automakers real quick and help the people as well.

ROCKFISH for President!!:jump: Thats a great idea!

So nobody knows. :huh:

TARP is still fictional.
Those with the biggest leverage get the goods.

The pensions are federally guaranteed - but the pensioners will only get about a third of what they would have gotten.
GM directly employs about 250,000 people. It used to be 1 out of 6 jobs was tied to the auto industry nationwide - but not so anymore. I think CNN's numbers are alarmist - I don't think 1 out of 10 people will lose their jobs nationwide as a result of the auto industry collaspe, but I think it would certainly be several million to ten million. As bad as the 260,000 job losses we had last month - it would be much, much worse. Major reverberations across the economy. Million plus job loss figures month after month won't go over to well on Wall St.
Interesting that the collaspe of GM only got about 2 1/2 minutes on the national news - imagine how big a story that would have been even a couple of years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocCC1-jeTY
Sinking - Like A Rock

Just so folks know....even if they get the bailout you can bet your bottom dollar they will be cutting jobs in their restructuring process......but the fat cats at the top will still be getting all theirs!

1/3 of what the had signed up for, nice. Because they turned them over to be paid by you and me. Just like , UAL, PanAm,and PennCentral.

How much will American Axle emps get?

So we guarenteed the railroad pensions and they were exempt from paying social security? Am I wrong here?

Correct

CONING SOON!
 

The Argentinean government recently announced that they would send a proposal to the Congress by which the Pension and Retirement Plan Administration or AFJP in Spanish (also known as mutual funds in the US) would become nationalized. The AFJP privately manages millions of Argentineans' retirement funds, and under the proposal, their funds would now go to the State. The political debate will go to National Congress, but many blogs have commented on the possible changes.

On the side of those who oppose, there are two quite evident arguments: that this is a sacking of a lot of Argentineans' retirement contributions, and the only reason for this change is to increase the government's revenues in the short term. Guillermo Riera of Demasiada Información [es] states:

De seguir con el sistema de reparto, en veinte años el Estado estará imposibilitado para pagar jubilación alguna, sencillamente porque habrá tantos jubilados que no habrá recaudación que alcance.

By staying in the public system, twenty years from now the government will be unable to pay any retirement benefits at all, simply because there will be so many retired people, that there won't be enough funds for them all. :doh:

SOUND FAMILIAR ????

They want a bail out fine, since it is my tax dollars the gov should give me a check made out to GM for the price of the vehicle I want, Gm should sell me the truck of my choice for 3,000.00 over cost that way they get their money back and then some, and I the tax payer get something for giving to corporate welfare.

IMO the Gov should have required every Bank that takes money to give some kind of credit the mortgage holders....

Lost income tax revenues, pension liabilities, increased unemployment compensation, foreclosures on home owners with upside-down equity, loss of value to stocks upon release high unemployment numbers, increased burden from people without health insurance, increased trade inbalance...
Those are some of the certain costs of GM failing - those events are a certainty.
Any way you slice it, its still sh_t pie. If you bail them out and they survive - its a huge win. But if you bail them out and they fail, its an even worse loss.

sh_t pie is going to be on the table for a lot of families this Thanksgiving

And just to add gravy to the pie. The person responsible for drafting the bailout bill for the House Financial Committee is none other than our own 'Hard Bottom' Barney Frank.

HE'S DOING HIS PART
 

to bail out the auto industry....

In front of a crowd of 75,000 people in Portland, Oregon, Barack Obama made the following statement:

“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK”
Obama's limo will be a Caddy like no other

After President Obama takes the oath of office in January, he may have a shiny new black limousine to go along with his not-so-new White House. General Motors is believed to be putting the final touches on a new first car.
...
The photographer noted that the limousine was being tested, possibly for comparison purposes, with a pair of GMC Topkick medium-duty trucks. The limousine seemed to be riding on the same 19 1/2-inch Goodyear Regional RHS tires as the trucks, indicating that it is far heavier than a civilian Cadillac - even the longest stretch limousines built with the GM division's heavy-duty coachbuilder package. Indeed, it is believed that the limo is based on GM's 2500 line of trucks, which includes an extra-heavy-duty version of the Suburban.
...
Aircraft tie-downs welded to the chassis allow the limousine to be transported aboard a military cargo jet, which also often carries the Secret Service's Suburban escort vehicles and at least one limo used as a backup or decoy.

Don't forget the 2 presidential 747's

If they want our money
 

Until its all paid back: not one bonus is given,
not one raise is given,
thier are no fancy trips to exotic locales
for board of directors meetings,
not one golden parchute is awarded,

and anyone caught mispending money, that was given by us, the American people, to any company we bailed out, in any way shape or form is sent to jail.

It should be our choice not thiers.

Yeah, let them live like us for a while... You're dead on, Swimmer.

Source?

For the most part, US Toyota and Honda plants are non union. They tend to build their plants in areas where unionized laborers are not found. Attempts to unionize by the UAW have mostly failed. There may be a few unionized plants, but all of the big three plants ARE unionized. And there is a clear difference.

They say the average GM car has $1,500 tied up in health care costs in it. The average Toyota has about $110. The big three are failing. Is entirely the fault of Unions? probably not

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/num...ing-uaw-plant/

"GM and Toyota formed NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing Inc.) in 1984. The Fremont, California facility was Toyota’s first foray into American manufacturing and GM’s chance to learn about Toyota’s take on lean manufacturing. The 380-acre NUMMI facility currently cranks-out approximately 250k cars (Toyota Corolla, Pontiac Vibe) and 170k trucks (Toyota Tacoma) per year.

The NUMMI plant employs around 5440 “team members.” Some 4550 of these employees also play for the UAW. This makes NUMMI the only Toyota plant using UAW labor and one of the highest-labor-cost manufacturing facilities in the entire American automotive industry."

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/uaw-affirms-4-year-pact-mitsubishi/story.aspx?

Mitsubishi Motors North America and the United Auto Workers said on Saturday that the union's members at the Normal, Ill., plant ratified a new four-year accord.
The deal expires Aug. 30, 2012, and covers 1,264 members of UAW Local 2488, the union said.
"The agreement includes provisions guaranteeing that production will continue" at the plant through August 2012 and provides job security for the workers, while keeping the company competitive in the U.S. market, Mitsubishi

A little tidbit, post WWII, the Americans sent some of our best process engineers to Japan to teach what would become "lean" processing and six sigma. The Japanese mastered the techniques which have led to Japan being a leader in technology and eventually the automotive industry.
These techniques have been taught in the US (again) for decades but they have never been fully implemented by the US auto industry.

Same thing happened to the electronics industries in the U.S. this is history repeting itself and the govt. did not bail them out.