The stimulus already has 1 Billion earmarked for climate research.

On top of that,the Cap and Trade Bill would tax industry and energy users, us,
with additional taxes estimated at a 19% increase on home electricity alone, forget about gas and oil..
We are supposed to set the example for the rest of the world, like China, India and Third World countries are going to follow. :rolleyes:

With the little manufacturing we have now being taxed to the hilt, they will run, not walk, to other countries where they won't be taxed and there goes the loss of who knows how many more jobs.

This whole thing is a runaway train, act in haste repent at leisure. Let's see what the 1 Billion stimulus will do first ,before we go over the point of no return.
The whole stimulus plan was based on emergency, emergency now we are being told by some scientists, not all, we are headed for climate doomsday unless we do something yesterday.

Let's hope some of the 1 Billion is spent on researching machines that could extract carbon dioxide from the air as proposed by Wallace Broecker, Columbia University Oceanographer.
Worth a try before killing our economy completely.
Slow and steady.

Broecker does have some good ideas...
I'm sure many are being researched...

???????

Good luck getting actual supported facts and not a emotional, from the gut opinion.

Anyway, Cool Beans is too busying driving around in his truck waiting for Palin to speak again so he can find me laying in traffic.

LOL, that is funny as hell:rotf3::laugha:!!!
Nope I've been working a lot these past few weeks and haven't had a lot of time to sit behind my pc at home. I haven't forgotten your questions on my Man made global climate change position and will get back with you on it as soon as I get a bit more time on the computer.

OK.
Remember, SCIENCE not opinion or press articles, but science..

Don't need scientific literature, Rock, have you been outside at all this year?....if 1998 was the hottest year on record and we have far more CO2 in the atmosphere 10 or 11 years later and Al Gore's giant graph on Oprah recently with the gigantic arrow pointing straight upward is correct...then how is it that we are consistently 20-25 degrees BELOW the recored temps every single day, most of which were set in the 30's and 40's.. if Al Gore is right then this is simply impossible!! I pull up the NBC 10 weather chart every day which shows high/low... average high/low and record high/low and we are consistently under....HOW!!!....WHY!!! you only prefer "climate change" because it covers your ass either way...here's a bulletin...THE CLIMATE IS ALWAYS CHANGING...always has, always will...
I should not be out fishing at night in July and freezing my ass off...but it's worth it :rotf3:
if this is the result of GLOBAL WARMING...bring it on!

I'm worried about the guys that were posting here over the holiday weeekend rather than fishing:drool:

Nice schoolies Scott. :D

Man-made climate change instead of global warming is the more scientific term, because it doesn't warm everywhere.
And yes, it changes all the time, but it boils down to the rate and amounts of change we are seeing in a relatively short time, that isn't seen in the historical, or geological past.

Remember, weather patterns and climate are two vastly different things.
This summer has been screwed up by a pervasive shift in the jet stream that has been pumping low pressure systems at us non-stop.

I just find it completely illogical how people can think we have zero impact on the earths climate.

[QUOTE=RIROCKHOUND;699146]

This summer has been screwed up by a pervasive shift in the jet stream that has been pumping low pressure systems at us non-stop.

Australia too? just call it "climate change" instead of "global warming" blame humans and commence massive taxation because that always solves everything :rolleyes:

Minus 13 degrees - the coldest it's been in April
Brett Dutschke, Wednesday April 29, 2009 - 14:58 EST
A new Australian record was set early this morning, a temperature of minus 13 degrees, at Charlotte Pass on the Snowy Mountains.

This is the lowest temperature recorded anywhere in Australia in April and is 13 below the average. Nearby at Perisher it dipped to minus 11 degrees and at the top of Thredbo it dipped to minus 10.

Across the border, on the Victorian Alps April records were broken at Mt Hotham where it chilled to minus eight degrees and Mt Buller and Falls Creek where it got as low as minus seven.

A few other locations set April low temperature records also. In Tasmania Lake Leake was as cold as minus six, Sheffield and Dover both reached minus one and Flinders island got to zero. Hobart had its coldest April night in 46 years, recording a low of 1.7 degrees, seven below average.

Global climate change is a fraud because it was cold in Australia.

Yea Bryan, he's really got you there :bounce:

-spence

It goes right in line with my opinion of how the average American follows any news item.

They perceive what is happening right this moment, and that observation is fact. Have an unseasonably cool month in June - there's no way Global Warming exists. Longer than typical Indian Summer in February - Global Warming is going to murder our children tomorrow.

The average person doesn't have the capability to look at trends - here-and-now emotional responses are all many are capable of.

Perfect example is the direct corollary some people use when comparing what the stock market has done *today* and how the economy is doing. Market goes up, and the economy is improving. Next day the Market goes down, and we're headed for a depression.

There's very little critical thinking, just single observations then comments.

as usual Spence, you completely invent a fraudulent statement, where is your integrity? "Global Climate Change" is occuring all of the time(this may be alien to you) it began changing as soon as the atmosphere was formed and will continue until a wayward meteor destroys the planet unless we do it first.....the POINT is that 1998 was deemed the hottest year ever and has been followed by year after year where the "culprits" of supposed global warming have increased every year in the atmosphere and the planet has cooled????...I cited Australia to show that not only here but across the planet(even on the other side) RECORD cold temps for extended periods are constantly being recorded ...this cannot possibly be occuring if "THE PLANET HAS A FEVER" that began ten years ago when the planet was the hottest that it has ever been and it was "only going to get worse" ...NOT...it's that simple, you can throw out all of your gobligook but you cannot explain this fact....you are perpetuating the greatest SCAM in the planet's history...SHAME ON YOU! :nailem:

How exactly?

Anyone can find specific locations where temperatures have been statistically low for a period of time. It doesn't change the fact that the Average Global Temperature is up.

uhhh stimulus, budgets, waste............lets try to stay on topic here boys. Damn scientist always going off on tangents...... anyone hear that there are no bunker around????????

Jimmy, time to move onto "another(the next) stimulus"...should be a winner:spin:

JD...10 years after the planet began burning up there should be NO record low temperatures ANYWHERE...the problem with liars (Al Gore) is that they have to constantly lie to cover up the big intitial lie, while it's be immensely profitable for him, it is global deceit and will be proven so, the AGW nuts are just hoping to shove their agend up your butt as quickly as possible so that they can take credit as the cooling continues for magically fixing everything as we all shiver because oil is banned and the windmill won't turn

you must have a really high IQ ?

10 years? In global climate terms, 10 years isn't even a speck on the radar.

[QUOTE=RIJIMMY;699221]uhhh stimulus, budgets, waste............lets try to stay on topic here boys. QUOTE]

here ya go Jimmy, "if at first you don't succeed, bankrupt yet another generation"...maybe they'll have a big, expensive party and work everything out...print more money, more deficit spending, higher taxes, strangle industry, these guys really know what they're doing...

Democrats Split on Stimulus as Job Losses Mount, Deficit Soars By Matthew Benjamin

July 8 (Bloomberg) -- Democrats who control the levers of power in Washington are divided over whether to push for more deficit spending to end the recession and stem job losses(that assumes more deficit spending will accomplish this), complicating the possibility of a second stimulus bill.

“We need to be open to whether or not we need further action,” House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer, a Maryland Democrat, told reporters yesterday. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid of Nevada countered that “there is no showing to me that another stimulus is needed.” (yet)

President Barack Obama underscored the dilemma by addressing both sides of the argument.(fence) In an interview with ABC News yesterday, he said unemployment approaching 10 percent (wait, he said the first stimulus would keep it at 8%, emergency, emergency!) is something “we wrestle with constantly.” He added that spending more borrowed money is “potentially counterproductive.” brilliant stuff?...you know he really wants to..
The split reflects two major challenges facing the Democrats: Record budget deficits that make additional spending much tougher to pass and a 26-year-high unemployment rate of 9.5 percent that is expected to rise to double digits. (spending money that they don't have and more government dependents, Dems should be quite happy)

“They’re between a rock and a hard place,” said Stuart Rothenberg, editor of the Rothenberg Political Report in Washington.

The U.S. economy lost 467,000 jobs in June(but the trends are POSITIVE), exceeding economists’ forecasts, while the federal budget deficit is projected by the Congressional Budget Office to top $1.8 trillion this year(that's nothing) and $1.4 trillion in fiscal 2010. That’s provoked criticism of the $787 billion stimulus bill passed in February as either wasteful or not large enough. (how about STUPID)

Borrowing Surge (the SURGE has failed)

The Treasury is increasing debt sales to pay for the spending. After more than doubling note and bond offerings to $963 billion in the first half, another $1.1 trillion may be sold by year-end, according to Barclays Plc. The second-half sales would be more than the total amount of debt sold in all of 2008.

The U.S. should consider drafting a second stimulus package focusing on infrastructure projects because the bill approved in February was “a bit too small,” said Laura Tyson, an adviser to Obama during last year’s presidential campaign who now sits on the White House’s Economic Recovery Advisory Board. (one Trillion...do I hear Two Trillion??(should be twice as effective)...Barney bids 3 Trillion!!...do I hear 3.5 Trillion???

Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat whose home state has a 12 percent jobless rate, told ABCNews.com that a second stimulus is “probably needed.” Action by Congress would “probably take place towards the end of the year,” Whitehouse said. (stop talking moron)

With the White House and congressional Democrats focused on a major health-care overhaul(destruction and govt. takeover) and a climate(scam) bill, some lawmakers expressed pessimism about the likelihood of such legislation. (yeah, right...we really didn't want to stimulate again but it was an emergency)

Will there be a third stimulus...right before the depression officially begins?

You sure got me Dr. Science. I guess the fact that 2008 saw one of the warmest months on record and that the yearly averages look like this:

http://theenvironmentshow.com/wp-con...-from-nasa.jpg

Seem to support your sceintific theory that the Earth is indeed entering a dramatic period of cooling contrary to increasing output of greenhouse gasses.

I'm guessing you either stopped your education at the 8th grade, or really didn't pay attention in high school statistics.

Quote:

I cited Australia to show that not only here but across the planet(even on the other side) RECORD cold temps for extended periods are constantly being recorded

Only an idiot would measure climate change with a 10 year sample, or perhaps someone out to ignore science and make a political point.

RIROCKHOUND sure called that one.

-spence

you have it backward, this is all about politics and has very little to do with science, is Al Gore a Politician of a Scientist?...why is the solution massive government take over of industry and meddling into every aspect of our lives together with massive taxation??? Because this is nothing more that a STATIST tool to acquire more power...

there are an awful lot of PHD idiots running around that dipute this data and "SCIENCE", but just like welfare, it's become a cottage industry for the left....time will tell, just hope we can recover from the damage that will be done ....

BTW..it's GLOBAL WARMING, climate change is a cop out, this began as global warming, didn't you see the movie?... and is not new, the left has run with coming ice ages and then the global burning up every 25 years for the last century, they've tried this crap before, just can't seem to make up their minds...


NOPE, WE"RE SCREWED....OBAMA RULES THE PLANET TEMPERATURES
Philip Webster, Political Editor, in L’Aquila
President Obama and other leaders backed historic new targets for tackling global warming last night in an agreement designed to pave the way for a world deal in the autumn.

For the first time, America and the other seven richest economies agreed to the goal of keeping the world’s average temperature from rising more than 2C (3.6F).

They also agreed to cut greenhouse gas emissions by 80 per cent by 2050 as they strove for a worldwide deal at Copenhagen in December.
better start "eliminating" a lot of people

I don't know why you continue to reference Al Gore. Aside from by you, he hasn't been referenced once in this post. And no, I didn't see the movie.

You, sir, are conflating the topic.

As a note, a PhD doesn't immediately make you the definitive source for reliable information.

That's because ScottW has been blinded by the punditry. He doesn't understand the difference between science and politics so to him they are one in the same. All a fraud...

Classic ostrich head in the sand syndrome.

Wow, Bryan sure nailed this one.

-spence

:agree: :hihi:

Actually, there are many such graphs of varying and similar time periods that conflict with yours. And there are various "interpretations" of your and other graphs. There is an immense amount of information and chatter, pro and con Global Warming/Climate Change. You can pick and choose whatever suits your agenda, leaving out contradictions and make a solid appearing argument either way. Most of the studies actually contradict your position.

In geologic time, 120 years is also too short to prove anymore than what occured in that 120 years, wherein, by the way, man-made use of fossil fuels were not a problem for half the graph. Also, the beginning of the graph enters on a downstroke indicating a higher level of warming before MMGW. It also shows another drop and leveling of temps at the time when MMGW might reasonably begin to show some effect. Then a big 20 YEAR spike and then the beginning of the present temp drop into a predicted 30 year cooling. This graph has no significant indication of Man Made Global Warming.

Global temps peaked in 1998 and have been cooling each year since. The warming and cooling were predictable due to HUNDREDS OF YEARS of historical trends and observation of the impact of variations in solar activity on global temperature. Global temps are falling even though atmospheric CO2 levels continue to increase. Antarctica had the most ice ever recorded at the end of 2008. When adding the April 2009 ice extent at both polls together, there was the same amount of polar ice as 30 years ago. According to NASA, the earth's oceans have been cooling since 2003 and may be entering a 30 year cooling period.

Here are excerpts from a few abstracts in peer reviewed studies and/or major scientific journal articles disputing Man-Made Gobal Warming (CAPS are mine):
(1) "Some researchers say the data make SOLAR VARIABILITY the LEADING HYPOTHESIS to explain the 1500 YEAR oscillation of climate seen since the last ice age, and that the sun could also add to the greenhouse warming of the next few years."
(2) "A review of the recent referred literature FAILS TO CONFIRM quantitatively that CO2 radiative forcing was the prime mover in the changes in temperature, ice sheet volume, and related climatic variables in the glacial and interglacial episodes of the past 650,000 years . . . atmospheric CO2 variations generally FOLLOW changes in temperature and other climatic variables rather than preceding them."
(3) "The authors indentify and describe the following global forces of nature driving the earth's clilmate: (1) solar radiation as a dominant external energy supplier to earth, (2) outgassing as a major supplier of gasses to the world ocean and the atmosphere , and, possibly, (3) microbial activities generating and consuming atmospheric gases at the interface of lithosphere and atmosphere . . . the writers SHOW THAT HUMAN INDUCED CLIMATIC CHANGES ARE NEGLIGIBLE."
(4) "Several recent studies claim to have found evidence of large scale climate changes attributed to human influences. These assertions are based on increases of correlation over time between general circulation model prognostications and observations as derived from a centered pattern correlation statistic. We argue that the results of such studies ARE INAPPROPRIATE because of limitations and biases in these statistics which leads us to conclude that THE RESULTS OF MANY STUDIES EMPLOYING THESE STATISTICS MAY BE ERRONEOUS and, in fact, SHOW LITTLE EVIDENCE OF A HUMAN FINGERPRINT IN THE OBSERVED RECORDS."
(5) "The atmospheric greenhouse effect, an idea that authors trace back to the traditional works of Fourier 1824, Tyndall 1861, and Arrhenius 1896, and which is still supported in global climatology, ESSENTIALLY DESCRIBES A FICTITIOUS MECHANISM, in which a planetary atmosphere acts as a heat pump . . . according to the SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS SUCH A PLANETARY MACHINE CAN NEVER EXIST. Nevertheless, in almost all texts of global climatology . . . it is taken for granted that such mechanism is real . . . in this paper the popular conjecture is analyzed and . . . THE ATMOSPHERIC GREENHOUSE CONJECTURE IS FALSIFIED.

31,000 American scientists signed a petition against global warming.

According to the National Climate Data Center, 2008 temperatures in the U.S.A were below the 115 year average.

April 2009 temps were 0.8f below the 20th century average.

Al Gore and "climate change" makes Bush and oil look like nothing. He's the biggest fraud and scam artist since Madoff.

I don't have time to go point by point right now.

1. Are you a geologist?
2. I hate this quote. a. How many of the 31,000 were/are have a background in climate, climatology, geology or some other science where this is THEIR field... b. how many WOULDN'T sign it!

that's just American scientists...but go ahead and find a way to dismiss them all....they're probably all idiots...right Spence and JD?:banano:

Wait for it.....







Wait for it....





At least no wars were started by Gore over climate change.

I'm only kidding. I never really liked that argument.

What's my position?

-spence

hands on the ankles? :jester:

sorry ..too easy, have a great weekend buddy, try to go fishing, OK?

Never said that. I said having a PhD doesn't make you a definitive source. Hell, there is a whole list of reputable scientists that either think Global Warming is not happening, is a natural occurrence, or could possibly benefit us.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...global_warming

Keep in mind, there was also a laundry list of scientists that argued man would never walk on the moon or develop a cure for cancer (we're pretty darn close).

However, people that use this as evidence against climate change *are* idiots. "It was 46 degrees outside last night in the middle of July. There's no way Global Warming exists."

RECORD COLD IN THE ERA OF GLOBAL WARMING

NEW ZEALAND

May the coldest on record, Niwa figures show
Matt Stewart | 10th July 2009

Wairarapa certainly played its part in the record-breaking chill that gripped the country during May, with Martinborough plunged into gloom courtesy of a paltry 92 hours of sunshine.

Niwa senior climate scientist Georgina Griffiths said May "broke records from one end of the country to the other - it was the coldest May on record", and there was nothing much to toast in the South Wairarapa wine village, which registered 69 percent of normal sunshine hours for May - the lowest figure for the town since records began.

name one...I would think that most scientist are optimists and WOULD believe that cures for cancer exist and that man COULD walk on the moon, where the hell do you get that, again, NAME ONE...another straw dog...you and Spence constantly declare those that disagree with you are non-thinking idiots...really not very nice if you ask me:rollem:

For one, please cite some examples of me calling someone an idiot merely because they disagree with me.

Second, I was saying that people that say things like, "there can't be global warming, look how cold it has been this summer" are idiots.

And again he resorts to placing words in people's mouths.

Never said such a thing, read my posts again.

-spence

so what you are saying is that you both referred to people that disagree with you as IDIOTS(which you both did) in this thread but neither of you ever called anyone an idiot for disagreeing with you....I think I'm starting to figure you two out....:smash: and...Obama was clearly not checking out that little girls ass...but if he was, it's perfectly OK ....:rolleyes:

One again, where exactly?

I don't see it.

Unless ScottW agrees that his logic is idiotic and is feeling tremendously guilty for it.

-spence

THIS IS A MEDIA ARTICLE.

read the G-D Science, not the frigging new-press reworded garbage.
The scientists quoted would probably never say that it was 'Record cold in the middle of global warming' He would say that there is WEATHER and CLIMATE.

Pick up and read "The Long Thaw" by David Archer or "Our Threatened Oceans" by Stefan Rahmstorf... or "The Two Mile Time Machine" by Richard Alley... those are books written by scientists, NOT writers writing about science, but actual Scientists (novel idea, huh?). Go to realclimate.org and read actual scientists opinions and debates on relevant topics.

Archer is the Preeminent climate modeler in the world, and Rahmstorf is one of the leading experts on Sea level rise and physical oceanography. His work shows that the IPCC models from 10-20 years ago are actually pretty damn accurate based on satellite altimetery measurements of sea-level rise. Richard Alley is one of the big time-guys in everything ice core and big-picture climatology/glaciology. .


Read them as a skeptic, read them as a non-believer, whatever.
they will open your eyes. If these books at the very least don't open your eyes to the possibility that we have an impact to the future of our planet and natural resources, then your own predispositions are clouding your mind, Period.

Until 4 or 5 years ago, I was a skeptic when it came to human induced climate change... then I read the science... Do I believe that the world will end at 2deg C above present temperatures? Nope, but I do believe that it will have significant consequences to our way of life, agriculture, water resources and even fish/marine (read fish, lobsters etc..) life.

Let me ask this:
Increasing CO2 in the oceans as almost, absolutely been shown to have a deleterious effect on coral and other Carbonate marine organisms... the oceans are huge, how can we raise CO2 and cause this, we have no impact... oh right, the coral bleaching and weakened shells of certain mollusks and bivalves in recent decades is all a lie... or, the science is wrong, there are tons of fish, little old us can't have a big impact on overfishing...

I would believe most scientists are neither optimists or pessimists. the data shows what it shows, and while there is a certain amount of 'if I hadn't of believed it, I wouldn't have seen it' A GOOD scientist keeps his mind open to other explanations. They should not and usually do not have some ill-founded predisposition to a political ideology. Do some? of course, we are human.

And for the record, healthy debate is a good thing, going around in circles is not. All the issues you raised above, especially sunspots, were further study when that hypothesis had lots of backers, and found there is not a direct link to climate and sunspots, and while there is a 1500year cycle, it is strongest during the glacial stages, and hasn;t been overly prevalent in the last 6,000 years or so.

then again, what the %$%$%$%$ do I know, right. :smash:

Until people post the science, preferably from a peer reviewed journal, to go with their posts on climate change, I'm done. That is healthy debate. Posting random news clip is bull%$%$%$%$. I can probably find a newspaper or blog that blames it all on the world being flat and the center of the universe. Then again there are plenty that don't believe the earth is more than 7,000 years old...