As is the major issue of the United States' Open-Door Policy on immigration.

What this country needs to do is restrict all immigration (and working Visas) to those people that will actually benefit society. This country needs to get out of the business of making everyone feel good, and back into the business of getting our heads above the water.

You have a Master's Degree and are already set up with a job? Welcome to America!

You're 35 years old, don't have a secondary education nor any technical training skills? Goodbye!

I'm 90% onboard with this.....But I don't feel they need to come here all trained and ready to go.....If they want to come here....willing to work for what they get I'm OK with that....If that means janitor by night and schooling during the day......so be it.

Just come here and plan on working for your dream.

Schools are already over populated and prices for a BA or advanced decree are increasing at an exponential rate.

No immigrant janitor will be making enough money to put themselves through school. So, they stop attending school because they can't afford it, or petition for one of the dozens of programs that will pay to put them through school.

These are people you might dub as "potential contributors to society". As I tell my sales people, you can't run a business on potential customers.

This country is like one big Charity Foundation. Let's get the homeless veterans and homeless children that already live here taken care of first, before we open the door to more people needing handouts.

I agree 100%. My girlfriend did it while raising 2 kids. It's called the American Dream and it's still there( for now) for those that are willing to work for it. No excuses

Maybe we should implement one or two requirements that the Aussie's have for citizenship

Skilled worker
Have a job
English language ability

Agree JD, but at this point how do we do it?

Interesting though how some immigrants work menial jobs, or sleep 10 to an apartment until they raise the capital for a convenience store, motel or restaurant, and then within one generation their children enter the professional class.

People from other countries see opportunity that many native Americans don't - or look down upon as beneath us. The top three ways Americans acquire wealth are: inheritance, business ownership, a distant third is working in a well-paying field. Yet our culture only really respects professionals.

But if you've been sewing shirts in Ecuador for thirteen hours a day for $5 a day, then working twelve hours a day in a bodega and sleeping upstairs with a full stomach, tax-free money in your pocket, a high speed internet connection, cable television and a window air conditioner - is paradise.

It's also part of who we are. If someone behaves in a socialistic manner out of a genuine sense of charity or belief in equality does that make their intention bad? Like usual, this isn't a world of extremes.

What about the socialist/marxist creaters and doers? For example, a lot of good art and music certainly came out of mother Russia.

One could even argue that the "slacker" mentality in the US is a byproduct of the wealth from a free market society. Does that mean it's rooted in socialism? Seems a bit contradictory to me.

This is relative to your particular reference frame. Generally speaking, most of us don't have influence beyond ourselves, our family and perhaps our job. I expect my influence on history to be somewhat contained, although I am working hard to prove otherwise.

The influence on history of the few in selected positions of power or more importantly the behavior of the mass has a much larger bearing on how history will be written.

I have noticed you tend to look for differences where as I tend to look for similarities. This would make sense as I usually operate on a spectrum where you seem to go towards extremes.

I'm not sure this has anything to do with ideology though, unless it's just validation that I'm a centrist and you're perhaps on the fringe.

-spence

Just what are you in the center of? Does quantum theory, or relativity theory have a center? Does the universe have a center? What is the center of your existence? Do you exist in the middle of some pre-determined historical warp? What is the center of the constant motion and evolution of life? Even more curious, what is the fringe? Is not every point in space and time the center? And at the same moment, is not every point the fringe? You are no more in the center than I, nor I anymore on the fringe than you.

I can fully agree with this.

The whole English language in the US subject is one of the few issues in this country that actually angers me quite considerably. Don't know why, but everyone has their few triggers, and that is one of mine. I'm not going to get started aside from saying that it'll never happen because we want everyone to feel good and welcomed in this state. Make sure to Press 1 for English.


justplugit,
To answer your question, lock down the doors except to those in Fly Rod's post.

Unfortunately, this is not the case for most. Considering that 95% of small businesses fail (and a higher rate for restaurants), that's not a good outlook for the immigrants that come here with hopes of the American dream.

For every CNN headlined story about someone who came to the states and accomplished "The American Dream", I'd be willing to bet money there are more than a thousand more that came to this country with the same hopes and failed. As such, it is not in the United State's best interest to allow these people to come here.

This isn't the early 1900s where enough money for a steamship ride to America, combined with hard work, yields a good chance to solidify a better, self-sustaining life for you and your family. We have shifted away from a country with a strong factory and manufacturing job base, to one that is significantly service based with jobs that require specialized skills and experience in order to make similarly waged jobs.

And to make it even more difficult to achieve the so-called "American Dream"...
Today's Bachelor Degree, is yesteryear's High School Diploma.

Didn't say the guy had to go to Harvard Law School.....He could go to a trade school or take a course @ ITT Tech for all I care...as long as he comes here, Works, and pays his taxes I'd be happy to sit down and have a beer with the guy.

Instead of always looking at the worst case scenario....which of course will happen....how about looking at the best case scenario....where the guy actually does work hard and puts his kids though school and eventually get his own house.....That happens too you know

Every Kid born in America is a Potential Contributor to Society. Until they stop Crapping their diaper or Raiding the refrigerator and enter the work force they really don't contribute do they?

Do you tell your Sales guys to ignore folks without giving them a chance to make a purchase? Or do you tell them to look at every opportunity that is presented as a Sales Opportunity

Whats weird is I agree with this statement......I'm not saying that every dipchit that wants to come here should be allowed to stay....if they are here legally w/ a work visa you can see if they are productive....and they are welcome to stay....if not, See Ya.....Don't let the door knob hit ya where the good lord split ya.

:rotf2::rotf2::rotf2::rotf2::rotf2:

[QUOTE=JohnnyD]95% of small businesses fail
Wow! I did not know that.

[QUOTE=Joe;717329]it's not accurate

from USA Today
"In other words, they had what David Birch, former head of a research firm specializing in studying small business data, called the "I Had No Idea" syndrome. Would-be entrepreneurs don't realize what's truly involved with running a business.

So what is your chance of success? I think Birch's statistics are probably as accurate as any. His survival rates:

• First year: 85%
• Second: 70%
• Third: 62%
• Fourth: 55%
• Fifth: 50%
• Sixth: 47%
• Seventh: 44%
• Eighth: 41%
• Ninth: 38%
• Tenth: 35%

"Once you've hit five years, your odds of survival go way up," Birch said. "Only two to three percent of businesses older than five shut down each year."

The lesson? To greatly increase your chance of success, find out as much as you can BEFORE you open your doors. Talk to people who run their own businesses, especially businesses similar to yours, and get a realistic understanding of the time, financial, and emotional resources necessary. Keep your eyes open — not to the possibility of failure, but to the very real demands of running your own business.

So … what about that 90% failure rate cited on the radio? I went to the station's Web site and replayed the story. Listening closely, I realized they didn't mention any time period. So, perhaps the professor is right after all. I think it's safe to assume that within some period of time — oh, let's say 50 years — 90% of all businesses will close. I can live with those odds.

Rhonda Abrams is author of The Successful Business Plan: Secrets & Strategies and president of The Planning Shop, publishers of books and other tools for business plans. Register for Rhonda's free business planning newsletter at The Planning Shop - Write a successful business plan

When I was taking business classes as an adult student there was a professor who did an informal poll of where students expected to find employment after graduation - about 1/3 expected to work in a family business after graduation.

And this article says 80% 5-year fail rate:
USI: College of Business--Small business failure rates

This one says 70% over 10-years:
Startup Failure Rates — The REAL Numbers | Small Business Trends

In his book, E-Myth Revisited, Michael Gerber states over 80% fail rate over 5 years.


As such, while my 2:47AM post after a night of fishing was grossly over exaggerated, it doesn't change the fact that somewhere between 7 and 8 out of 10 small businesses fail within 5 years. That letting people immigrate here with the mindset "maybe they'll live in squander with 10 other people to save up and start a successful business" is horribly misguided.

Like I said before, take care of people in this country first before worrying about those from another country. America is neither the worlds Police Force, nor its Welfare department.

Also, how many small businesses stay alive for extra years, on life-support strictly because the owner thrusts him/her self into debt and works 18 hours/day?


Joe, I don't think the sample of students in a business class is an accurate sample. If I had a kid and was planing on having them work for my business, I'd want them to have formal business training.

The best case scenario is not the statistically most probable scenario. I own a small business. I know how much hard work it can be, how much feeder money they can take, how considerably unanticipated expenses can add up in a flash. Serial Entrepreneurs often fail more than they succeed (but when they succeed, they do so very big).

Nope. As I'm sure you've read in some of my other posts, if they don't grow up, get a job and contribute to society, then they shouldn't benefit from it either with a free paycheck/health care to sit on the couch.

Apples to Oranges. But, bringing this up provides a convenient analogy for my point. We run about a 10-15% successful sales rate on potential customers. Most phone calls, RFPs, site inspections and meetings are at a loss because we never see a cent of business from that person. However, the sales we do make, pay out very well at a high margin.

Quite exactly like a statistical sample of Start-ups. Most Fail - plain and simple. The ones that don't, tend to pay out dividends well (be it to provide a better quality of life, more money in the pocket, or just financial security).

Thanks to the US open-door policy, there is no way for INS to keep track of all these people. If a VISA expires, the only way that person gets deported, is if they somehow fall across the system - they try to fly, get arrested, (or as a personal friend did) took a bus to visit family in Canada without renewing their work VISA and get denied re-entry.

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;717373]

As such, while my 2:47AM post after a night of fishing was grossly over exaggerated.yes it was

That letting people immigrate here with the mindset "maybe they'll live in squander with 10 other people to save up and start a successful business" is horribly misguided. who suggested that anyone is "letting" anyone immigrate here with that horribly misguided mindset?...I'm guessing most would just like some kind of stable employment, starting a business is a LONG way from basic employment....that would be a funny sign at the border though..."IF YOU THINK YOU CAN JUST COME HERE AND LIVE IN "SQUANDER" WITH 10 OTHER PEOPLE AND SAVE UP TO START YOUR OWN BUSINESS...YOU'VE GOT ANOTHER THING COMING:uhuh:"


. America is neither the worlds Police Force, nor its Welfare department. currently it is both

MANY BUSINESSES CLOSE FOR MANY REASONS AND NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE THEY "FAILED"

QUOTE]

They can also work for somebody else...they don't need to neccesarily start their own business. They can be electricians, plumbers, carpenters, roofer, landscapers....and work for somebody else....and do so legally and pay their share of taxes



Nothing wrong their...I agree with that


Also helps illustrate my point....you still don't ignore the other 85-90% until they don't pan out.....you allow it the chance turn into a sale...if it doesn't then you drop it


And there in lies where the Fixing needs to come in...thats the part of the system that is screwed up and causing the problems. I said earlier I didn't want an open door policy...they need to come here legally through a System that actually works

What kind of conservative are you?

With regards to the 10 people living in squander comment I made, if you had actually read the whole thread as opposed to trying to pick a fight, Joe mentioned that some immigrants live 10 to an apartment to save up the money to start a business.

I challenge anyone to demonstrate a situation where 10 people living in an apartment is not living in squander.

The minute the US customs says welcome to America to a non-citizen here for an extended stay, they're potentially "letting" someone immigrate here. My position is that they shouldn't unless it's for good reason and they can contribute to society.

I still stand that America *is not* the worlds Police Force or Welfare Agency. The problem is that many think it should be - like those that think we should get involved with Iran, send Aid to Africa or any number of international issues we get involved with more than any other country does.

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.

Without any skills or education, they can't do any of those things - aside from landscaping, which I did find as a fun job while in high school.

The reason you cannot let anyone come here and see if it pans out is because there is currently no capability for oversight. INS is overstretched beyond any effective operating capability. The Dallas bomb plotter that was just arrested was here on an expired VISA.
This article demonstrates that the US has *no* effective way of tracing whether Foreign Visitors have actually left the country or not.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2360429/posts
I believe at least one of the 9/11 hijackers was here on an expired visa.

Without the capability for oversight, the "benefit of the doubt" method can't be used. So yes, if they don't have any skills, aren't here to 100% pay for their own education or aren't here merely for a visit (with confirmed travel plans), they should not be allowed to enter.


Until that system actually works, everything else needs to be stopped. I'm not saying that eventually, your suggested "give people a chance" shouldn't happen. My argument is that under the current circumstances of INS and all other government offices that deal with immigration, the oversight is not there to prevent these people from possibly becoming an additional leech on an already overburdened economy.

[QUOTE=JohnnyD;717396]What kind of conservative are you?

With regards to the 10 people living in squander comment I made,




I don't think it's possible to live in "squander" and save money at the same time...:soon:

Yes, businesses do close for many reasons, but the number one reason is because they could no longer sustain themselves - ie: They Failed.[/QUOTE]


99% ?

[QUOTE=scottw;717406]True. That is the completely wrong word than the thoughts going on in my head.

99% ?[/QUOTE]

When was 99% ever mentioned?

Really, You need extensive schooling to be a roofer.

I got a friend that is a GC and he started by just being a day laborer lugging building supplies around. Learned on the job started carpentry, pay when up opportunities went up and he is where he is now.......and no additional schooling needed.

Any profession takes time to master. An Electrician can go to school and then has to log in so many hours as a journeyman....I'm pretty sure thats the same for a plumber


I'm not arguing with you about the fact that the US INS service sucks....I know it does....it needs to be fixed. There needs to be a screening process, a checkin process......a lot of processes....I know that

and the terrorist examples are kind of weak.....c'mon 3 million untrackable VISA's and your going to pull out the fact that 2 of them are terrorists......your better than that

and this will give the same red tape headaches as the current system.

Once they're in....they're in. no guarantees they're leaving or are going to pay their own way

99% ?[/QUOTE]

you said that "the number one reason" was a result of "failure"...based on your recent record of exaggeration I assumed that to be around 99%...I won't ask how big the fish was that you caught last night....:rotf2:

You're right about that. But, we also have millions of Americans here without jobs. So let more people come in without any skills to take them?

I don't know the details of how the tradesman fields work aside from Electrician.



The terrorist example is just a high profile one. Also, I believe both of those people had been pulled over by police at one point or another and released (I know this minimally the case for the hijacker), which demonstrates yet another hole in the system. I used it as an example of the ultimate price paid for the system being extremely over-burdened and essentially made impotent by the current open-door policy.


How? People could be culled out during the application process. Anything is better than the current state of things.

You're right. But if there was a system in place to increase the odds those people will be productive citizens, we're already at a net-gain. Then, there are fewer immigrants needed to be overseen - another net-gain.

Ultimately, the country needs a policy of that if they apply for government assistance, the only assistance they get is enough for a plane ticket back where they came.

Oh I see. The Glen Beck method of debate.

The number one cause of death in America is heart disease. I guess that means 99% of people die of heart disease?

How do you verify that a guy is going to pay his own way. Now you need to tie Banking systems into the approval process. How do you verify that a guy has Skill sets? Based on the schooling aspects you now have to tie in access to the places of Higher Learning into the approval process. Here for a vacation, what hotel are you staying at? oh you're not staying at a hotel? who's house then will you be staying at? Oh you're here to visit the national park.....which ones, what Campsites are you staying at?

Also, how about a criminal background check. That is one that should be mandatory....you got a record....see ya.

that's a lot of red tape.

I agree they need an approval process...and also a monitoring process....but you still have to let people in at some point.

If we didn't just think how crappy the Indian, Chinese, and Mexican food would taste

Again, that's the system that needs to be fixed. There should be a minimum waiting period, an interview process, and a "Business Plan" submitted.......Like Twisted Sister Said "what are you going to do with your life"

See we can agree...I'm all for that one.

if you keep making these crazy statements, noone is going to believe anything that you say....

If you keep selectively deleting the parts of a quote that you don't like, no one is going to believe anything that you say.

You're actually the one that's made crazy statements. See your last 3 posts as a reference.

You think anyone believes anything he says now?

I'm not sure what purpose he serves aside from increasing the entropy of the system.

-spence

JD, it's.... SQUALOR....and it's NOT 95%......got it?... I'm crazy...right...:devil2:


Spence, better get back to affecting history from your Mom's basement one fishing website at a time...:uhuh: you'd better be nice to me now that you've divulged that we are blood brothers from another mother....:love: