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Guys thank you for your honest remarks! I have no doubt about your passion for this fish...I do agree that if we don't see some recruiting pretty soon than the ASMFC will contract on the quotas a bit to help curb anything catestrophic from happenning. I also would put this on the table as well, if they ever stopped commercial bass and then cut the rec take to one a day...and the YOY index did not come back...would you still blame management or would you start to be lieve that more biological issues are causing the lack of fish? I still have not seen this down turn, but I don't target schoolies I target keeper sized fish for my charters and obviously commercial sized fish...I do surf fish on some southern facing beaches in May and June and found plenty of fish there all last spring, maybe I just got lucky! Doug
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there are probably 10 times as many people fishing for stripers now than when the limit was 1@34..... So even if the take limit was reduced to 1 a day, more would be killed than in the late 80's...
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Thanks, Piemma, for your thoughts.....I think most boat/surf fishermen don't realize that when the numbers mentioned by ASMFC for recreational catches are mentioned, that the charter industry is probaly the major factor for that increase. When you look up and down the Coast, and tabulate the number of charter boats chasing bass, it becomes pretty clear where the fish are going. In Connecticut, New York, RI, for instance, even head boats fish for stripers (probaly NJ, also)....a lot of 6-pack captains do double trips (AM, late afteroon, evenings). There is nothing wrong with what they are doing-they are making a living, and I don't begrudge them. As an R&R commercial fisherman, it bothers me to hear the same old rant, that it is the commercial fisherman that is ruining the striped bass fishery. It simply is not true....there is a coast wide quota limit that is set for each state that allows it-the quota hasn't changed in several years....
I think because other fisheries (cod, tautog, fluke, flounder, tunoids) have stringent quotas, or aren't as prevalent as before, that there is a lot of pressure on the bass, because of their abundance.....Back in the bass crash of the late 70's, very few charter boats fished for bass (it was hard work then)...bluefish and tuna got most of the pressure. Anyways, hope my comments add a little food for thought.... |
..Thank you both!...Piemma and jmac.....on another issue........rumore has it in RI..discussed at length to.... if MA bans out of state com fisherman(i.e.RI)--MA menhaden, and other com fisheries would be denied access to that state(RI)...hey, what do I know......been fishing stripers(recreational, several years chartering, guiding, and commercial) for over 45 years.....
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if the bass stocks are in trouble as some say,i am curouis how reducing the numbers caught will increase the numbers of future bass. i do not buy that the more fish thererare the greater the chances of more bass.if conditions are right it doesn't take a huge number of breeders to create a new class of fish.i am no scientist, but have spent a good part of my 54 years working and playing on the water.basically overfishing takes place when a species no longer can reproduce to replenish what is being taken.you want more fish figure out why they aren't reproducing.
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Of course if you have fewer fish then you have fewer fish breeding so you have fewer new fish. Simple equation |
Actually, there is some truth to what he says. It does not take very many fish to have a successful YOY class if conditions are right, and I believe that genetic studies have shown that big YOY classes may be the result of several hundred fish spawning successfully in one small area. Presumably this is what "saved" the fishery back in the early 90's. On the other hand those few hundred fish are typically from the same school and are prone to being wiped out quite easily by intense focused fishing effort.....which is the norm these days when the remaining fish are located. The fewer schools, the less the chance one group hits it big.
His argument also overlooks the toll natural mortality takes on fish. There where loads of small fish everywhere 3 years ago. Coincident with the mycobacteriosis epidemic they seem to have disappeared. If natural mortality goes way up, fishing mortality has to go way down or the number of fish plummets quickly. |
Paul,i guess i don't have a foundation for my argument,but as George mentioned the bass did rebound when the numbers were at all time lows.in my many years of digging clams i have seen areas that were barren of clams,a few chowders here and there ,turn in to some of the most productive areas. look at narraganset bay in the early 80's. the indian river in Florida 83.it didn't take many clams to turn an empty bottom into a bonanza.i also saw how an entire set of clams die when the army corp opened the flood gates on the river.of course the clammers were blamed for raping the river.i guess being an uneducated ,greedy drunken commercial i can't see what is in front of me. i have only been surf fishing 13 years ,i am seeing and catching more fish than ever before. i fish both LI and Cape cod.many of the guys i know who are not internet heroes are also having banner years from delaware to the mass border. sure some of the traditional areas are not producing for some , but a lot of other out of the way areas and not well know are producing.working in a tackle shop i get tired of people complaining how bad fishing is,when if they walked a little they would be on fish big time.just because they aren't were you caught them in the past doesn't mean they are gone.
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a few years ago ct sprayed for mosquitos and a bunch of lobsters died. ct asked uconn (no conflict of interest there!) to investigate preliminary findings were inconclusive. uconn applied for a grant (from ct) for further study study completed, still inconclusive to spraying but found an amoebic parasite that eats lobster nerves, but, only in a weakened state. healthy lobs are not affected. the study , however, just could not come up with what weakened the bugs. how hard did they look????? ya want to get funded next time????? |
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In my opinion (and I should have stated that beforehand) I think that an increase in size and a decrease in bag limit will help the Bass population. But that's just my opinion. Now I tend to agree with you about having a good year last year. I, too, had a great year in the boat and in the Canal in the Fall. However, if you talk to Joe P, John Lee (Goosefish), RIRockhound and Eben, you will hear a dramatically different story. Even Steve Mc Kenna, a true high hook, will tell you that last year was one of their worst years for fish in general, both quality and quantity. So who know what the answer is. One thing is certain: "Time will tell". |
McKenna told me that the last 2 years were worse for him than durring the moratorium years!!!
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People have bad years, i have seen it in the tuna world...
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Steve is an elite Striperman. Written tons of articles. Practically invented the loaded, rigged Sluggo and fishes 120 nights a year from the Block to Cutty to Narragansett and everywhere in between. If last year was as bad as he says, then there is a probelm. |
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That's the very first thing I thought when I read your previous post this morning, Paul As in anything else, consider the source first - and Steve's credentials on the issue are impeccable, IMNSHO It also echos the conversation I had a few nights ago with a well-known inshore charter guide whose opinion I respect Ultimately, that's the beauty of the Interblab on important issues - people are whomever they claim to be and you end up with large chunks of unsubstantiated opinion mixed with the excitement of typing...:doh: In the end it's like the blind men trying to describe an elephant |
Along similar lines is the argument..."The fish are around, you just have to work harder." No S&^%$, really? If you have to work harder to find them, than by default, there ARE less fish.
idiots. :wall: |
I had no idea my innocent little thread on a Professor's presentation would draw so many good thoughts.
Regardless of who agrees or disagrees these forums are good because they foster dialog about something we all share and care about. |
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I have the most respect for Steve, even had the pleasure of fishing with him years ago on Block.... I may be wrong but I dont think he even fished nearly as much these past two years as he has in the past.... How was Narragansett bay late May early June this past year? Many of the coms were doing 50 plus fish a trip, fighting through that many smaller fish to get their legal fish. There were Pogies everywhere as where the Bass. What happened when the netters decimated the Pogies and after al the heavy rain we had. The Pogies disapeared, as did the bass... If I commercially fished where I caught my limits in say 05, 06, 07 in 08 and 09 I would have packed it in and called it quits... Patterns change, sometimes every year, every other year, every two years, every five, every decade, or so on... Point is you can fish the same areas year after year and hope that the fish come to you, but if you want to consistantly catch you gotta go to the fish..... I have to admit, I am not the least sorry for those guys that bitch about the driving or walking... They want the fish in their back yard... Im sorry, but sometime Its called laziness.... Like I really enjoy sleepin in my truck 4, 7, 10, 14, 18 days .. Did it off the surf and do it now, off the boat... How about the bait runs.... Its more work getting bait nowadays vs the fishing! I used to laugh when the guys bitched about how long and a horrible walk Napatree is, Or guys fishing the Back beaches on the cape, But only where they can drive in missing the suicidal bites 1/4, 1/2, 1 mile down the beach... There is hundreds of miles of coastline where you can catch a fish on any given day... Im sorry, I hate it too, but it may require some driving or some walking! We had some of the best years go by us these last few, some would say they were the worst for them... Has block Island ever returned to what it was in the 80's in the late fall, November?? NO...Just talk to Dennis Zambrotta, Al Pelini, and so on ... But the summers have been spectacular... Has the Cape returned to what it was just a decade ago? NO and probably wont for some time... Talk to some of the Best there Like Tony Stetzko... I just talked to him the other day... He knows where the fish are.. OFFSHORE. I would love to go back to the surf on the cape and have the fishing we used to have. We talked about what variables you had then, and what we have now.. Heck what bait did they have in the surf when they had all those big bodies of fish in the 80's... I spoke with DJ Muller a few days ago... He had a great season off the Surf, from NJ to MV... Had a great fall down here off the NJ Coast... We used to enjoy a great fishery here in NJ all summer long, I used to head out any given night and bail fish with rigged eels off Jetty country... Also not a soul in site.... July, Aug, and Sept. Its a thing of the past, has been for about 15 years... Our late falls, November and December were legendary, The tip of the hook produced some monsters, guys from LI would come to the hook... It never came back, in almost 30 years... Funny, you can ask most of the surfrats in NJ if the fishing is in decline and they will look at you as if you are Crazy, just look at whats wieghed in NJ in the Spring, they had the best few springs ever... Ahh.... What about Oregon Inlet, NC, in December, January... Geez, those beach runs to Hatteras were awesome... What happened the last few years??? didnt happen to have anything to do with sub 40 degree surf temps and no bait... Can you imagine, the bodies of bait and fish 30+ Miles OFFSHORE of NC VA?? Who would to think?? Surfcasters can stay on the sand and huff and puff.... Cant change mother nature, no matter what.... The surf runs have been bad in the summer and fall in Rhode island and Mass, but the surf runs have been the best ever here off the NJ coast the last 4 year or so, accounting for some real pigs... was the other way around just 5,6,7,8,9 years ago.... We can debate this all you want... Surf Books had Striped Bass as the 1000 Hour fish... People have gotten spoiled, striped bass has been so commercialized and so many more people are fishing now than before. They expect to catch every time they go out...Some people bitchin, are the ones that did articles on exact spots, commercialized and wrote about their techniques and so on... I gotta tell you, sometimes you have to change more than just where you fish but also how you fish.... seen it from the West Jetty of Moriches, Block, Vineyard, Cutty, Napatree, Watch Hill, I can go on. My local area we had a boom of charter Captains, not that Im an old timer or anything, just that not to long ago anybody good get a boat, charter, and make some $$$... I like a challenge, I want it tough, maybe gets some people off the water..... Everybody seems to want it easy... There are way more surf fishermen, charter captains, boat fisherman tageting striped bass than just 10 years ago.... Guess we need to settle back to reality, we are sharing these fish with way more people.. The Giant Bluefin never returned off the Jersey Coast, whos Bitchin'?? What about the whiting off the surf, the cod??? Im done wasting a single other minute on these boards listening to people crying over how bad the fishing is and where the fish are and blah, blah... Steve mckenna may have had is worst year ever, but many had their best..... Funny how when there is no fish around I, and others I know, could still average 600 plus pounds a commercial day??? I could put clients on my boat and the fish are stacked and they wont get a hit, sometimes the smallest thing could make a difference, and they want get a touch until something is pointed out...point is when its tough not everyone can catch.... The comm guys from the vineyard said that this was the best com season they ever had... What about all the weight that came in from cape cod this year?? The Same Surf Guys were succesfull this year and every year, Why???? This year might not have been as "Easy" as years past and they had to adapt, travel, to be succesfull.... I know there is no fish.... Give up, quit fishing...Its Fishing, not Catching... requires some work and effort... One of the worst things that gets my blood boiling is a miserable, negative attitude - It accounts for zero or minimal success.... Sometimes you cant fight mother nature... How are you going to bring fish up on the beach if there is no bait???? Seems the majority of the people complaining are surfcasters, primarily in Mass and RI, because the fish are not on the beach like they were some years. Everyday cant be like cutty this past June.. Those big bodies of fish need the bait to sustain them.... As far as this armegedon of striped bass, Maybe 12-21-12 the last striped bass will be caught??? There is way to much Gloom and Doom on this board.... I just dont think The McKenna Barometer means the end is near.... PANIC! |
I think it is foolish to deny there are less fish when COASTWIDE the recreational catch number is 1/3 of what it was 2 years ago.
Remember, a large percentage of that recreational number is made up of professional charter catch. Subtract that and you can easily see why us average schmuck recreational fisherman are not particularly happy. Sure if we quit our jobs, ignore our family, trailer a rig hundreds of miles, fish bait guided by electronics and cellphone contacts we could do well.......but that is not why most of us fish, nor what many of us consider fishing. Too bad for us, it appears. |
Too bad indeed
Too bad so many of you are so self impressed and so distrusting of anyone you don't know, or worse yet, understand. Engineers, with no scientific training, calling out professional scientists who have spent countless hours in the field doing research in the hopes of understanding the plight of the striped bass. Sad.
Too bad others here see the solution as simple as taking up new arms or moving to greener pastures to continue killing once the fish are no longer able to be killed in historically lucrative waters. Pathetic. Too bad folks post on here hoping to enlighten others to possible factors affecting the fish we all love, only to have their well intentioned act turned into a bitchandblame fest amongst fools. Shameful. Until every single striper catcher accepts that they own a share in the issue there will be no hope for recovery of the bass. But fear not, the government will step in and shut down fishing, and lock us all out, in order to save the species. Let's hope it doesn't become a permanent lock out. I'd like to go surfcasting for stripers with my grandchildren in 20 years. |
,,,,,,,,,no hard poundage cap on recs................and..Pew style foundations monies will solve the problem.....for all of us + the fish......."yes my son, when I was your age we fished here-now a MPA-several years back the recs & com stired up such a high level of controversy-the foundation monies lobbied the closure under the guise of conservation"...........@#$%^&*()+#$% it! I'm go'n fish'n..........stealth :)......
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seems to me to be a STOCK issue
are we or are we not
confusing the spawns?? as i understand it~~~ the majority of the MA, RI migratory feesh come from the Hudson River stock, no?? so how would rain, pollution, in CHSPKE Bay affect our spawn/YOY index? positively or negatively? additionally, could these be the racers that get mixed in with the run of COWS these past coupla yrs in shore and that have been gettin' hammered off shore? also, as i understand it~~~ the mycobact. problems, while not exclusive to the OBX, is it not the most prevalent there? hence, the lack of flesh-pocked stripers that i've YET to sea in only 4 years. from what i've read~~~ we must be more concerned about the non-consumption of many of our stripers, since the Hudson River is loaded w/ PCB's and pharmaceuticals?? lastly~~~ while last year was SLOW and WHACKY for me, personally, others i've talked with and know did well, right around the cove, up the river, or two beaches down from me ALL season!! also, i ran into Schoolies and cookie cutter nights that ranged from 16"- 32" and many sizes in between. the only thing i did miss, at my usual known producers was the BIG GURLS. and there was a serious lack of BAIT! so what can i glean from all of this? gonna bang the surf HARD again in 2010, like it was my job. i will still fish the tournies i always fish. i will hopefully get to put my nephews and daughter on some decent fish at some point this summer. i will endeavor to fish with more of YOU momma jahmoaks!!! WHY? because this is the most effin' FUN and CHALLENGE i can find that's legit and gets me outta tha house, and youse guys are pretty cool to hang out with once you step away from the keyboards and wet a line to chase our beloved prey. FISH AWWWN, soon enough gents,,,,,,,,,,,,FISH AWN! |
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To carry it one step further, if the gene pool has become smaller (less diverse) due to the number of fish in a school that hits it big, is the resulting YOY class more prone to disease and abnormalities? In other words, is the result weakened immune systems made worse by a lack of forage or a genetic predisposition toward certain diseases like microbacteriosis? I'll be the first to admit that I may be stepping into water over my head and deep enough to make my hat float on issues involving dominant/recessive genes, but I do know a good bit about dog breeding and the inadvisability of dating one's sister or cousins Or maybe it's still just a case of 'all of the above' in regards to breeding, forage, fishing pressure on the stock and the state of the marine environment in which they live I think I'll have to brew another cup of starter fluid to see if this becomes any clearer...:yawn: |
I am giving myself a popsicle headache going through a bunch of Menhaden research papers.
So many variables, the data is all over the place, some common, some not. You can find whatever you are looking for. I am blinded by science. |
a qoute from a freinds brother''Years ago there were plenty of fish and and no fish scientist,now there are plenty of fish scientist and no fish.''
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JUST MY 2CENTS
As i understand it bass spawning requires the proper PH in the brackish waters of a river. If the water moves to fast the eggs move into saline to soon and die. The Hudson river with its limestone cliffs has helped the stripers in this system in spite of the chemicals I also feel the menhaden and herring problem need to be addressed and now that licence money is involved,we as club members will have more clout than commercial interests,be they menhaden or sea herring netters and i hope we can turn things around for the betterment of stripers |
Menhaden has a huge impact especially since it is a filter for the ocean. Typically Menhaden and oysters would take care of the algae blooms but since we've also taken all the oysters the only thing left is Menhaden. Wonder how all those oysters dis-appeared? Oh yeah they were in demand by clients of the commercial guys. Good excuse to eliminate them. Here's an interesting article on Menhaden
The article below was written in 2007. And folks it's only become a bigger issue over the last 3 years. Here's the article; Thursday, August 23, 2007 PRAY FOR THE PREY: GRN STAFF SUMMER BOOK REVIEW THE MOST IMPORTANT FISH IN THE SEA BY H. BRUCE FRANKLIN The Gulf of Mexico as a region is frequently forced to deal with ecological catastrophes from which the rest of the country can learn. Cases in point would be Louisiana’s staggering coastal land loss, and the dead zone created by nutrient pollution from the Mississippi River. These massive problems point researchers to the lessons of excess nitrogen and phosphorus in marine ecosystems, and the important roles that natural sediment and fresh/saltwater regimes play in maintaining estuarine wetlands. It’s a less frequent occurrence when those who manage our natural resources can look to other parts of the country and learn from their mistakes. In H. Bruce Franklin’s “The Most Important Fish in the Sea,” that’s exactly the opportunity that is presented, in the form of an exhaustive chronicle of a modest fish. Following the boom-bust economic/ecological history of menhaden (or alewives, or moss-bunkers, or in the Gulf the fish known as pogies) up and down the Atlantic Coast, this book underscores again and again the role the fish play in a functioning ecosystem: as forage for predatory fish, birds, marine mammals and sharks; and as filter feeders, challenging even oysters in their ability to clean waters of excess nutrients and algae. That ecological role is underscored in the face of seemingly thoughtless commercial exploitation, first for fertilizer, then for oil, finally for a mix of feed for farm animals and aquaculture, oil for health supplements and some pet foods. As the industry fished this species again and again to regional population collapses, driven by an ever-more efficient fleet of airplane-guided purse seines, people finally began to catch on to the impact. Few would complain about the absence of menhaden, as it’s a fish no one eats, but the absence of menhaden began to have impacts to other strands in the food web once anchored by this oily fish, and as striped bass began to show signs of stress due to lack of their primary forage, recreational fishermen in the Atlantic grew concerned. As this concern fueled political opposition to the fishery, states began to close their waters to this near-monopoly, and the industry turned toward the Gulf. Now the second largest fishery by weight in the U.S., most menhaden are caught in Gulf waters. More precisely, due to net bans in Florida and Alabama, most menhaden are caught in Mississippi, Louisiana, and some Texas waters. With a processing plant in Empire, LA, Daybrook Fisheries is the smaller force in the industry, dwarfed by Omega Protein which owns processing plants in Moss Point, MS and Abbeville, and Cameron, LA. Despite the size of the harvest, and the efficiency of the fleet, there currently exist no annual catch limits for the Gulf menhaden fishery. Within the industry’s self appointed summer season, they catch what they can find. Of course some of what they find within a menhaden school aren’t solely the prey, but sometimes the predator. In the very little amount of information the industry has ever allowed off the deck of a menhaden boat, researchers have reported shark bycatch as high as 148 blacktip and spinner sharks caught in a single purse seine set. In addition to sharks, fishermen have reported the disappearance of dolphins for weeks at a time after the menhaden fleet visits their waters. In our region it’s not striped bass that recreational fisherman would be watching closely, but our popular spotted seatrout (specks) and red drum (redfish) both eat menhaden, which is why it is such an effective bait. As much as 95% of the spring redfish diet can consist of menhaden. While our Gulf ecosystem struggles with vanishing wetlands and a seemingly endless dead zone, we may be wise to pay close attention to the troubling tale of menhaden over exploitation on the Atlantic Coast that Mr. Franklin’s book shares with us, and look at the role that menhaden play in those larger, more immediate concerns. What will happen to the estuarine-dependent menhaden schools as the coastal wetlands dissolve, and how can a robust, historic population of menhaden help mitigate the algae driven dead zone? While we don’t know the answer to these questions, it seems highly reasonable to being asking them more forcefully. Delete Post |
Here's another article and take close note that the Menhaden industry is regulated General Assembly ( politicians ). Every other species in Virginia is regulated by the Virginia Marine Resource Commission. Wonder why that is? I'll tell you why...$$$. Seems liike Omega Protein is a big contributor to some of the politicians there. Omega also spent something like $70,000 last year to lobbyists on their behalf. Take a look;
This was taken off another site; Menhaden - an oily, bony baitfish - attracts more than stripers and bluefish. It attracts Virginia lawmakers by the score. Omega Protein, which harvests menhaden for industrial purposes and processes them in Reedville, has carved out the privileged status of having its fishery in the Chesapeake Bay regulated by politicians to whom it gives thousands of dollars in donations each year. The commercial exploitation of creatures in state waters is ordinarily controlled by the Virginia Marine Resource Commission. The VMRC regulates oysters, blue crabs, striped bass, bluefish, speckled trout and much, much more. What it doesn't regulate - by law - is menhaden, one of the largest commercial catches in Virginia waters. Instead, the fishery is the only one overseen by the General Assembly, where marine scientists are in short supply. That's a problem. Menhaden are voracious filter feeders and once were common as pebbles in the Chesapeake Bay. They cleaned the Bay's waters and fed all kinds of bigger fish. Menhaden are considered so critical to the ecosystem of the East Coast and the food chain that author Bruce Franklin titled his book, "The Most Important Fish in the Sea." Allowing the company that profits from the fish, and its lawmakers, to decide how many Omega should catch is the equivalent of letting foxes decide how many chickens to keep in the henhouse. Still, the General Assembly has refused to cede oversight of menhaden to VMRC. Omega is now subject to a compromise between state and federal regulators that allows the company to take 100,000 metric tons of menhaden a year in the Chesapeake. The company has come nowhere near that cap, a fact that environmentalists cite as proof of overfishing and company officials cite as proof of caution. Most likely it's proof that the company - the only one working in Virginia - is catching all the menhaden it needs in state waters outside the Bay. According to the National Marine Fisheries Service, 160,357 metric tons of menhaden were landed in Virginia in 2008, most from state waters. Virginia and North Carolina are the only East Coast states that permit industrial menhaden fishing. What isn't clear is whether the species can survive this onslaught. The Bay continues to be plagued by dead zones caused by too much of the algae the creatures can eat; there are signs the fish that prey on menhaden are suffering because their food supplies are dwindling. Such uncertainty can be traced back to a faulty regime in which lawmakers were asked to regulate a complicated fishery in a complex ecosystem that even experts don't fully understand. Instead of the VMRC, which is supported by the best science and data available and meets every month, menhaden are regulated by lawmakers who meet on a tight two-month calendar and have a million other things to worry about. Given the thousands of dollars Omega has distributed in Richmond over the years, that's perhaps no surprise. But it is wrong, it is dangerous for the Bay, and it should change. Sen. Ralph Northam and Del. John Cosgrove have introduced legislation that would properly put menhaden regulation under the VMRC, where it would be governed by science and what's best for the Chesapeake and the fishery. The legislation is likely to face tough opposition in the House of Delegates, where Omega has been especially generous. As before, their proposals to protect menhaden and the Bay will test the extent to which money serves as bait for lawmakers in Richmond. |
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guess who else is in bed with Omega?
none other than the Bush Dynasty!!!
if i'm not mistaken, their world hq's and processing plant is in Houston~~ go figure!! figure on BIG $$$$$ for both shylocks!! :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: |
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