The commercial percentage is not going up because they are catching more fish, it is going up because the recreational fishermen are catching (and never were) nowhere near the numbers they are being estimated to catch (this is discussed in detail in the expanded section on the flaw in the MRFSS sampling methodology).

The percentage of commercial caught bass does not change...it stays at over 50%......relative to the entire coastwide catch, because the coastwide recreational catch is made up of Recreational (MRFSS measured charter survey + MRFSS estimated non-charter catch) and only the later number is wildly off (70% overestimate x millions of fisherman leads to a huge total overestimate). The accurate charter estimates undoubtably make up a large percentage of the actual 40 % of fish the recreational sector uses.

The number is not of great concern to the ASMFC.....indeed it is comforting to them since it means total fishing pressure is not as high as they assumed.....which translates into there supposedly being more fish that can safely be caught......hence the vote to consider increasing commercial quotas further.

Now this might make sense if the actual numbers of fish were what they like to estimate, but if there are that many fish why are recreational catch NUMBERS (not poundage) plummeting so fast? Maybe the survey is so flawed it can't be trusted....or maybe there are not as many fish as they estimate and the dimishing success of the millions of average anglers coastwide reflects that.

So where do you think this is headed as the millions of average anglers begin to recognize that they are "getting" maybe 20% of the overall quota (commercial 55% per the technical comittee report/Charter say 25%) and that number is dropping fast?

At very least they ought to redraw that annoying graph and pie chart to show what is really happening and people stop using it to support a position it does not support.

I'll say it agian... I do not know of a single charter boat running six packs that reports their catch of striped bass as they were never required to, with the exception of NY and those numbers are whatever they say they are. who is wieghing those fish in and tallying the weight??? Same Crap like the NJ Bonus Tag Program, the less you report, the less headaches and the more fish you can kill right??? Wonder if the boats in va and nc are????? Charter boats kill the most bass, no question....

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

From some of the research I've done, more and more evidence is popping up that the charters are killing a significant portion of bass.

If there are charter captains that think it's wrong how many bass are killed by the charter industry, they should take the dollar signs off of striped bass and stop chartering and commercial fishing.

Hmmmmm. . . . Follow the money.
Millions of angry recs may be starting to get a voice soon.
Storms a brewing.

......multiple use of a shared resource is the only equatable way...striped bass are a multi-use fish..........food is honorable........rec is honorable(even though respected Oceanographer Jacques Cousteau stated fish resources should be used for food...not for fun).........Cow Hunter is correct as the rec/charter group is putting a big dent is striper biomass coastwide.....

Not everybody can afford to fish for fun, nor would they, some of us make a living on the water... My point is, I don't know personally of a single charter boat captain that would have a problem to 1 fish per angler... So we have to stop fishing for money because the charter regs are to lax???? Make the Same money if its 1 fish per angler or 2 fish per angler with half the mortality... Am I the Only one that sees this???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Curious. . . what % of Charter boat are also commercial fishing boats ?
I have no idea,
Just throwing it out there.

I believe the real number of killed bass on charter boats is rather staggering, it's way above what is estimated, but then I'm no scientist... Trapperpierre us probably one of the most knowledgeable fisherman on here, he's been pointing out the charter boat impact for years... I know the guy loves striped bass more than many, I can bet that he's got more 60 and 50lbers on this board than anyone on this board...
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

some boats are strictly charter...some are strickly commercial ...some of the boats(not all) ..some days they sail as charters...some days they sail as commercial.........hard cap documented data landings from commercial...undocumented large catches from rec/charter...............the commercial catches are fully documented..........the huge catches of bass that are from the rec/charter group are not fully recorded.....when these figures are obtained???we will have proof of the massive rec/charter catches of our beloved striped bass...........numbers? all comercial striper anglers are registered by state......also, charter boats have lists again by each state they fish from/in............check state data bases..

Sorry, I just can't see how anyone on here can believe these fish are near extinction??? What cause people can't catch 40-50 bass a trip every single day??? I mean there are days it's no problem but really... Every single day??? I should of never bought that new boat knowing the end was near and I should stop fishing for hire or money so there could be more easy to catch striped bass in the ocean! Get rid of the illegal poaching in Va an Nc that is so obvious. You can't compare that to sw ledge or the sub bouy, millions of pounds are poached where the fish are supposed to be protected. A closed area!! Why go after the guys that fish legit???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I still don't believe that 55% commercial figure....just as you don't believe what I'm saying...as someone else mentioned in this thread, it can all be massaged to what our indivudual bias is.

I will reiterate, the coastwide commercial quota is mostly coming from the net fishery in the Chesapeake -check the quota numbers out here-

http://www.asmfc.org/speciesDocument...BassRegs08.pdf

6,432,727 lbs comes from DE,MD,PRFC,VI,NC, NY (mostly net fishery)

239,299 lbs from RI (145, 972 from R&R, the rest from the trap fishery)
1,107,485 lbs MA, hook & line

.........so now, according to what you have stated, 55 % of the striped bass mortality is coming from the commercial fishery-
7,779,511 lbs....so that means 3,500,780 lbs of fish are being killed by recreational (including charter/headboat) fisherman up and down the east coast? By "millions" of average anglers?? I think its alot more than that.....

Most of the guys were not fishing in 81.

You guys will see. Nothing but Bluefish for 3 or 4 years. A schoolie will make the sports page and a 30# fish will be a thing of the past.

I lived through it once. I will quit this time and just golf. Two moritoriums in one lifetime is too much.

Probably a small single digit figure if your going down the entire striper coast.. Don't understand what difference that makes, com quota is a com quota... I only know of a few guides that com fish in mass and ri..
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I was there too, in fact, in the years leading up to then (started fishin in 72)...same area as you, and I did not see those dire conditions. In fact, Block Island was quite good those years (as was Valiant)...I caught some of my biggest fish then. Narragansett Bay wasn't very good, but that's another story. No way is the present fishery anywhere near as bad as that (remember, there were no regs back then...except min length of 16"...I believe the moratorium was in the mid-80's) even along the coast, you still got fish...any night, I could plug (pichney dannies) the middle wall and get 8-10 middle size fish....also there was fish in all the outside spots (Pigs, Vineyard, Elizabethans, Race) in late 70's early 80's...it just took hard work...
...and I did continue to fish (and release) during the moratorium...because I love to fish...
By the way, these days I still fish hard and play golf too..........and I'll be 62 in July

I suppose in a perfect world.
The com kill is documented.
The charter kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do for an honest man)
The rec kill SHOULD be documented. (easy to do if you care )
Then you would have just the facts, mam.
And all this ridiculous finger pointing would go away.

Well, the new saltwater fishing license requirement certainly sets the stage for the documentation you're calling for.

The truth is out there !

You can't handle the truth!

Not many can ,Paul.
So if I win the Panama trip wanna go ?

I don't know about most of the states you listed but NY is about 50%-50% between R&R and Gillnets.

Let's at least find the truth whatever it may be.......then worry about how to handle it!

Next year you should get your wish.At 'east from a statistical point of view. Right now they have a very good estimate of what the charter/party boats kill via the NMFS charter/party survey. Last year I think I was surveyed every month from May till oct.

Yeah Im sure it does... To register for NY as a charter Captain its up to $650! You think everybody will report honestly as to what they catch? Same like the NJ... People Will Not. Your not wieghing the fish in by a 3rd party, the numbers are whatever you feel like them being... Where is the $$$ Going? Im sure its to help the fishery right? Or to enforce violations like the local police are doing in a recession to raise more money??? Heck, My brother just got a letter from the State of NJ, he cashed out a small percentage of his 401k, went through an accountant, paid taxes... Last week he recieved a letter from the state that he didnt pay enough, owes $500 plus $1000 in late fees and interest. Says Statute of limitations does not apply even though its 5 years... Government needs more money is all... By any means, we fish, so We all Must be Loaded!!! Dont kid are selves that this saltwater license thing is a good thing, just another TAX! You should see the amount of people the IRS is Recruiting at the colleges! sorry to get off topic.... Somewhat...

That survey had lots of correction factors. Who knows what is real anymore.
I am talking about an unattainable Perfect scenario here.

Please, jmac, it is not what I stated. It is what the ASMFC technical committee stated in the link you provided. Whether it is right or not, I can't say. I'll bet a plug, however, the ASMFC choses to ignore the technical committee's report on this issue and decides not to adjust their estimated recreational catch statistics downward by 70%. Any takers?

Your referring to the telephone survey as currently randomly conducted?

Perfection is a far off dream in a single person's eyes (your perfect is not/may not be the same as my perfect) but there are methods of getting closer than what is practiced today for taking surveys. How much money you got to spend?

No survey.
Say you go to the canal and catch 4 fish.
You decide to keep the bleeder. You report one fish killed, thats all.
You either call it in to an automated service. ( press one for one fish two for two etc ). No weight or length, just a number of fish kept.
Or e-mail it at your convenience.
Simple, done once at the end of the year, just an easy way to get better data.

I agree...was joking.

For sure I'm in, especially since you blew me off on Costa Rica! :drool:

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

I'll make it up to you with a trip to Kona.

a bit beyond ASMFC.......tooo much leisure time.....tooo much $$$....tooo many Xperts....tooo much information-cell phones, websites, magazines, books, lectures/seminars...(oh yea, been to Costa Rica & Kona a number of times-many other exotic fishing locales...great fishing...understatement)...........hey try this..get a 10-gallon style cowboy hat...everyone in 30 words or less create a SB management plan...drop our slips into the hat..........shake stir........pull one out......this should settle the matter............:)

I don't need 30 words.

Recreational: One at 36"
Enforce EEZ
Crack down on poaching

10 words.
would make a huge difference.

:cheers:

How about 6 words:

Enforce EEZ
Stop Poaching
Stop Bycatch

My 30
 

Limit entry to MA commercial fishery. 6

Utilize a tag system to reduce MA black market. 9

Use GPS monitoring to keep comms out of MA EEZ. 10

5 words left....

Boycott Virginia and North Carolina !! :realmad:

see embedded comments, removed MA since all striper populations are inter-related.

Is a "all or nothing" fight winnable? Even necessary?
 

Can't common ground be found so that recs and commercials can fight together against the true villains in this striper war?

I see it unlikely that an all or nothing bill will get passed, so why not work WITH the commercials in MA to create a better situation for everyone in MA - all the while working on the truly dire issues our bass face?

Collaboration in MA-
Cut out the 'recreational commercials' by limiting entry to the FEW who do rely on bass for a significant portion of their income. Mr. Diodati's notion that an almost free and open fishery is good for his entire state in times of GPS, fishfinders, live wells, radar, etc. is shear folly. A 'historic' fishery can be maintained, all be it in such a manner that the resource isn't raped by the general public.

Implement a tag/record keeping system that makes it much harder for a black market to exist. Allocate funds to enforce poaching regs.

Use GPS to monitor the few commecials deemed to worthy of the privilege of fishing for and selling bass.

Reduce the quota for the fishery to reflect the exit of the recreational commercials. Do not allocate the remaining quota to any other user group.


MidAtlantic/Coastwide Crisis-
The recreational/charter kill must be reduced and structured to protect the prime brood stock females.

Indiscriminate commercial/poacher netting must be addressed to protect the prime brood stock females.

NMFS and the Coast Guard must step up enforcement of the rampant EEZ poaching that is decimating the prime brood stock females.

Prespawn and spawning grounds in both the Chesapeake and Hudson must be off limits to all forms of fishing in the months leading up to the spawning run.

Omega Protein must not be allowed to strip mine the menhaden stocks of the MidAtlantic region.

Commercial agriculture operations within the Chesapeake watershed must be forced to treat their animals' waste to the same standards as human waste so it does not lead to algae blooms and subsequent hypoxia in Chesapeake Bay. .

Farmers upstream of the Chesapeake must be controlled in the way they use fertilizers that lead to algae blooms and subsequent hypoxia in Chesapeake Bay.
-------------------------

Would there not be enough fish for a limited and tightly controlled rod and reel fishery to exist for families that have historically fished bass in MA IF recs and commercials fought side by side to defeat the true enemies of the striped bass?

Just some thoughts on how to win the war by avoiding a costly battle.

Woody,
I agree we all need to fight together not against eachother...but remember in this fishery the comms have never attacked the rec sector because a lot of the guys do both...it is always groups like SF trying to shutdown the comm fishery and then the yelling insues...I believe that if SF pooled its resource and fought the major problem like bait and poor ecological conditions they would be welcomed more on both sides, but they don't they just seem to attack one group and it causes fights amongst everyone.

I have said it before like the rest of you...fix the bait...fix the problem...secondly SF is a Maine based group trying to pull political weight in another state, that is not right, I don't care if they think the fish swims everywhere so they have a right to fight in any congressional setting. Could you imagine me going to Maine and trying to stop Maine lobstering through the Maine legistlature because my lobstering in mass had slowed down???? Think about it? I would be killed! Or if I wanted to change the gauge size in Me because I couldn't get enough Keepers in Ma....

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:)

"Cut out the 'recreational commercials' by limiting entry to the FEW who do rely on bass for a significant portion of their income"

This is my "favorite". I asked this before when one of the "anti commercial fisherman" crowd posted a similar line of "logic" and got no answer.....So WoodyCT...I'll ask you this time since you brought it up. How many fish in a million lb. quota if it's caught by 100 guys as opposed to 1,000 guys? Open book...and you're allowed to get the other "select few" who deem themselves worthy of making economic decisions for everyone else to help. :gh: