Pogies..........
 

Started live lining pogies '69-'70....with the likes of Jim Paterson, the Sevigny Brothers, Tom bartolomeo and George Simes...."other" refined utilization of whole pogies came shortly thereafter with the Jack Gouda era..............................what happens when local bait boats remove the existing pogies the spring early summer bay bass fishery suffers-plain and simple....no rocket science needed........................the huge Omega onslaught of Chessy region menhaden....is a major blunder......also........and the "Tiny Tim" huge purse seine of yester year killed the bay bass fishery in one or two net sets.....repeat-localize removal of bay/river pogies has a negative effect on the striped bass fishery......

TP

RICH /YA LEFT OUT QUITE A FEW OLD TIMERS ;;

DO YOU REMEMBER WACKY ROLAND TO NAME JUST ONE


&& THEN JM [not Joe] RJ / DF/ EJ/ TW/TD/

:buds:

& then the 3rd wave & finally the flood gates :wall:

No one is saying they are the problem in the BIG PICTURE.....that problems stems from the fishery down South. But when there are close to 4 million pounds (RIDEM stats) of menhaden the begining of the week, and then 2 boats work for 4 days, and then by the end of the week Bay fishermen are having problems finding bait, while one boat sits all morning at the Hurricane Barrier seining every school coming out of the Upper River with the tide....then I say, yes, there is a problem.

The heigthened pogie controversy this year really started 2 years ago....with the addition of another seiner (from Gloucester); for years the Fall River boat has worked together with the RI fishing community (not without some give and take); I don't believe he really needed to fill his boat every day. But with competition came the fear that one or the other were going to end up on the short end of the stick; so they seem to be racing each other to make sure they get their share....and damn anybody that get's in their way.....simple econonmics. And RIDEM, in their infinite wisdom, sits by trying to institute a plan that just can't work in an expeditionary fashion..because they are not on the water like the fishermen who see the dwindling stocks every day.
And with the removal of the bait, so go the bass/blues....I've seen it since 1974 in the Bay....it is such a basic, simple relationship.
In NJ, since the menhaden fishery was banned in the inshore Bays (I believe menhaden seining is not allowed within 3 miles of the coast line), their inshore bas/blue fishery is the best it's been in years...Cowhunter (from NJ) can attest to this.
So yes, the Bay menhaden seining is the problem...it's a"rite of passage" every spring ...

Clammer-
can't forget Gary...who made us all laugh with his wacky behavior...cracccccccccck.....there goes another rod.................

live line,,,,,whole.....chunk.....
 

.......Don Gladou, Ray Jobin, Tommy Ditmar, Johnny Martini, even Bill Mancini...among others.............and........pogies should be multiple use species........keep the bait boats.....however....develope a bay sanctuary......no seining above a line from Poppaquash to Prov Point on Prudence Island to Warwick Light to Sandy Point Warwick(Green River)....just eliminate the localize elimination of menhaden in the upper bay and Prov River.........just give the !@#$%^&*()+ pogies a break!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is getting deeper already.I'm asking a few NJ guys on another forum for some more info.I think basically it's coming down to the boats are exploiting the rules and the areas.The share we are giving them is not being watched carefully enough and they are overfishing.From what I'm reading they are already taking more than they should this year but how does anyone really know until it's too late.Like last year.If it fails again this year we will really need to push for a new plan.Not just sit back and watch them rape the bay again.:wall:

....such a simple solution that we have been suggesting since the 70's......then no more quotas, biomass speculation, "caps", "floors", other "voodoo" fisheries science...and most importantly, a little protection for the Upper Bay....and maybe a dissapearance of seiner/fishermen confrontations....

Mass has a bunch of closed areas look at their page..

good morning fisherman ;;

TP

think about it .you named 5 guys & 3 are actually dead .......................... get ready its coming ><><><>:soon:

Are they fishing where they are allowed to fish? If not make a formal complaint giving your name and number. If t hey are allowqed to fish where they are, not much anyone can do until fall.

JMAC

I didn,t forget him .........yeah there were laughs ............ but he,d probably be dead by now .. with his track record ;; of IOU,s & Screw you .........
You had to see him when he dug / I think he either threw overboard or smashed more than he made :jump1::jump1:

Clammer

New flares??????

If you fish out of Bolds Point,obey the no wake zone,EP harbor master giving out tickets like candy,to a tune of 150.00,now that will make your day.

You are 100% correct. Here in NY it is the Marine Resource Advisory Council. They hold monthly meetings and are the DEC's eyes and ears on regulations.

I won't lie saying the meetings are not boring as hell because some are. Some are interesting though and there is a lot to be learned by going to these things.

I make them when I can, especially if something important is coming up, but they have them at 2 pm on Tuesdays. Not very job friendly, unless you are a comm guy. These meetings are filled with them and sometimes I am the only rec in the house. Not cool at all.

Each meeting, and I am sure it is the same with your DEM meetings, has a public comment period. They are very important and the board can sometimes base their decision due to these comments.

Get to these meetings, get up and say something and you will be doing your part to fix what is broken.

Pine box enscribed
 

..,,Clamma,,,,,,,,,pine box with bas-relief carved pogies being chased by open mouth corker striper.....with a pen/ink scene of a seine boat in the far distance down by the Homestead............:rotf2::fishin:..taking orders now

DENIS:

I went the next day .flares accomplished // looked all over wacky world for something to carry/protect my log book from the weather / water ;
Havn,t found anything yet ;:confused:

no pogies, no herring make Homer go crazy..... :smash::smash::smash::smash::smash:

This is what I got from Jersey guys.This is copied from their regulations.Seems the .6 nautical mile from shore is what makes it work.If we could implement the same type of rule into the existing set we have already it may even the playing field a bit more and keep the bait boats off the exploit areas.They still would be allowed to get bait in the bay.Just not set up at the pinch points.Have we tried to implement this in the past and failed.If so what was the theory.I would think that keeping them a safe distance from piers,docks,and local traffic would equal to safety and that being a high priority for DEM it really should be a no brainer.



SHIRRED OR PURSE SEINES FOR MENHADEN FOR BAIT
SEASON: January 1 to December 31.
AREA: Atlantic Ocean - between 0.6 and 3 nautical miles from shore, jetties or piers; Raritan Bay and Sandy Hook Bay - not closer than 0.6
nautical miles from shore, jetties or piers; Delaware Bay - that portion of Delaware Bay south and east of LORAN C line 42850 not closer than 0.6
nautical miles from shore, jetties or piers.
GEAR: Purse or shirred net.
SPECIAL RESTRICTION: Applicants must apply for a bait permit between January 1 and March 1 in every calendar year. No applications shall
be accepted after March 1 in any calendar year. Maximum length of vessel is 90 feet. Maximum length of net is 150 fathoms (900 feet). Removal
of fish from purse seine shall be by brailing or dip netting only. Fish pumps are prohibited aboard harvest vessels permitted to purse seine menhaden
for bait. All fishing and related activities may not occur any closer to the shore, jetties or piers than 0.6 nautical miles in the Atlantic Ocean,
Delaware Bay and Raritan and Sandy Hook bays. No fishing permitted between sunset and sunrise. No fishing permitted on Saturdays, Sundays or
any holiday officially observed by the State of New Jersey (New Year's Day, Martin Luther King's Birthday, Lincoln's Birthday, Washington's
11
Birthday, Good Friday, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Columbus Day, Election Day, Veteran's Day, Thanksgiving Day, and
Christmas Day). No stakes, markers, buoys, crab pots, lobster pots, fish pots, or staked shellfish grounds shall be disturbed by the act of fishing.
Possession of any fish other than menhaden is prohibited.
Any vessel engaged in fishing for Atlantic menhaden for bait must obtain a bait permit and shall display, on both sides of the vessel amidships, a
yellow capital letter "B" not less than five feet in height on a black square background not less that six feet on a side, or as otherwise specified in the
regulation. In all cases, however, each side of the black background shall be no less that three-quarters of the height of the gunwale at amidships
from the waterline.
A permit suspension/revocation schedule exists for violation of authorized fishing areas. Any vessel operating under this permit is required to
notify the Division’s Marine Enforcement Unit (609-748-2050) on a daily basis of the identity of the vessel, the intended fishing locations of the
vessel or any change in intended fishing location prior to the onset of fishing activity. All persons licensed to take Atlantic menhaden for bait
purposes only shall keep and submit accurate records of the amount and location of Atlantic menhaden harvested.
FEE: Based upon gross tonnage - range $20-$700.

These are the areas permanently closed currently.Anyone have a map outlining these places to make viewing easier.This would be the only section we would need to get changed to fit goals we are looking to accomplish.If we keep the current system in effect using the "floor" that DEM has established and the 50% rule.Plus add a new rule to keep them out of the upper reaches it could work for both sides of the game.They would still be able to net bait.We would still see gamefish and be able to benefit from the bait also.Anyone know of any RI shops that get fresh pogy's from any of the bait boats ? I read somewhere that ARK bait was in good with some bait shops.




16.2.6 Permanent Closures -- The following areas are permanently closed to purse seining for menhaden:
Providence River
- In the Providence River, all waters north of a line along the hurricane barrier.
- All waters east of the east line of the Providence River navigation channel, south to the northwest corner of the Getty fuel dock on the East Providence shore in the Boyden Heights area.
- On a line from Pomham Rocks to Sabin Pt. and then along a line to BP thence along a line from BP to the tower at Nayatt Point.
- On the west side of Providence River, all of Pawtuxet Cove and all waters inside the dike.
- All waters in the Fields Point area north of a line running from Arnold Ave. on the West Shore to C"39" on the east thence running north to the easternmost extreme tip of Fields Point.
Greenwich Bay
- All waters in Greenwich Bay west of a line from the flag pole on Warwick Point to Sandy Point.
- All waters of Potowomut River west of a line from Marsh Point to Pojac Pt.
West Bay Area:
- All waters of Allen Harbor west of a line running north and south from the easternmost point of land forming Allen Cove.
- All waters west of a line drawn between the towers marking the entrance to Wickford Harbor.
East Bay Area:
- All waters of the Warren River, Barrington River and Palmer River, north of a line running from Rumstick Point through N"2" to the seaward end of Gibson Road at Bristol Highlands.
- All waters of Bristol Harbor north of a line from the end of Johnston Estate Road through R"6" to the Bristol shore on the east at approximately the seaward end of Franklin Street.
- All waters of the Kickemuit River north of a line running from N"6" through N"4" to the shore at the end of Narrows Road in Bristol.
- In the Sakonnet River all waters bounded on the north by the Swing Bridge and on the south by "Stone Bridge" including the waters of Spectacle Cove.
RI Marine Fisheries Statutes and Regulations
Part XVI -- Menhaden Regulations
Page 7 of 8
- All the waters of Nannaquaket Pond south of the bridge to Nannaquaket Neck.
Southern Bay Area:
- All waters of Dutch Harbor south and east of a line from the westernmost end of Orchard Road on Conanicut Island to the Quay on the northeastern shore of
Dutch Island. Thence along the eastern shore to Dutch Island Light then easterly to N"2" and then to the most northerly tip of Beaverhead Dock.
- The waters in the area of "Melville" south of a line running from the end of the breakwater to the easternmost point of Dyer Island and thence to Carr Point.
- In Newport Harbor, south and east of a line from the western end of the breakwater in Coasters Harbor south to the southeastern tip of Rose Island thence southerly to C"1" thence east to G"3" to the northern tip of Goat Island, thence south along the east shore of Goat Island to the southern tip of Goat Island and then west to the northernmost tip of Fort Adams.

I also believe there is a closed season (before July 15) in the West Passage (Wickford, High Banks, Potters Cove, etc); there was talk about giving up East Greenwich Bay (ever since the change that made it off limits, no pogies seem to go there anymore...almost like fate intervened..bad fate), as a tradeoff to get the upper Bay closed (Conimicut Pt. North), but Arc Bait/ Advisory Panel/RIDEM would not go along with it....this area makes the season for the seiners. Beleive me, the bait seiners don't want to go up there if they don't have to (fishing boats, confrontations/tanker traffic, fuel costs, etc) but that's where the bait is driven (warmer water, more nutrients, by gamefish-natural fish trap); it would be much easier for them to stay near port (Upper Mt. Hope Bay).

It is an interesting situation the way New York handles it; no seining in LI Sound/Jamaica Bay/NY Harbor. The tackle shops get all their bait from individual commercial cast netters; there probaly is about 75 guys doin' it for a living. They supply the shops with fresh, nice bait, make a nice, little living...and no adverse effect on the menhaden biomass...everybody's happy...and believe me there is oodles and oodles of pogies there (been there, done that).

What I'm thinking is we'll get some pictures of these boats in places they really don't belong.Try to catch them off guard just enough in the areas we don't want them to exploit and explain they don't belong there.Considering they have the right of way and set up in some rather tight spot may be enough to make a case for some of the spots along the Prov River.Outside the barrier.Anyone fish there regularly enough to get pictures of them midset ? I've never stepped foot in a RI shop that claimed they got the fresh ones in the cooler from ARK bait.So I can say I've never benefited from the bait boats.NY sounds like they got it made.If all we had were cast netters that were supplying the local shops we'd have plenty enough to go around.Who supplies the NY lobster fleet with bait ?The same netters or do they go elsewhere ?

Lobster fishermen have traditionally used herring; herring quotas took a deep hit this year (45%??)...anyways, that's why the demand for menhaden as bait has risen....its relatively cheap, plentiful (the Southern reduction fleet is what puts the pressure on menhaden)...mackeral is also used as bait...the NY lobster fleet is small (300 boats, maybe). Most of the menhaden used in NY, NJ, DL is caught off the NJ ocean front during the summer (it is amazing the amount of menhaden off the NJ shoreline-up to 10 miles offshore)...usually Ark Bait moves their operations to NJ when the Bay is fished out.

Thanks Mike. I was just about to say the same thing. Where were all you guys that are bitching and moaning????
There were 3 of us at the meeting: MYSELF, MIKE (CLAMMER) and VIC (THROWING TIMBER).
The meeting was at night. It was listed here on this board. Yet 3 of use showed up. YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW MANY GUYS FROM ARC BAIT WERE THERE????

Bunch of f***ing hypocrits on here. You are all bitching now because the pogy boats are taking all the pogies Waaaa waaa! Like Mike says if some of you would get off your asses and help maybe we could be heard but not when there are 30 or 40 of the pogy boat guys and 3 of us.:fury::fury::fury::fury::fury::fury::fury:

Pogies are not cheap considering in the eighties they were 12.00 per barrel. What are they now? Lobsters were paying 3.00 a lb. roughly and now thay aren't much more. As long as yo-yoing is legal I'll never side with the bass guys and I made my living catching bass for 20 years!

Cut me a little slack.I'm trying to rattle some chains.Maybe form a group.I also responded on the other site.Same guy.:wall:

At the Menhaden Advisory Panel mtg in Jan., there were approx.20-25 guys (I was there)...at the Public Hearing, I think I was the only one there....I pushed for the 2 million pound floor (originally RIDEM wanted 1 million) and got the Marine Fisheries Council to pass that....there were guys there for the Fluke Sector Program, Gillnetters and a few guys from RICRRA...nobody else that I knew (Clammer may have been there)

there was only 4 guys from Ark Bait....nobody from Gloucester's Group Lakeman (Taylor Pt/Ugly Duck)....

Thanks for showing man.I wish I knew then what I know now.Do you have any idea on how they came to 1million pound floor.

RIDEM "modeling"...or should I say "science"......

bye bye pogies........
 

......catch 'em up---------beyond the 50%(like last year with a virtual 100% removal, a repeat in the making for 2010)-------then move north & south along the coast.....give the pogies needed bay/river sanctuaries---instant replay in the making............the :biglaugh: is on the pogies...unfortunately.........:uhuh:..gonna be a 2 vessel race until this Friday,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,:wall:

Multiple use,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
 

.............recreational & commercial utilization of the Bay menhaden resource is honorable..............however, the pogies need a break in the form of sanctuaries........real time areas such as the Prov River etc. .......................thats all.....................common sense

I fish south of the PR this morning but I got a call that said there was 1 small school and 30 boats on them. Insanity I say!!!

Pogies will be the next herring. Let the moratorium begin.

The RIMFAC used to meet the first Monday of every month. You can look up the agenda for the coming meeting on the DEM website abd also see the minutes of the previous meeting.