What's their to understand? They want quotas increased so that they can make more money, while consistently stating that the stocks can support it without providing any reliable evidence. They want to pad their wallets, I want to preserve the health of a struggling resource.

Oil companies are trying to shoot down clean air and alternative energy initiatives across the country while providing misinformation to the general public. Should I be sympathetic to the oil companies desire to make more money and strike down other industries, as opposed to thinking that they are merely trying to increase their own wealth at the expense of the general public?

Many commercial guys are opposed to this insane proposal.

Sure, a myopic one year look at the data indicates a small increase will not reduce spawning stock biomass but that view ignores two important ASMFC reports.

ASMFC managers have been informed by scientists that fishing mortality is higher than currently calculated due to poaching and a new (f) or fishing mortality number is being developed.

The managers have also heard presentations that natural mortality is higher than currently being calculated due to the disease mycobacteriosis being detected in the coastal spawning stock and Hudson and Deleware river stocks.

Managers are quietly talking about a fishing reduction when the updated mortality numbers come in but the State of NY pushed the short term viewpoint.

Any Charter Boat or other buisness that testifies for a commercial increase should be boycotted. Why give money or refer money to those willing to risk the future of our fish. Hit them in the wallet is what I say.

That is what is important to them....do you run your business to make money or are you a not-for-profit organization? That is their means to make money, they are good at it and they depend on it. Walking into a meeting with the attitude that they are raping a resource is not going to accomplish anything.

not for nothing but the science on both sides of the argument pretty much sucks so who do you listen to....

Is it because the resource is struggling or because its a resource you have a personal interest in that makes it worth protecting.

some would argue that the plight of the plover is a resource worth protecting :hihi:

If people go into these meetings playing the blame game...both sides get pissed, and any credible arguments they have, become meaningless.

BP, You and I have butted heads on a few occasions but I could not agree more with the above comment. Groups that support a commercial increase are either demonstrating their selfishness or completely out of their mind.

Nope. My business doesn't involve exploiting a natural resource or anyone for that matter. It involves win-win situations for all parties involved - they get high quality service, I get paid. On the other hand, those that support an increase to the quotas are, in my opinion, merely looking to further exploit a resource that is potentially on the verge of a crash for slightly more money in the short term - a situation that is eventually a lose-lose for everyone when they are out of business due to a lack of fish.

I completely agree and have never contested that. My contempt is with people of the opinion that because there is little reliable science demonstrating the stocks are at risk, that means quotas can be increased even though there is as much a lack supporting their position. There's far more risk in having a quota that is too low, than there is of having one that is too high.


My position is because I believe the resource is struggling. As I've stated before, with healthy stocks and effective regulation, I'd support commercial fishing. Unfortunately, ASMFC sucks... plain and simple. The stocks do not show obvious signs of health and the regulatory body consistently demonstrates their incompetence.

And don't get me started on the plovers.:p The plight of that species is a demonstration of Darwinism, not over-exploitation.

Come on, that's it? Nobody else feel they can show up for one one of these meetings?

Why do you think that is John???? Its because that there are Way More people on this board selling bass both boat and surf during the com season. Times are tough, not everyone can afford to drop a few hundred bucks a trip to go fishing on a regular basis, they need to sell fish to at least offset expenses, or fish damn hard and make a few bucks to get ahead during the comm season...

Now before the JohnnyD's, Makai's,Numbskull's, and the Sandmans jump all over me, I in no way support this bill... I dont think there is a need to raise the Comm quota and I myself am not for this bill. I though dont rely 100% to make a living from being on the water... However, I dont think raising the Mass comm quota will make much of a difference because honestly, I dont think many on here get it, the real damage to striped bass is done well south of Mass and its not by Comms. 1.1 million pounds is probably killed on a weekly basis in some of these areas, kind of a joke. Cut the Rec catch to 1 fish at 34-36" coastwide and it WILL make a difference. The Black Market for striped bass Im sure is well over 1.1 million pounds in some states during a season... Who is killing those fish, just Comm Guys??? Common....

Hey Kenny, if these New England guys would see the amount of slob fish killed in a 6 mile stretch in Monmouth Cty NJ during a good May or June week, they would crap their pants.

Pretty sure the Mass quota has increased nearly every year since the moratorium ended. Why all the fuss now? Isn't Mass authorized to take up to 2 million pounds if they see it fit? If anything, Mass has stayed pretty conservative with regard to commercial pressure.

I would, however, end the out of state licenses so us poor Taxachusetts residents have a bigger piece of our own pie to eat....don't forget the sales tax holiday this coming weekend, either...now is the perfect time to buy that expensive piece of fishing gear you've longed for but needed just a little nudge...

To those of you attending meetings, thanks for doing that, If they had Maryland hearings, I would be all over it. Maryland just does whatever they wish to and then hire the professional justifier to fend off those of us with common sense. They don't do 'public comment' or 'will of the people' well here. Usually we just get a 'thank you for writing' form letter.

If the commercial and recreational catches need to have equity, then how about making a keeper slot for recreational fishing and reduce the take to one per day.

Also ask them why the two fisheries need to have equity to increase the catch rather than find equity by decreasing the catch.

How many of us really need to take more than 1 fish per day? One fish a week or every 4-5 days is about my take.

Crap, I went thru all this in 1976-1981 with Stripers Unlimited.
Then there was a proven problem and at every meeting I attended
(at Boston Aquarium et.al.) arguing for sanity, the
commercials in large attendance pooh-poohed the
loss as poor statistics, natural cause or taking food
out of the mouths of their babies.
Why do we have to go over this all again. Take a
look at the latest issue of Surfcasters Journal
for confessions of a poacher. The commercial limit
is a fiction, wrapped in a mystery and coated with
statistics.
I will be at the meeting in Dedham and will speak
against any such nonsense. Recreationals have to
register and pay a license next year as part of a
program to measure their limits. Until we have
more info from this program hold all changes.
This is a blatant attempt to grandfather in quotas for
commercials before the recreational licensing begins.
See youse there. I will be wearing my MSBA shirt.

[QUOTE=CowHunter;787846]Why do you think that is John???? Its because that there are Way More people on this board selling bass both boat and surf during the com season. [quote]

I'd be shocked if 10% here were selling commercially - and I don't have a problem with it - within reason. I have a lot of friends and fellow anglers that are licensed commercial shore and boat, different states. If the stocks were in better shape, I'd consider getting a license myself.

What's at stake: So while Rec fishing might be up since 2003 the general consensus is that it has long since peaked and is in decline. With Commercial harvests off slightly over that same time period, why would we want to INCREASE the take?

Personally, I'm for reduction on both Rec & Commercial harvest - not elimination.

[QUOTE=CowHunter;787846]I dont think many on here get it, the real damage to striped bass is done well south of Mass and its not by Comms. 1.1 million pounds is probably killed on a weekly basis in some of these areas, kind of a joke. Cut the Rec catch to 1 fish at 34-36" coastwide and it WILL make a difference. The Black Market for striped bass Im sure is well over 1.1 million pounds in some states during a season... Who is killing those fish, just Comm Guys??? Common.... [quote]

So because the real damage is being done down south we should ignore it? Or allow it to do even more real damage? Because the black market is for say 1.1 million pounds we should ignore it?

Sheeit, we might as well open the EEZ while we're at ignoring the other things.

I agree with Kenny on this issue; I'm fine, for the present time, with the commercial quota the way it is (I have fished commercially since 1972, thru the good and the bad). My issue is that the rec people do not realize how many fish they kill during the season. As I said, I have been on the water for close to 40 years, and I don't EVER remember seeing this many people fishing for bass exclusively....each year, as fishing has gotten better, more people fish for them....look at the charter boat industry, even headboats regularly fish for striped bass these days. Back in the beginning of the lean years (late 70's, early 80's) charter boats fished for bluefish regularly, tuna most of the late summer and fluke, cod....they were only 3 or 4 boats at the Point (Judith) who fished bass regularly. Striped Bass is now a mainstay of the charter industry...as Kenny said, see what goes on down south of us (NJ, and Maryland, Virginia in the winter); that is what is effecting the population.

The coastwide commercial quota has been static for more than a few years; the recreational catch has increased exponentially with the increase in biomass for the last several years...anyone (Rec or Comm) who denies that is living in a fantasy world.
It gets very tiring to constantly hear how the commercial fisherman is killing all the bass when I have only been allowed to use the same amount of quota each year....I only catch more if some other areas don't have fish, but I do....at the end of the day X amount of fish are landed and subtracted from the alloted quota (be it MA or RI or NY)...

Now, reduce the recreational bag limit to 1 fish per day (as it was back when fish were everywhere, sic 1990's, early 2000's)...then see who squawks....

[QUOTE=JohnR;787869][QUOTE=CowHunter;787846]Why do you think that is John???? Its because that there are Way More people on this board selling bass both boat and surf during the com season. [quote]

I'd be shocked if 10% here were selling commercially - and I don't have a problem with it - within reason. I have a lot of friends and fellow anglers that are licensed commercial shore and boat, different states. If the stocks were in better shape, I'd consider getting a license myself.

What's at stake:

So while Rec fishing might be up since 2003 the general consensus is that it has long since peaked and is in decline. With Commercial harvests off slightly over that same time period, why would we want to INCREASE the take?

Personally, I'm for reduction on both Rec & Commercial harvest - not elimination.

[QUOTE=CowHunter;787846]I dont think many on here get it, the real damage to striped bass is done well south of Mass and its not by Comms. 1.1 million pounds is probably killed on a weekly basis in some of these areas, kind of a joke. Cut the Rec catch to 1 fish at 34-36" coastwide and it WILL make a difference. The Black Market for striped bass Im sure is well over 1.1 million pounds in some states during a season... Who is killing those fish, just Comm Guys??? Common.... I dont think anybody is here ignoring the issues, hell Ive been pretty outspoken about alot of the issues especially protecting the EEZ... It is in all our best interest to protect the fishery as best we can. I may not do 360 days a year but I do about 150 trips a season for striped bass in several states from Mass to NC and have seen change of migrational patterns, water temp changes YOY, fish setting up in different areas, and most important the bait situation. I'm sorry if the fish dont show up in the same areas as they did in past years but they do need the right conditions. And Im sorry that the fish arent stacked on the beach in every spot that people surfcast.... Guys on here that bitch and whine that there are no striped bass around honestly dont have a clue about the fishery and its just a waste of time discussing the issue with them, if only they knew the potential out there....(By the way I am really glad they dont know) I Do not think the fishery is on the verge of collapse if guys are running out there doing 30, 40, 50, 200 + fish a trip, Sorry.... You know there does have to be a balance of Bass and bait... The big bodies of fish are going to where the bait is to sustain them, plain and simple... Best of luck in the 2010 season! As for me, been the best year for big fish with 5 50's and a 67.4 boated on my boat. By the way Team Reel Deal Got another board fish yesterday... Not bitchin' just fishin....

As far as just 10 % on here with com license, I really dont know what the numbers are, but nearly all that I talk to on this board sell bass...

&&&&&&&& around & around ?>?>?>?>?:jump1:

It is a merry go round!!!!

Look at how many guys are attending this meeting... 5 a day??? How many on this site??? Some of the others don't see a problem and the rest are selling Bass!!

JMAC and Cowhunter - now you can come to the meetings then and take the position that I'm advocating ;) : NOT to increase the commercial quota. I'm not saying end comm fishing. The purpose of this meeting is to take public input on whether or not there should be a quota INCREASE. So in that it then it appears we're in agreement.

My regular position with regard to the overall stocks it to cut rec & comm back by a third which is better for the fish. And protect the forage fish.

I'm working on getting my son a ride to football so I can go.The bill is nonsense.RI

A777

THIS ISN,T A RI proposal ...this is higher up .federal or someplace .,.,:confused:

I'm 90% certain I'll make it that night

Let me get this right.The increase would be for

1.RI 3,662 lbs
2.MD 2164 lbs
3. NY 232,767 lbs

Total of 238,593 lbs of bass on top of the already 7,341,207 lbs total between the two.Making the new total 7,579,800 lbs.

3,806,275 for both rec and comm.

Can someone tell me how they guesstimate the rec numbers in the first place.

It sure seems like they apply the following technique:
http://www.thousandtyone.com/blog/co...edWithDart.gif

If there is a discrepancy between the comm take and the recreational take, why not decrease the recreational take rather than up the comm quota to level it out??? Make the recreational limit 1 fish per day, any size... But upping the comm quota to simply be equitable with the bogus recreational figure doesnt make any sense... smells like some lobbying going on behind the scenes...

Reduce the recreational take????? Recreational season doesnt close, you can go 7 days a week, 1,2,3,4,5 times a day, 12 months a year in some states as long as you dont have more than 2 fish in posession at anytime... Nobody counts those fish... Those rec kill numbers are way, way higher than anyone can estimate, they can never estimate em as they have no clue... The 1 fish a man would make the greatest difference, just think u do have to put a size limit on it...

I'm saying reduce the rec take by 50% by making it one fish per day instead of 2. Since it's never REALLY possible to accurately estimate the amount of fish joe-weekend takes, if 75% of anglers are honest and actually follow regs, than the 1 fish per day would reduce the amount taken by a large percentage... I feel I'm getting off topic though... the Point I am making is this :

you should never INCREASE a take (comm quota) in an attempt to equalize a discrepancy... If it is thought that the rec-angler takes more per year, then take steps to reduce that amount, not increase it to make everyone happy. the goal should be to decrease the total amount of the resource taken per season... on BOTH SIDES... Do what's best for the RESOURCE and it's future, not disgruntled categories of anglers... that is a no-brainer

I agree with you 100%.. The problem is that the Recs will never go for the 1 fish until its to late, If the com catch was increased to even 50% of the rec catch man would people be crying....

Many recreational fisherman are too shortsighted when it comes to their own favorite past time... I'm a rec. angler, and I would like to be catching bass 10 years from now.

I agree with this but for a reason you will not like. Looking at this from another stand point why would a recreational fisherman agree to a one fish limit when others individuals are allowed to catch many more and make a profit from it. I agree that we need to reduce the recreational harvest but I think the only way it can actually happen is by either eliminating commercial fishing or greatly reducing the quota.

To say their is a "discrepancy" because recs catch is increasing while commercial is not, is meaningless and should not be part of the management process. Actually the recreational catch has not been increasing over the last five years, it has more or less been stable. Fisheries are to be managed in the best interest of the public. From a dollar standpoint for stripers the big money and jobs comes from recreational fishing. From the human standpoint millions of people get to enjoy recreational fishing for stripers bring family and friends together, even if only for one day. May sound corny but it's true.

We can keep say the fish are just in other areas or people do not know how to fish but doesn't match the ASMFC numbers. There has been about a 20%decrease in the spawning stock from 2004 to 2008.

I really believe that even if you did get rid of the Comm fishing in Mass and RI the combined 1.3 million pounds will not make a difference. I know many will disagree....

What happens to the general public, who do not fish, but love to eat fish, specifically striped bass? It has been a tradition for generations that specific sectors of the population (be they religious, ethnic, etc), have eaten striped bass. I know the argument always comes up about farm raised HYBRID striped bass....but it just doesn't pass muster compared to the real thing. So by caving in to the demands of the recreational fishery to have the whole fishery to themselves, you eliminate that portion of the population that does not have the means to catch it themselves.
And as you say, recreational fishing is a big cash cow...boats based on striper fishing, tackle based on striper fishing, quasi-commercial aspect of charter boat industry, etc....sounds pretty hypocritical to me that the commercial fisherman is the culprit to the supposed "downfall" of the striped bass....as always, it comes down to what's in it for me....

JMAC

Were you on the water today ??? east passage ????:confused:

The biggest mistake any of us can make based on this issue is to pick a side, and then argue it's validity... Do whatever it takes to preserve and protect the future of this fragile resource... I dont give a rats arse about the person who loves the taste of striped bass... They'll be tasting frozen fish sticks when the fishery collapses again... Do what's best for preserving the resource... period.

We tried to reduce recreational take in Rhode Island some years ago by asking our managers for a more conservative option. Our managers told us that AFMFC will take any savings and give it to other states/user groups. When AFMFC says "your permitted to take so much in your state" you have to come up with a figuere that equals an amount that they approve - any more they reject it - any less they take the savings and pass it to someone else. No leeway.

I would think that a majority of recs would approve of a more conservative take - an exception would possibly be the "for hire" industry but they are a small fraction of the rec number. But recreational take is not the issue here at these current meetings.

DZ

no.....haven't been in Bay since RI season....except bait....banging my head against the wall in MA...

I disagree mostly because you aren't including the copious amounts of poaching in that number.

You guys are making a big deal over the poaching that is going on during the mass and Ri commercial season. What you fail to understand is that it still goes towards the quota which gets shut down in Ma at 1.1 million pounds. And in Ri on their spring and fall quota which is what, 100k or so? Fish are swapped Ma, Ri and so on. How many of the best comm guys u see out there fishing bass when the season is closed??? The bigger problem lies in rec guys going out 1, 2 plus times a day keeping their 2 fish each and selling them black market, nobody is counting those fish and that is going on in quite a few states where the black market is huge. Forget about nc and Va, those southern boys make the northern poachers look like amatures, they use gill nets, drag Em, haul seign Em and don't give a rats as about being legal on the water... They also poAch the eez zone without a care in the world.. All the hard core rec guys that want 2 at 28 inches promote poaching the wAy I see it. I only kill for myself what I am going to eat fresh not freeze when I'm not com fishing or doing charters. On the charters guys don't care what the limit is because they are going to kill the limit regardless.... This time around the rec guys can blame the comm guys, but in the end, it's the rec guys killing well over 90percent of the striped bass kill... Is what it is...
Johnny, rec guys, kinda like ur teapot to kettle pic???
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

sure seems like if it was'nt for the $$$ tag on them alot of problems would'nt exist....:huh:

Going strictly from what I've experienced, almost every single commercial fisherman I have met has "issues with counting". That's not to say that all of them break the law, and the ones I've met are a small sample size. There is no denying that not all the fish that are caught on a commercial license are sold legally.

With regards to rec guys making 1 or 2+ trips a day and getting their 2 fish each time, I've never witnessed it - I'm sure some people do. I'd be curious to see *any* report that shows the recreation kill is "90percent of the striped bass kill".

In terms of me keeping fish, I've kept one this year and it was for my girl's mother.

In case you didn't get the teapot and kettle picture I posted, it was with regards to how you talk out of both side of your mouth. In one moment you complain about how many fish are killed and by whom, and in the next you're posting pictures of 50lbers killed and boasting about your 20 fish days.

I may disagree with Raider Ronnie on a pretty consistent basis, but at least he has enough balls to pick his side and stick with it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you think too many fish are being killed then put your money where your mouth is and stop chartering and give up your commercial permit, otherwise quit bitching about how many fish are killed and by whom.

Cow hunter... I dont know you, your profession, or your intent... and this is not meant as a jab... I mean it with no disrespect... but your avatar image speaks so much louder than anything you type in this forum... a picture is worth a thousand words... I've never removed that many breeders from circulation in my LIFETIME... never mind one tide... Like I said... no disrespect, but I can only stare at that image so many times before everything you type starts sounding like the teacher on Charlie Brown.

In no way am I complaining, just stating facts and experiences... I'm not going to stop chartering because it's killing bass, the law allows 2 fish a man, my clients want two fish so be it. I am stating that it is not necesary to have a 2 a man limit that clients merely kill two fish because the law allows it if the law allowed 1 fish a man they would be just as happy. As for the commercial season, I will fish it as long as it exists because the quota will get filled with or without me, yes I can live without it. I just don't think u guys realize how many guys do it, that's why u only have 5 guys a day going to this meeting... Yes raider Ronnie is strictly diehard com / charter guy... U do have to realize that charter guys are taking rec guys out fishing and charters are responsible for more rec kill than anyone else up the coast... Just because I am stating Facts, wether people like to hear it or not, there ate several states affecting the fishery not just Boston harbor or stellwagon... I'm sorry if I com fish, charter, and surf / rec fish, but I do it all and nobody has a right to tell me to pick a side or stop doing it cause it might be harming the fishery and so on, I am far from being blind as to what's going on. Ive fished on all sides.. I am telling you as a charter captain, the rec catch is way to high and way out of balance.
Again just because I dont agree with raising the com quota, in all honesty, On paper they deserve to raise the com quota to balance out the com vs recreational catch.... And yes, I truly believe the rec catch is 90% or better... I believe even the NOAA conservatively agrees with me by the look of their graphs...
For christ sake, we are comparing people running meth labs as equivelent to poachers. JohnnyD made a comment about Big oil preventing alternative energy... Well it is in their best interest... Is it any different than diehard rec guys or diehard comm guys wanting the fishery for themselves?????

If you want to read what the estimated recreational striped bass mortality rate is click below. If the fishery was going to collaspe it may be because of the recreational fisher person.

Catch And Release For Stripers