DeputyDog wrote:
Don't hold your breath waiting for a SF type to show up at any Mass meetings. We're not interested in debates with guys like you who live for nothing else. We're not interested in taking our case to the DMR or to the ASMFC or NMFS.

Actually Stripers Forever did make their case to NMFS at the Portland Maine hearing. Pitty though that they didn't have the stones to show up at the Mass hearing. Really, it was a missed opportunity for SF considering that Paul Diodati and other Mass DMF staff were present. SF is so quick to bash the DMF (from behind their keyboard of course) yet they choose not to face them in a public forum for fear of being exposed for what they are - which a farce.

Deputy Dog wrote:
When you have only one goal, who needs an E Board meeting?

What is that one goal again. Is it to ban commercial fishing, or is it to keep the EEZ closed to everyone including recreational anglers? Or is it something else? I guess we won't know because the only answers one can get from this group are from emails that they may or may not chose to reply to.

You only will support a cause when you are out front leading the charge.

I'm not sure what you are referring to hear but I have a hunch. Let me be very clear. Unless I specify that I am writing on behalf of an organized cause or a specific group, my personal comments on the various fishing websites are just that - my personal comments. That said, there are a number of issues that I discuss with great passion that I do not "lead the charge" on but that I like to think I offer some insight to (saltwater fishing licenses, opening the EEZ, etc...)

Deputy Dog wrote:
You may not have a commercial license, but you know a whole lot of guys that do! I think that most recreational fishermen should treat you as what a lawyer would call a "hostile witness".

I can take the lies from SF because I expect them.

I can take being charactarized as "hostile" especially when it is coming from a group that is trying to force folks out of work by all hostile means available.

But one thing I can't stand is when someone who has never met me somehow thinks he knows me.

For the record...

- I do not posess a commercial license for any species of fish

- I never have posessed a commercial license species of fish

- I have never sold any species of fish and I do not plan to

- To my knowledge, the number folks that I know personally who do hold a commercial license for strped bass numbers exactly 1 and I couldn't even tell you if he sold any fish this past year.

- Even if I did know several commercial folks, I would consider it an asset (great source of annectdotal data) and not a liability.

So why do I write so much against SF's efforts? Because I see them as just another unAmerican group trying to push a touchy/feely agenda - freedom be damned! In my opinion, Stripers Forever is not only motivated by a visceral contempt for commercial fishermen, but also by a contempt for those who simply do not fish like them.

Take the following quote from Mr. Burns regarding the EEZ for example...

"Additionally, I would add, it is the shore-based, or near shore fishermen that have historically targeted school sized stripers that have been left out of the striper’s recovery. And these anglers make up the vast majority of the fishing public. They, not the fat cats who can afford offshore boats, should be accommodated first."

This is nothing more than class-envy at its worst. I'm not a "fat cat" but I do go out on a couple of charters each year. Who is Stripers Forever or anyone else to tell me how I should fish based on my means? This is a very socialist argument and as an American I found this rhetoric to be completely nauseating.

DeputyDog, I am all about learning and getting things right. I try to look at all issues with an open mind and I take in information from many, many sources. If you wish to discuss the substance of Stripers Forever's positions (if any exists) then by all means please do. However, if all you can manage as a response to those who disagree with you is to point out that they made some typos, then I think you need to do a little more homework in order to represent your group a little better.

Friends don't let friends join Stripers Forever

Later,
Mike Flaherty
Quincy, MA

P.S.
If anyone is wondering why all of a sudden the Stripers Forever folks are now coming out of the wood work, it is because Brad Burns has instructed them to. The following is an excerpt from a recent message from Stripers Forever. Rather than defend his own positions, Mr. Burns is instructing his lemmings to do it for them.

SF wrote:
We need some help from our members this winter in spreading the word about SF and its single goal of gaining game fish stature for striped bass. Specifically, we need some volunteers to post our information to the various chat rooms and to defend our mission against the inevitable attacks that will be made.

...

If you like the forum environment and you want the opportunity to make a valuable contribution to our cause, please email our website to the attention of George and we can discuss how we can begin.

Heavy rhetoric here. Fisheries science is hard for one reason: because it has people as its base, and anytime people are concerned there are issues. I live in Rhode Island where the bass are managed differently. Three or four fish per day per license holder. Most the fish are caught rod and reel. The fish traps have a seperate quota with a slot limit: I thinks its 24"-28"
From reading some of these comments it sounds like Mass. is a real mess. I think 40 fish is too many and I think that it puts way too much pressure on the 'numbers spots' like Buzzards Bay and Vineyard Sound, Devils Bridge and Squibby. Rhode Island makes more sense. AS for Stripers Unlt. I don't know a thing about it. But I do know that i started to get tired of Salt Water Sportsman's editorials constant bashing of commercial harvesters. I worked on trawler's for twelve years, which doesn't really mean anything, except I'm sensitive to bashing of commercial fishing. But still i feel that the way Mass. is going about it is wrong, almost nonsensical. I have no solution, and besides, i don't follow the issues closely enough to have an opinion. But i love to fish and I love the striped bass and this is, I suppose, all I need for a voice in the matter.

Should definetly make stripers a game fish. Working in kitchens for a few years i can attest to the amount of anglers illegally selling bass to restaraunts, many times under 28 inches, makes me sick. Ive also been in the back of fish markets , where there were more then a few short striper racks in the scrap bin. Man in general is a very greedy animal, take away the profit and there numbers , im sure will skyrocket!!

Okay, reality check time here. The making of the Striped Bass into gamefish status is a bad move but before you go hopping around the room and cursing at your computer hear me out. I have been catching Striped Bass since I was 6 years old, I caught my first one at the end of the Scusset Jetty fishing with my Dad and brothers, I am 48 years old now. Most of you know me from the articles, column in On The Water and talks I do now and then on my favorite subject, the Striped Bass.

I put myself through school by commercially fishing for Striped Bass when it was seen as an honorable profession. I along with just about everyone else who fished in the late seventies and early eighties sold most of what we caught. It was a case of economics, ie; being on the verge of financial ruin most of the time, paying for school then being engaged and then newly married with a new home etc., it was a lot to pay for.

I sold my last fish in the fall of 86'. I stopped because I didn't need the extra money anymore and most of all because I had and have friends that are true commercial fishermen, meaning they do it all year 'round. Now these guys over the last ten years have taken a beating. They fish day boats. Twenty footers that go out when conditions permit and what with limits on cod and the like they can barely eak out a living. The one thing they have in common is that they do it because they love the work. They are not office types or warehouse types and any kind of onshore work just doesn't suit thier personalities. They didn't rape the oceans like the bigger draggers and such. They were lucky to do a thousand pounds in several days let alone in one half way decent haul.

My point is this. The letting out of licenses to people that have jobs onshore already and make $38.00 an hour fitting pipes or selling cars etc.is wrong. If your going to sell Bass then you should make your entire living from commercial fishing, year round.
I have said this a thousand times but how would you like it if somone showed up at your job, pulled up alongside and said to you that from now on for the next 8 weeks or so he is going to get a share of your salary? That's what is going on with anyone getting a license for selling bass as of this moment. Not fair.

I fish the beach and from my skiff 4 or 5 times a week. The number of recreational anglers seeking Bass has tripled in the last five years or so. The amount of fish they take home is enormous compared to the commercial catch. Sure we know how much the commercials take. They have to report it to the state and the state publish's those figures. Recs don't but if they did it would open alot of eyes.

Right now making it a gamefish and the efforts of SBF is a blatant attempt to skewer the view of the general public to thier one sided view. It is the cause of many without the benefit of the experience of the many years it takes to truly know the bass and the history of the fishery. I have seen bad times. In '82 I fished the canal religiously all season, night tides and day tides with some of the best bass fishermen the canal has ever seen and I caught two (2) all season form beginning to end. The cause of the decline to that level wasn't overfishing, it was the careless plundering of the eco system that supports the larval striped bass. DDT use in tobacco fields along the shores of the Chesapeake, pollution in the Hudson and acid rain. Not overfishing.

The striper is a fish with tremendous fecundity. Given the right conditions it spawns millions of fry. That should be the aim of SBF. To protect the environment that nutures the healthy re-production of the Striped Bass. To see that restrictions on the netting of forage fish that the Bass need to have when they reach the larger sizes is made into law. To restore the once abundant stocks of fish like Menhaden, Mullet and Herring.

Protect those resources and the bass will take care of themselves. Add to this a 36" limit for commercial and recreational fishermen alike at that size limit the law for the entire range of the Striped Bass. The Bass is an interstate traveller and belongs not to one state only and should be regulated as such. Not 18' here, 28' there, that's stupid management. And, lastly, again, make it legal for only the true commercial fisherman to harvest the Striped Bass, not weekend warriors and vacationing plumbers and office workers.

Just my two cents, thanks for listening.

Striped Bass
 

All I want to know is when is JohnR going to teach me how to catch some Striped Bass this year???

Flap, from your post is why I think the status quo should remain as is and the resource be shared equitably by all.

Flaptail said:
"My point is this. The letting out of licenses to people that have jobs onshore already and make $38.00 an hour fitting pipes or selling cars etc.is wrong. If your going to sell Bass then you should make your entire living from commercial fishing, year round.
I have said this a thousand times but how would you like it if somone showed up at your job, pulled up alongside and said to you that from now on for the next 8 weeks or so he is going to get a share of your salary? That's what is going on with anyone getting a license for selling bass as of this moment. Not fair."


You would first have to decide who is the "real commercial fisherman". Do you pull 1040 Tax Forms? Does the guy have an inheritance? How about if his wife brings home a salary? Do you disqualify him if he has a side job? Lots of things to think about.
Is a lobster fisherman or a dragger captain more entitled to sell a bass than a guy working in a Seven Eleven who doesn't make much more than minimum? And really anyboby in industry can grab your whole salary at any time. They just call it outsourcing, or competition. Businesses fold all the time and people get laid off. Thats the competitive market place at work.

My main point is that every select group has lobbied to give themselves the maximum share of the resource that they can reasonably aqcuire. We've heard all the arguments over the years.

Along comes a new group of fly fishing guides and tackle manufacturers, starts a website and comes up with a bunch of reasons why they want the resource for themselves. And on and on it goes.

There are sooooo many more fish around now than in the old days when we fished together, that an equitable distribution can be found if we all try. With the more groups in it, the more voices will be heard to keep the process as democratic as possible. I say maintain the status quo. ;)

Ed, I bow to the eloquence of your statement. The only thing is that when considering all the "other considerations " we may get caught up in the old "what if a dinosaur eats my house" theory when we opt to think of class status, inheritance, side jobs and the like.

Proof in a 1040a or other likewise printed history of income would tell the talein my theory. We could discuss it one night over the rythym of the surf as we cruise in my truck along a outer cape beach. What do you say?

I agree with your statement on the true interest of SBF. Pity they where the Emperors new clothes forall to see.

Crazy though it be true at our middle age we are "old timers" at this contest. Let's get together and talk of old times and glory days soon. OK my friend? ;)

It is never easy trying to decide who should be entitled to what resources and still retain the democratic principles. As the years go by I have more respect for those who make the rules regardless of what the critics say. It is not an easy process.

I agree we have to fish again this season. The "rhythm of the surf" I like that. We will tell good stories and maybe catch a few too. :D ;)

Ed

Flaptail says
Hello !!! Flaptail :smash: wake up this is "America" land of opportunity.
Your saying that car salesmen; pipe fitters; store clerks; computer gurus,etc. should be denied a commercial license if they are not full time commercial fishermen.So they can't supplement there income by commercial fishing or lobstering part time.

So you must also mean that commercial fishermen can't work on shore to supplement there income.

I know full time commercial fishermen that do work on shore when they are not out fishing . Some do construction work. I know one gill netter that when prices are low or weather like a month ago sets him back does carpentry work to supplement his income.
I've hired fishermen in the past when some have come on hard times. Maybe I won't do that anymore.

And it is interesting that you made that statement because a couple weeks ago we were talking about that at coffee. A few gill netters are going to try to get a state fishing law to deny part timers from fishing commercial. Maybe if they do that maybe I could apply for your job to supplement my income.:laughs:

If you understood, then you wouldn't have replied, why do you think these guys need a second job? Cause they want to? Don't you think that if they could make enough from fishing instead of competing with other knuckleheads they would work ashore? :wall: :rtfm: :yawn:

Commercial fishermen up here that want to fish make damn good money.
New cars; new houses they aren't hurting.
Maybe after this Amendment 13 goes into effect they might as more fishing days may be taken away. Then they will target other fish.

Hey, I'm in agreement with Flap, John and Ed. Status quo, with a 36" limit coastwide in the migratory range.

If you're really worried about the long-term health of the fishery start making noise to save the pogies, the main forage (or what should be) for bass. Get the purse seiners outta business and you're gonna take an enormous step in the right direction.

SAVE THE POGIES!!!!!

Screw the whales, dammit, they already got plenty of help now.

Where ya been man!!! There are no pogies. Yes a true die hard striper fisherman will go out to the river at one o ' clock in the morning, set his bait net that he paid 30 bucks for the permit ,bust his a$$ till day light for a dozen pogies and then go fishing. " AWH!!! I'm tired".
Did you say "perse seiners" or "perse snatches?" Name for us three perse seiners that you know that are fishing for pogies.
The pogie bussiness is dead! dead!! dead!!! Yes it may come alive once again. There are only a 1/2 dozen commercial boat permits out there and a couple of my friends have one. they keep dreaming of it being worth there time to catch them.

You must be kidding about a 36" size limit. Don't you remember we had a 36" limit that you the recreational fisherman wanted lowered. 36" was standed when they opened up the fishery.

"Where ya been man!!! There are no pogies....Name for us three perse (sic) seiners that you know that are fishing for pogies."

"Omega Protein is the world's largest manufacturer of heart-healthy fish oils containing Omega-3 fatty acids for human consumption, as well as specialty fish meals and fish oil used as value-added ingredients in aquaculture, swine and other livestock feeds. Omega Protein makes its products from menhaden, an Omega-3 rich fish that is not utilized for seafood, but which is abundantly available along the U.S. Gulf of Mexico and Atlantic Coasts."

"The Company utilizes a fleet of fishing vessels supported by spotter aircraft to supply menhaden to its four processing facilities in Louisiana, Mississippi and Virginia. We provide more than 1,000 jobs in the states where we operate. "

Well, it appears that somebody's seining pogies down South - so there's one, lemme come up with a coupla more...

Wait, Ark Bait up this way...there's two. Whaddya think, there might be at least a couple more between Virginia and Maine? Possible, huh? :rolleyes:

"You must be kidding about a 36" size limit. Don't you remember we had a 36" limit that you the recreational fisherman wanted lowered."

Yeah, I'm a rec but I assume you're using the editorial "you", Fly Rod, since I don't recall personally supporting anything to lower the size limit. I have a lot of friends who are comms and I don't - and never would - support making striped bass a game fish coastwide.

Like Ed said, it's a shared resource and it should be shared equitably.

So if you want to ensure a healthy fishery for ALL of us, screw the whales, SAVE THE POGIES!!!!!

The biggest part of commercial pogie fishing is down off New Jersey, south for around these parts and they are just as abundent as herring are up here. As for up this way there are only about 6 commercial licenses. They use to fish Boston Harbor,and allot of areas here. For the small amount of pogies up here does not make it fesible to fish commercially. Lot of them pogies From Jersey get shipped up this way for lobsta bait,mainly Maine. Maine lobsta men seem to prefer pogies
Stripe bassers basically do not benifit from pogies from the gulf of Mexico or from the southern states.

Also when I said name 6 that do fish commercially I didn't mean in the whole world. Go from Rhode Island, North.

And when I say "YOU" I mean plural.

I agree that it should be a shared resouce.
It was the recreational guys that wanted the 36" limit lowered.
I would rather see it at 36" up & down the coast. I wish that they never changed it
We are all recs until that 3-4 week season!!!!

Amen, brother, amen.

When the limit was 36 inches the fishing was the best I had ever seen and like you guys I wish it would go back to that. One fish a day at 36" and the commercial limit at 36" also.

Amen, I was at that hearing and was dead aginst lowering the size limet down.

Steve call me ,I left mssg. need to know for plans

Wow,

I am a regular on this site and frequent no other site. I missed this one thread, this was probably divine intervention.

I think a lot of what has been said is very healthy debate. Many of those posting have had good valid points. Also, there have been some gross mis-statements of fact made.

Before throwing my 2 cents in, I hope all of you show up this coming Monday & Tuesday nights for the MA DMF hearings that will adress amongst other things...reducing the MA commercial take to 20 fish per day and 10 on opening Day & Sundays. If you can not make it (very few ever show up), send in a letter with your comments. Check out the MA DMF web site for details. Also say hello, it will not be hard to notice me. :D

My 2 Cents

1...I will not adress, and fisheries managers also find it hard to adress anyone that breaks the regs. A criminal is a criminal. There will always be criminals. That is whether it is the enormous amount of short fish taken by the rec criminal or the illegally sold fish by commercials. Yes, management plans allow for some accounting of these illegally removed fish but how coulld we count them. Bottom line is more enforcement is needed and that will only come with MONEY & Political Will.

Political Will will not come until people show up and scream for more enforcement. I have been at 95% of the SB related hearings over the last 5 years and I can assure you that more independent persons have posted on this thread than have shown up at any one hearing. This does not constitute political will. Money is even harder to get and schools, 9-11 security, etc are rightfully in front of this issue on the State's budget list. A shame, no doubt, but a fact.

2...Protecting forage fish should be by far #1 when it comes to SB issues. Many have used good examples to back this up here. Currently there are two small cast net/Gill net guys harvesting Menhaden for sale at Bait in MA. Not one Pogey boat is left. thank god. numbers are slowly on the increase but are minimal

3...The MA Commercial SB system is set up and intended to be a part time, non-professional commercial fishery. Current DMF leadership & the majority of the members of the MA SB Advisory Panel want it that way.

As soon as displaced Professional commercial fishers enter this fishery looking for the next species to fish for, most will continue unsucessful practices (long term) and blow out their own new buisness. theeir pattern is next to be looking for government funded buyouts, larger quotas, and all the same issues as the last 7 species these professional commercials have overfished and screwed up. Not to mention that this commercial fishery can not support full time commercial efforts from any realistic financial perspective. Giving the professional commercial fishers the exclusive SB Commercial fishery is akin to introducing the drug addict to Methodone Maitenance instead of their Heroin Habit. (Very Very few ever adress their asddication and most go back to Heroin). This group needs to learn to change their Industry, aka Detox.

Another reason to keep the MA SB Commercial fishery non-professional is that it is an entryway for recs into the fishing industry in general. Many like Flap were MA Commercial SB fishers and moved on to other areas of the industry. Many, Many used this fishery while getting their charter Businesses up and running.

4...Stripers forever is a radical organization. Ok, this is America and they have the right to express their opinion. Their participation in the debate has and will shine light on needed issues. However, democracy works better that dictatorships and they will not gain Gamefish status because they do not have enough support. I choose to ignore them most of the time as I have the right to disagree. SF is small and do not represent even 1% of the 700,000 recs that fish MA salt water each year. As soon as you tell a rec that "Gamefish" means no dinner, no support.

5...Though many of us here on these boards would like to think that we represent the average rec, we do not. Most recs are bait dunkin meat fishin casual fishers that want a keeper to take home. Studies are showing that the average rec lands less than 1 keeper per year, not per trip, per year. I used to argue that this was rediculous, but I started to ask everyone that I know who fishes and now, even though I think the data could be better, I agree that not many do land keepers. My point is that many of us can land SB over 36", but many can not.

LIMIT ALL NON COMMERCIAL ROD &REEL 1 TAKEHOME PER WEEK .YA A SLOT LIMIT IS IN ORDER TO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Stick a fork in this stupid thread, it's DONE.................................!

Stripers Forever, really translates to "Stripers for Just Us":smash:

not !!!
 

agaian the dang tree huggers are here too . i guess these sponsors get non of my money . next i list pole #ers commercial fisherman have to eat too. i believe in recreational slot of 1 per day and a slot size that will keep them coming back .

i'm hungry enough so are my kids . so all you [ apparently he couldn't spell "pathetic"] fools can go back to you're desks and quit you're whinning.:af:

Why don't you bring something constructive to this instead of just being an jackass?

Re: not !!!
 

I believe in a slot, I believe in a reduction in the comm catch and I believe in mostly shutting down the commercial menhaden and herring fisheries. Leave some for the commercial lobstermen and some for the comm/rec anglers, some for healthy dietary foods but not for cat food, fertilizer, and lubricants.

Do you think that overfishing is good? Obviously you can't be commercial bass fisherman because, yes, you WOULD starve doing that. You MUST be doing other kinds of fishing. So let me ask you something - do YOU think the fisheries, even commercial fishing, would benefit by more forage fish?

As for your "pathetic" comment, I think you were pretty pathetic with it.... unless you happened to spell that wrong which I doubt.

Oh, and sponsorship here has zero bearing on how we discuss fisheries stuff. Unlike a lot of the "sponsors" in the National Fisherman :doh: . Never has and nerver will. StripersForever doesn't exactly have a link here either....

the striped bass is too valuable to be persued by select comercial interests it does not deserve to be caught by gillnets and meat fisherman. the striped bass should be treated like the amazing creature it is. i only keep a striper every once and a while and i wont keep a fish over 40inches to preserve the spawing stock. i want to see a slot limit put in place in every state to protect the spawing stock

here on this link there is a slide show of how they used to net stripers it rather sicking http://www.noreast.com/homepage/index.cfm scroll down the right of the page until you see the boxed pic of dead stripers it has a link next to the pic that says slide show WATCH IT THINK ABOUT IT

John, for the love of God! End this stupid thread!:smash:

God! Maybe, since it is such an icon of nobility, we should just completely ban fishing for stripers?

Brad Burns has a solution looking for a problem.

DMF proposal to allow dealers to sell during April through November striped bass legally caught and documented from out-of-state. Whole fish would have to conform to the Massachusetts 34” minimum size and bear an official tag designating state of origin. This proposal does not alter the existing rules governing imported striped bass during December through March.