Tenure does not guarentee jobs. Tenure gives some additional protection to teachers who have it. It provides certain rights to reviews and hearings on performance, based on established good record. It prevents a new principal from coming into a school and firing a veteran teacher a month later because they don't like them. If the teacher is not performing, the administration starts the process. I agree that the process may be too slow and bureauocratic, but it does not guarentee jobs to people who don't perform. If the teacher performs appropriately, they are provided greater protection against layoffs compared to those with less seniority or without tenure.

The second item... could you identify one instance where teachers chose layoffs over benefit reductions? If you can, I will respond with all the examples of the antithesis that I have personally been part of.

I served on the Board Of Ed for 2 terms in my town. Tenure makes it very, very difficult to fire teachers for incompetence.

Zimmy, every single time there are teacher layoffs, the layoffs are done to cut a certain dollar amount from the budget. Common sense tells us that you can achieve the same dollar savings by reducing benefits.

At the end of my second term on the Board Of Ed, we brought an actuarial consulting group in to look at some numbers. They concluded that if eliminated pensions and swithched to a 401(k) type plan, we could hire 11 additional teachers with the savings. The union rejected that almost unanimously...that was when I quit.

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7...irstComment=20

Chose from Jobs Teachers are laid off due to state budget cuts Salary Choose Jobs

"The Clark County teachers union said Monday it won’t agree to salary and benefit concessions even if it means teachers are laid off due to state budget cuts."

I'm not saying that teachers never, ever agree to pay cuts in order to save jobs. I'm saying it's the exception. Every town that gives its teachers pensions and cadillac health insurance, could hire more teachers if the benefits were more realistic. That irrefutably helps students.

In my entire life, I have heard exactly one public schoolteacher advocate for lower benefits and more teachers, becdause that would help the kids.

"tenure does not guarantee jobs".

It guarantees that when there are layoffs due to budget cuts, the non-tenured teachers go first. You cannot claim that helps kids...

Zimmy, google "teacher of the year laid off, and you will see several examples of non-tenured teachers being named teacher of the year in their district, only to be laid off to save the tenured teachers. In this case, you are letting go the best teachers who get paid less, and keeping the less qualified teachers who also make more. How does that help kids, exactly?

The concept of tenure is archaic.

How about paying their "Fair Share"?? Chicago average salary is $41+/- K, teachers average $71K... or is the fair share only for everyone else??

On Tenure, it was originally established to prevent administrators from firing educators based on their views, not to make it virtually impossible to fire incompetent teachers...

Well said Fishpart. Spot on.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

For my friend RIJimmy- I wasn't going to respond...figured I'd let your post speak for itself.....but then again:

"You replied to my positive note on Texas experience with (a) attack on Texas education which had nothing to do with my post."

Actually Jimmy I was responding to your attack on Chicago schools with your own limited personal experience in Texas...I merely pointed out the statistics. Believe them or not...I didn't make them up...really do hope your kids fare better than the average.

"Bottom of the barrel is interesting, I guess you didn't read (to) top high school link I posted."

Wrong again...as I said, glad you picked a "good" neighborhood. Fact is the rest of the state is just about as bad as it gets. Surprised you didn't note that in your extensive research?

"As far as being a pompous ass, (you) president is the one that highlights I am in the top percent in this country and since I didn't inherit it, I guess I earned it, so yeah(.); I am more experienced and thus pompous. "

I believe I said "I" would feel like a pompous ass....but since you claim the title. Here's what the dictionary says: Pompous:1. Characterized by an exaggerated show of dignity or self importance; 2. Bombastic or self-important in speech and manner. (let me know if you want the definition for bombastic) PS Do you guys have your own president in Texas? You do know your gov. lost in the primary?


"And I have lived in areas all over this country and know a lot."

See above definition.

" Something tells me you re a townie that lives about 5 miles from where (our) were brought up."

Almost right with this one! Next town over....gotta love a 10 minute commute and love the stability. All over the country huh? Trouble holding a job; military brat? Maybe you should have a union job with a little security!

"I'd compare salaries but your defense of unions already tells me where you stand."

I make quite a comfortable living thanks....worked my way up the ladder for 34 years and retire early on 11/13. Just in time for an election celebration I hope! Not union....sorry to disappoint you! PS I make it a point to try not to judge individuals by the size of their bank account....you might want to reconsider how you evaluate people...might just find out there are some good people out there who have different priorities in life!

"Maybe when you are the builder or the financier of multi million dollar housing we can talk."

Well..I usually don't like to blow my own horn....but just so you won't take me off your Christmas card list. I guess you misunderstood what I meant when I said "manage". What I am is a municipal planner with 34+ years experience. (My guess is your "have more experience statement" isn't quite correct. If you were claiming more experience than "x" and not "me", my apologies.) And no I don't build or finance these projects...hope that doesn't keep me out of the highbrow club! What I have done or "do do" if you prefer is design, administer and oversee programs for housing development. Latest projects...a school reuse project providing 63 units of housing for the elderly; a 20 unit family project; 94 units in an "expiring use" complex; a 9 unit SRO for vet's...and a bunch more including the latest which I'm especially proud of; the acquisition and rehab. of two single family homes that will be dedicated to vets of the Iraq/Afghanistan conflicts. A couple more before I go...designed and administered a revolving loan program that leveraged $150,000 in federal funds into a multi-million dollar home loan program that has assisted over 500 families bring sub-standard properties into code compliance and last but not least designed and ran a First Time Homebuyer program, in cooperation with Mass Housing Finance Agency, Mass Housing Partnership and local lenders to provide home financing for moderate income families that has put over 200 families in their 1st homes... and I might add sports a default/foreclosure rate well below current private market rates.

Excuse me for the corrections on your post; I know you financial sector types sometimes have problems with that left brain/right brain thing.

you didnt correct my posts, you gave me your opinion,. once again limited by your experience which is comprised of living in one area of the country and your ability to copy text from the internet.
As far as my living all over the country, sorry not a military brat. i grew up in a small home in a tiny town in CT with a proud blue collar democrat family. Same spot for 18 yrs. Once I graduated from a public college, the world was my oyster. Its something called "ambition". 100% on my own $ I have lived in Boston, San Francisco, Los Angeles. Providence. I have been courted by many major companies and often convinced to move. Not for the $, but for the experience and enjoyment of all this great country has to offer.
As far as sterotyping me as a finance guy, I believe you do know I am a musician and I have played at the Whiskey in LA, clubs in Boston, and multiple jazz gigs at the Top of the Hub and Scullers in Boston. Does that make me a pompus musician, no it makes me an experienced one. I can honestly say that playing music over 30yrs, never playing in cover bands or wedding, etc. I have an informed musical opinion.
So pull your head out of your arse and look around. I referred you twice to a listing of the best high schools in the country and you have ignored the FACT that Texas has many of the best. Its a fact. The fact that texas as a whole may significantly lag the other states does not bother me given the size and diversity of texas. We have some of the richest spots in the country and some of the poorest. Its the equivalent of comaring a problem in RI with a problem in Brazil. The scope and scale varies greatly.
I dont judge people by the salaries, but I value the opinion of people based on their experience, positions, knowledge and often those are reflected in salaries. WHo would you listen to for a tax question a clerk at HR Block or a CPA?
Good luck to you, I am sure you are a nice guy. But the internet is a big place and eveybody's opinion is not created equal.
signed- a proud pompous ass

Well aren't you special! :love:

PS Don't doubt you're a good guitarist but you probably should have been a horn player....you seem to be very good at blowing your own horn!

toot toot!

What is it about this forum that brings out the worst in people.

Can you guys please back off and relax please

:love:

Truce....Jim let's agree to only respond to each other on the music/fishing forums as it appears that both of us like to get in the last punch.

Just for the record...a while back I suggested to JohnR that this forum should be removed as it denigrates what is an otherwise a pretty nice site.

see, I want to respond that this is another attempt by liberals to limit free speech and discussion but in the spirit of good will I wont. :jump1:

Go re-string your guitar!