Just to clarify---Livestrong has never raised a single cent in support of cancer research, nor have they ever claimed to. Their mission statement is to raise cancer awareness, and to work in support of cancer victims. They have donated money to victims to fund experimental treatments that typical health insurers won't cover. One aspect of support. It's a legit charity that unfortunately is one of several injured parties here.

Also, you have to know the difference between Livestrong.org, the non-profit that Armstrong established to raise cancer awareness/support, and Livestrong.com, which is Lance's personal money maker for Lance. That is the one that sells the Livestrong rights to companies that make cycling paraphrenalia (Nike jerseys, Giro helmets with the Livestrong colors/logo, sports drinks, etc).

Liestrong
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Southpark has already covered this. USA TODAY
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Secondary.
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relativism on steroids :) he was a victim :uhuh:

Floyd Landis, who is maybe not the best source for info, has said Michele Ferrari was concerned that doping had been the cause.

I'm guessing it's never something that can be proven anyways, but there's evidence it was going through some people's minds.

I suppose it doesn't really matter.

Livestrong was formerly referred to as the Lance Armstrong foundation. This was a charity Lance started before even his first tour win. My opinion is he did far more good than bad with his fame. Jimmys Dad is aperfect example of the inspiration he gave to others. He made a similar positive impact on countless other lives.I would be indebted to anybody who could provide comfort and levity for a loved one who was terminally ill and struggled on a daily basis,

I'd generally agree.

The thing about doping in cycling is that it's impact is small but significant at the top...perhaps a 3-5% increase in power which over the course of a long race or long climb does make a big difference. The point being that doping can't turn an average rider into a great rider, you already have to be elite. During Lance's reign at the TDF it was probably impossible to win unless you were doping.

Doesn't make it right, it's just a reflection of how screwed up the sport had become. If anything I'd judge Armstrong for the most it's how he carried himself to protect his doping.

-spence

I have to agree with Sea Dangles as well. I can't view Lance as purely good or evil even though he's a vindictive, narcissistic, malicious, cheating liar. Effectively stole and crushed the dreams and potential livelihoods of many. The list goes on of the "flaws", as Lance would say. But I struggle to dismiss the positive effects of the foundation, even if part of the reason he created it and some of his motivations behind it were selfish, and even if I'm far from a defender of his character overall.

The discussion on a lot of morality issues has certainly been interesting. I'm amazed how many people I've heard say "let them all dope" as it relates to all sports, not just cycling. The lack of will on the part of the public and overseeing bodies is a big contributor to the problem.

The sports culture still brings some athletes to a point of making a choice when faced with the option. I would imagine the hardest pressure comes when you're on the edge. Stay clean and live a normal life, or take what's being offered and achieve your dreams and goals, make money, maybe a lot. Until the consequences are in place and the culture has changed to further discourage that choice, I don't think we'll see an thorough change.

When I bring this topic up some people get irritated and state it's minor compared to the scale of the cheating, the lying, and of course relative to cancer, but we wouldn't be here talking about this if the culture didn't allow it in the first place.

Always liked this article addressing the culture:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/12/op...pagewanted=all

Anyone know if this was an illegal act punishable by fine/imprisonment?

Also, he sued people who were telling the truth about it.
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Lance reminds me of a surfcaster I know. Catching a 50 liber wasn't good enough, so he had to go out and take more pictures in different clothes and claim it was a 60 lber. Sociopaths love sports and competition.
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The doping or the lying?

Doping laws vary by country, but I doubt he could get in additional trouble at this point.

There's speculation he could be at risk for perjury and additional lawsuits to get back money he either won or was awarded in his own suits.

-spence

When greg Lemond won his first tour he was a support rider for Laurent Fignon (the professor).At this stage in his carreer he was an up and comer whose job was to help Fignon win another tour title.On the final day,which is historically nothing more than a fun ride where the leader drinks champagne with his team through the streets of Paris,Lemond put on a charge to win the tour and the disdain of a lot of Frogs.
In perspective all Lance did was out-cheat the rest of the cheaters.Kind of like Carl Lewis in the olympics where Ben Johnson got bagged.

Fignon, great rider...also a doper.

You're confusing Fignon and Hinault though. The team screwed LeMond out of a win in 1985 by lying to him about the position of his captain who was s#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g wind.

Lemond's 8 second victory over Fignon was in 1989 on the final time trial when LeMond brought out the aero bars...the second to the last stage. Perhaps one of the greatest moments in cycling.

For those who have never seen it it's worth watching on youtube. At the least that it's on ABC Wide World of Sports will make you feel a bit dated :hihi:

-spence

I believe it was the final stage (23rd) from Versailles to Paris. It is still the fastest average speed for a time trial over 10 miles in tour history.

Well yes, looking it up they did the time trial as the final stage which is rare these days. Usually as you noted the GC race is over by the second to the last stage and it's a sprinters finish. The riders drink champagne and generally screw around.

LeMond and Fignon weren't on the same team though that year. He rode under Fignon before the hunting accident.

-spence

That's not correct. Blood manipulation via synthetic EPO and autologous transfusions can make a much greater increase in performance. Up to and beyond 10%. It all depends on the blood values that nature gave you.

The UCI set a 50% hematacrit (HCT) standard as the limit for competition. People with a HCT level of 48% don't even need to engage in blood manipulation. In fact, they really can't due to the risk of busting the 50% threshold, which would cause them to have to wirhdraw from an event and stay out of ompetition until their levels dropped below 50%. However, if your HCT level is 42%, you can get a much bigger boost in performance by adding a few red blood cells. You can take synthetic EPO to stimulate their growth, or you can re-infuse a pint of your own blood that's been in cold storage. The more red blood cells you have, the higher your oxygen uptake. More oxygen transported to the cells increases performance endurance and short term power.

BTW, that 50% threshold didn't exist in the Armstrong era, so Lance could theoretically raise his HCT levels to 60% via transfusions and EPO. He could use EPO with impunity during his first 3 wins because the test for that wasn't used in cycling until about 2001-2002. And it's only been in the last 3-4 years that they've developed ways to detect doping via transfusions.

Just to give you a reference, on my last blood test, I was borderline anemic. My red blood cell (RBC), hemoglobin (HGB) and hematacrit (HCT) levels were all below normal range. HCT was 39%.

But in doing so would put you at much greater risk of detection. The 3-5% is what I've read cyclists believe they can realistically get and not put themselves at terrible risk.

Yes, the greater your natural hematacrit levels the less you have to dope and stay within legal bounds, but you can only do so much with transfusions alone. After that you need to microdose EPO which is hard to detect.

I believe the 50% hematacrit threshold testing was started in 1997. It was EPO at that time they couldn't detect yet. And as you've noted, now they test for plastic chemicals (clenbutyerol or something?) in the blood bags. According to Contador it's very common in beef :hihi:

As EPO testing became normal they started micro-dosing EPO to avoid the tests.

Did you read the Tyler Hamilton book? It was pretty interesting.

-spence

He would be right at home.:buds:

LeMond and Fignon were not teammates in 1989. They were teammates in 1984, when LeMond placed third in his first Tour, riding in support of Fignon. In 1985, Bernard Hinault offered him a million dollar contract to join the team that he formed, La Vie Claire. In return for LeMond supporting him that year, when Hinault was trying to tie the all-time win record ,Hinault agreed to return the favor the following year, and whether he kept his word depends on who you believe. Hinault claims to this day that he knew that LeMond was stronger, and that he'd be able to reel him in, so he surged to try to break the field for LeMond. LeMond feels that Hinault stabbed him in the back, with the blessings of the team management. LeMond left the team after winning in 86. When he came back in 1989 after his hunting accident, Hinault retired, and he and Fignon were on different teams.

By the way, as far as I know, nobody has ever made a doping allegation against Hinault that stuck. Not that "never testing positive" means anything, but he never failed a test. LeMond, who seems to not be shy about naming names, has never accused him of doping. When they were teammates, their team manager was fanatical about not having dopers on his team. So while all 5 of Hinault's wins might not be clean, it would seem that his last one was.

And of course both Fignon and Hinault long maintained that LeMond was clean for his entire career. And if you look at how far and fast he fell when doping took over, that also supports his innocence.

Clenbuterol is a steroid used to treat asthma and bronchitis, but unlike albuterol, its usage by athletes is totally prohibited. Can't get a medical exemption for it. It increases RBC count, too.

You could theoretically ingest it by eating tainted meat. The more likely explanation for Contador's little ooopsie is that it was a ghost positive. That is, Alberto was glowing when he had a pint withdrawn, and re-infused it in the later stages of the Tour that year. That would explain why only trace amounts were found.

They can also detect plastic particulates from blood bags now, too.

I haven't got around to reading that yet, but the reviews look good.

Yes, I'm mixing it up with the plasticizer I believe he also was accused of testing positive for.

If you follow cycling the Hamilton book is interesting. I think I read the entire book on two flights, it's not deep material.

What's astonishing is that even if some of the book isn't accurate the rest is still pretty crazy and from what we've seen in the USADA report is likely accurate.
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According to what I've read, the co-author only included thing that he could verify independently of Hamilton.

Going back to that 25 km finishing time trial in 1989, LeMond made some tactical decisions that gave him the win, independently of the extraordinary effort. He decided that he wouldn't get his interval splits from his team car, preferring to just ride blind. The course was primarily downhill, and while it was downwind, there was also a quartering tail wind. So he decided to only have a solid disc wheel on the rear, keeping a conventional spoked wheel on the front, which he thought would be more stable in that cross wind. He also fitted his bike with aero bars. Fignon's team lodged a grievance, but the governing body approved their use. Instead of adding aero bars himself, Fignon rode with conventional drop bars. He also had a solid disc wheel on the front, which might have resulted in him expending more effort in holding a line. LeMond also wore an aero helmet, while Fignon rode bare headed. Fignon had long hair and tied it into a ponytail. Although I don't put much stock in the theory, some pundits claim that it added enough drag to affect the outcome.

If picture is worth 1000 words, this one is an encyclopedia. You can see how devastated Fignon was at his loss.

Attachment 54740

the lance armstrong story is of a guy who against all odds beat cancer and then to take it even further became an amazing athlete and win more TDF races than anyone. he was the best of the best. Thats what 99% of the Americans walking around believed and the story they knew. its all that I knew about the guy but it was a story I loved. The guy was a f'in hero. Many of you said - everyone knew he was doping - thats crap, average people that knew of armsotrong had no idea. They, like me only knew lance the hero. Lance the hero is what propelled livestrong, its what enabled his charity and all the branding. Period - lance the hero.
Well, lance the hero is a fraud, he won by cheating. he is just a guy that beat cancer, many do. they dont create a story for themselves and lie. Lance the hero was the inspiration to people, the whole package, not just the TDF wins, they whole story is what made him special and enabled his success.
Some of Madoffs investors redeemed with a profit and actually made money. Hamas does amazing things for palistinians but also blows up babies. the end DOES NOT justify the means. His lies will hurt more people than any good he created. DOOOOSHH BAAAAG !
Tiger Woods lied to his wife, his business is not mine. Last I checked he is still golfing, no? Lance planning any races anytime soon?

Jimmy,Hamas?
stay out of the sun and drink lots of liquids.

Rumors about Tiger and HGH have been out there for quite a few years, now. Just sayin'. Guy went from being whipcord thin to ripped. ;)

There are many who believe that this whole "confessing" thing is part of a plan to get re-instated. Not in pro cycling, but in triathalon. Lance thinks he can contend for the Ironman title. He may be right. He'd dominate the cycling stage, even in his mid-40s. He was gearing up for a crack at it before all the #^&#^&#^&#^& hit the fan.

He competed in triathalons before he became a pro cyclist.

something to be said about coming out after all this. I think you hit Mike.

i experiment with many performance enhancing Vitamins but don't mess with "whoremoans" because they can cause weird side effects.
I have successfully discovered a formula that turns limp wood to Tigerwood but not petrified wood that hurts for 4 hours.

Does that make me not a hero...i think not...and it's ALL
perfectly legal.

My Cardio Echo exam yesterday indicates that i am right on the money and ahead of the Game. :)

EPO can make your blood the consistency of molasses, and cause a stroke. More than one athlete has died from taking too much. Usually happens in their sleep, when the body's metabolism slows. The same is true of adding extra blood to a full tank.

While it's true that there is no causal link between steroids/HGH and testicular cancer, there is some evidence that excess HGH can speed the metastisis of cancer to other organs. Lance's cancer had spread from his nuts to his brain.

Just finished watching the segment on 60 Minutes dealing with Lance Armstrong. As much as I wanted to think well of the guy, his culpablity is far more pervasive than I ever would have imagined. It's so much more than just an individual athelete trying to beat the odds.

Wheelhouse!

Agreed. He is doing the "I did bad, now how long will it take to forgive me?" routine.

You could include fraud ($90 mil from USPS contract ie. taxpayers), witness tampering, intimidation, and ruining people's careers/lives.

I wonder how much Sheryl Crow knew, and when she knew.... Think that might have been the reason she and Lance split?

I watched the 60 Minutes segment too....if all that chit turns out to be true, he's a SUPER doosh!

some of the stories going around and the secret methods employed like transfusions
while lying down on the floor of the bus are quite remarkable.

Steal a little, and they throw you in jail.
Steal a lot, and they make you king.
Bob Dylan

It was only $30 million that USPS spent to fund the cycling team over the years, and I think that the team was in existence before Lance started winning TdFs. Lance rode for the Discovery team for at least his last yellow jersey. In his two comeback years, 2009/2010, he rode for Astana in 2009, and Radio Shack in 2010.

The $90 million comes from the fact that in a qui tam whisteblower suit, the court can award triple damages.

It well could have precipitated the emotional collapse in Florida, the extended use of it that is.

Not transfusions, but he washed his blood in a dialysis machine everyday!!!!!!!!!!!!:nopics: