Sounds like you've got something that does what you want, so go with it but for future reference a few thoughts.

A standard surface swimmer is weighted to float level with the water line @ 1/2 way up the plug. I purposely build them heavier to get them working slower, but there is a tradeoff in that they tend to get subsurface easier than I'd want.

A standard lip size would have the angle at or a slight amount below the chin of the plug. The further you drop it the more roll (and depth) you get.

The standard lip for a surface swimmer is a mid-slot lip. In your picture it looks like you are using a high slot lip (and pikie lips are all high slot). This can be made to work if the plug is very fat and buoyant and you want a lip to pull the nose down and put the tail up with a fast wag (think surfster) but usually high slots are used to take a plug down and make it stable.

Just as an experiment you might try the same shape with a lefty 1 mid slot (or pikie 2 with a lower hole punched in it), and less belly weight. It would also allow you to use 3/0 or 6x 2/0 hooks.

Another thing to watch out for when testing plugs at this time of year is how high above the water your rod tip is. We tend to test from docks and jetties and the higher rod position often keeps a plug running higher than you get when you fish lower so be sure to drop your rod tip during the retrieve and see what occurs.

Whatever, the first big fish you hit with it will make it all worthwhile.

George thanks for taking the time to elaborate on the lips and process.

The reason/thought process behind this plug is as follows:

I fish a bunch of shallow reef systems, sweeping current with lots of white wash and sub surface plugs are the go to, usually redfins or ss darters fish dead slow, cast into the wash get tight to the plug and slow crank, the pockets are very small and pretty shallow no more than 6 feet, but its about a 50 to 75 yard cast depending on the stage of the tide and how far out you safely get.

So the point of the plug is to cast good (this is one of the better casting metal lips I've built) and be able to dig in/hold in the wash and into the pockets, think this plug will fit that niche great.

Ive done well with eelys there but they lack the needed casting distance to hit the sweet spot.

I barely fish calm water unless its false dawn or sunset, so having a true surface plug isn't called for that much.

I would rather have a plug that will excel in being a subsurface swimmer than I can tune a little to make it stay on top than a true surface swimmer like a danny or surfster. Or one I can just slow crank it for topwater action.

I do have a bunch of lips and weights coming in, and a couple dozen of these bodies turned that havent been drilled out yet for hooks, weights or lip slots. So Ill play around with them and try and find maybe a couple ways to build the same body but have different actions,weights and lips.

If I stick with this lip/weighting it will get 6x 2/0 or 3/0 hooks.

the dock I use for my swim testing is pretty sweet, it extends pretty far out and is level with the water at high tide and sometimes even a little under water, so its a pretty good spot.

Ive made the mistake of testing on a higher perch and then found out the plug is a different animal in the surf.

Numbskull
I really like the looks of that needle, and I can see by the wear you must like it as much as you point out here. Do you fish this sub surface? How is the sink rate and is it a level or slight tail down sink?
Thanks

I checked with Eddy and he kindly allowed me to share the info on his needle.

It is birch, a 7/8" dowel.
6 3/8 long
1.75 oz with 3/0 belly and 4/0 tail siwash
.47 nose
.52 tail
straight taper nose to 1 3/4" back where the plug is .70 wide
curve from 1.75 back to 2.5 back where the plug is .86 wide.
Straight dowel at .86 from 2.5 to 3.5 back, then a slight concave taper to the tail which is .52"
Hook and eyes are at 2 3/4"
Two buck shot weights each side of the hook (3.5g each) one at 2 1/4" one at 3.5".
Small tail weight (5.3 g).

It is weighted similar to the pink one in this picture he posted years ago, although the body shape is more like the smaller green one.

It sinks tail down and wakes along top with a slow retrieve.

This is a really good design. Thank Eddy when it takes you a good fish. Please don't use this info for a commercial venture.

I will thank Eddy and then I will thank you for going out of your way to post! Thank you.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I think you mean Frank, not Fred. close though
I'm not good with names either


good thread George

I'm sure I'll post something when I have something.

Yup, sorry Frank, Fred is too old to remember any of this stuff :uhuh:

Well, today I turned five small Musso swimmers, 4 7/8" and worked on my template for the "Eddy Needle". I turned 2 of the Eddy needles, but didn't have any Birch (neither did the local stores.) So, I turned them in Maple. Will give me something to horse around with until I cal get some Birch.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not the most productive week. Spent more time drilling and weighting than turning.

Did fool with some variants on needle weighting. Obviously the through wire tail weight and belly weight ahead of the hook scheme is the time proven standard, but all this talk about floating needles and gliding needles got me curious so here are a few things I plan to test. Set them up by rigging the plug then moving weights around held on by rubber bands until the plug floated/sank at the attitude I wanted. Can always fine tune varying by hook size.

There is also a clever way to weight needles posted by PM and Bassmaster (I think) by drilling all the way from the tail to the hook hole with a large bore drill, then positioning a through wire weight somewhere in that distance and holding it in place with plastic tubing as a spacer.

That was Dave who showed me. I do think someone showed him if I recall.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I have been thinking a minimal belly weight just to keep the needle hook side down and then weight at the back to get the float angle desired. Probably as small a diameter lead as will work within the length from end to hook or belly weight hole. Trying to keep as much weight in the back half for casting, but evenly distributed in the back half. Just a theory so far. Plus the selection of lead diameter is a bit limited. Smallest I am seeing is .22 inch diameter, and I would probably like to go smaller for some I am messing around with. They are only about 1/2" OD. Like a Boone needle, only heavier and thru wired and with much better hooks. Might resort to wound lead strips or wound lead wire if need be.

Bob, if you look at George's pics of his and Tagger's, I think you will see more weight forward than you are leaning towards. When I went heavily tail weighted, they floated almost vertically, which did not work for my needle needs, as it is a sloooowwwww retrieve.

Maybe the belly weight forward of the hook then, and shorten the tail weight a bit with the spacer. Time to experiment with water and dome poorly drilled "sticks".

Flap built some "floaters" as he called them that were just tail weighted and floated vertically with the nose just out of the water. They would straighten right out and wake as he retrieved them. They were very small by my standards but I saw him take a #40 fish with one.

I'm curious to see one of Dave's (Surf Asylum) glide needles and see what he is on to there.

Likewise I set one of the ones I showed to float nearly level with the tail slightly down. My idea is to try barely moving it/dead drifting it on nights with awful fire.

I had pretty good luck with a small needle I made a few years ago and like usual never really used it much till last fall. I only belly wgt it with 3 belly wgts. I made it out of maple. I used the .240 dia. lead shot. 1 in front of hook and 2 behind spaced out. It sank really slow and horizontal. I fished it really slow in a good current and I enjoyed it a lot. I am going to make some more this winter and intend to really give it a good work out this coming year.

Bob I can help you out with a smaller dia. tail wgt. around .187 but it has a .050 dia h thru hole so you will have to use a small thru wire. domn't know if that is something you want to use.

Here is what George was talking about as far as using plastic to adjust the tail wgts.

I am also going to give this longer skinny needle, 2nd from bottom, a better work out this year too. I like the skinnyness of this where i fish with all the sandeels in residence. This was a bitch to make with the tru drilling on the small dia. and it being maple. It was patterned off a shorter Stezko senior one I borrowed from Capesams which I copied to exact dimensions, the bottom one. From there I stretched it out and kept it skinny with same retaliative shape which appealed to me.
Funny how each year I go into this plug building thing with the intent of fishing a specific type lure more in the up coming year. This year it is needles.

Thanks Paul. I have some skinny wire that I got from Slip to use on these. Should fit the smaller hole OK. Bob

Bob if you need thinner wire I have rolls of Malin wire in varies sizes.

Anderson's flat glide is amazing, when fish wouldn't hit anything they would crush the flat glide.

I have one that's beat up and and plan on seeing if I can make a clone of it. And a bigger version that sinks the same way but faster.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Here are the Eddy Needles next to the 4 7/8" Musso Swmmers and 7" Dannys. I should be swimming these Needles in a few weeks, can't wait to give them a try.

I also turned three 7 1/4" A40s, but I have to wait for some lips to arive in the mail before I drill them.

Thanks Chef. I will let you know as things develop.

Fat little Musso's. Look a lot like the ones he made for himself.

Yeah George, like Flap did. Maybe push along at a bit of an angle, not completely flat out at a slow retreive.

Probably look a little fatter in the pic than they are. They are widest at the hook at 1.17. I am also going to make some around 6".
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Got out today and tested a few things I was thinking about for my challenge swap plugs. These were what I brought with me.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps45adfef2.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps563d99f6.jpg

The top two are plugs I have made before with a slight tweak in body shape. I just wanted to see what happened if I swapped weight and hook holes. I liked it with the weight forward of the hook but the other way makes it hunt more and would probably make a good darter. I may make a few of both.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps99f70843.jpg

Next one I had to bend down the line tie and switched the back treble out from a 3/0 to a 2/0 but swam OK on top and would go deeper on a faster retrieve. Still need to mess with this one a bit more.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps363f59cd.jpg

The next one is the Nike'ish looking one. I was surprised at this one. It had an extremely tight wiggle but was very hard to start. Almost had to snap it to get it under and even then would only get going once the entire plug was subsurface. May try adding a slightly larger metal lip on top of the lower face. Back to the drawing board for this one.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps815c5d19.jpg

And finally the bottom one. Very happy with this one. I didn't have high hopes for this but liked it a lot.




I copied an Arcadia Reef popper. I tried some detail carving for the first time. Lots to learn there. Overall I was very pleased the way it came out. Sits with about half the mouth out of the water. Just need to figure out how I want to paint it.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps1ad308a8.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...psf9cf8482.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps88bc2028.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps1cc130cd.jpg

Ted did you try turning the line tie on those big eyed lipless swimmers on the horizontal instead of vertical? Might be able to better adjust the swim depth that way on those? Just a thought! I made the same type of ;ipless and had more options with adjustment that way! They all look great by the way! Love your work!
:uhuh:

I have not with this type of plug. I have done it with some other stuff like some hand carved stuff and you do get a lot more "tunability". I will give that a try on these before I make any more changes.

Awesome, inventive, and unique.

I'm confused though. The last swimmer you show in your hand looks like a Nike (or even more like a FW plug called the bearcat) to me. Is that the one you liked or the one that wouldn't swim for you?

I think I forgot a pic in there. It is the bottom one in the second pic. The one in my hand is the the one I was having trouble with.

The one you liked looks like a skinny musso lipless. Some things on the original that helped are making the face a touch wider than the body and lowering (or bending) the line tie a touch.

The one that struggled looks like a large Nike, which I have trouble getting to swim other than in current (makes sense since he built it for the canal). The next size down nike, like Paul reproduced, is a better still water swimmer (bigger face).

The popper is the nutz. Was it an offcenter turning or "hand carve"?

Have not decided on what I will be making shortly! Must finish cleaning basement so I can move a bunch of crap out of my shop TO the basement! Still have a few unfinished CCBC darters to finish.

The popper is handcarved but unlike anything Ive done before. All the stuff I've handcarved before was just a profile cutout then a topdown view cutout. Kind of easy and nothing over complicated. This one has for lack of a better term, compound curves. They kind of go in two different directions at once. I had to do some of the roughing out with the drum sander. It all came together rather quickly and evenly to my surprise. I'm almost afraid to paint it because something has to go wrong. The power will go out when I put it on the spinner or something. I was afraid that the way the tail hanger was set up that it would turn the plug over but It sits very nice and is pretty stable. It is weighted on the belly hanger. They say that all their lures [Arcadia Reef] are hand made from wood. I have no idea how they do it and keep everything so consistent.

Here's a few that I just finished.

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...psa1887a6d.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...ps725d07bc.jpg

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/a...psb172b3aa.jpg

Elegant seems the best word for those.

Greek, those are some cool looking plugs, and the finished ones look like some reel fishy plugs. Making me want to get back in the workshop!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Great looking plugs, well done.

Ted, your paint blending is incredible, especially on the herring paint! Love the stainless lips you make!

Finished epoxy on the Conrad Jrs. Sit in the water with the back poking out, water line above lip slot and above the rear wire hole. That plug is white pine w/ 9 gram belly weight. Time to swim the finish product.
Just spun a Conrod Jr w/ soft maple. Comparable body weight sans weight and hardware 46gr. maple/ 32gr. pine. did a float test w/ 3/0 & 2/0 hooks (3). Sank head first with 9 gr. belly weight. Sank less w/5gr.belly weight. Floated perfect w/o any weight. Plug weighed bare soft maple w/3-3/0 hooks 2.6oz/ Weight w/Pine finished paint & epoxy w/3-3/0 hks. 2.3oz.
3/0 marry easy (cut), 2/0 OK. I rather 3/0. What hooks usually go with this plug? Any reason not to use a dressed siwash? 5/0 or /6/0.
Plug swap plugs; 1 finished, waiting on color response on other.

Definitely try one with more weight. Probably another 5-7 grams. Your's sounds more like it is set up as a surface swimmer.

They work well if they float level with the back just barely out of the water (the tail will be well below the surface). Your plug will swim fine, but it will not get as deep as one weighted more heavily, it will also require a faster retrieve to fight its buoyancy and stay down. Most importantly (I think) it will not suspend as well when you pause it......and that is when the plug gets hit the most often in my experience.

I've done little this week and am working this weekend :sad: so I've got little to offer this week.

George the belly weight hole was taken off PM's drawing. With the hooks it's barely out of the water. adding more may make it sink? The maple version actually sinks head first w/9gr. granted the stock alone is approx 14 gr. heavier. I try to swim this week and get back w/results. Thanks

Sorry, if it is barely floating it is perfect already.

I did speak with a guy who floated a bunch of originals for me when I was first trying to resurrect these plugs. He mentioned that some of his Pichneys floated head down and there was a lot of variation among the plugs he floated. I've not tried one set up as such, however. Guys also talked about upsizing the front hook (which would pul the head down) on the Jr version almost as if it was the norm to do it.

Sanded and primed a bunch of stuff on Friday night.

Those torpedoes, needles, some odds and ends that I never finished and some plugs that I scored from g2h that came with the lathe.

Hopefully will be using Paul's carbide cutter tomorrow on some Saltys ayc I bought. 1.75" stuff, going to make some Ccbc surfsters and some big pikies with it and maybe some of those early pichney giant atom 40s

Need to figure out a cheap and easy spray booth, work area doesn't have any windows, so could be a problem.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device