I've stated major issues where I side with liberals - death penalty, gay marriage. I can think for myself just fine.

When was the last time Spence disagreed with the Dems on a major policy issue. Have fun with that one, Spence?

Yo, Spence! Did Hilary lie about getting shot at? Can you concede that? Come on, show us all how objective and independent you are. Now go hide under your bed until you think of how to dodge.

When Clinton lied, no one died ;)
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What does it matter?
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It doesn't. We all line to have meaningless debates. Seriously. :hihi:
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Once again,this thread is exhibit A that Jim is American Taliban or the latest incarnation thereof.
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Based on what, exactly? Because I'm anti-abortion?

The Taliban think it's OK to slaughter innocent people for their own benefit.

Which side in the abortion debate most resembles the Taliban? Well, the vast majority of abortions are selected by healthy women who freely chose to have consensual sex. They choose to slaughter their unborn (in all of nature, you cannot find a more perfect example of innocence than an unborn child) for their own convenience. I am opposed to that slaughter.

I can therefore make a very compelling case, that rabidly pro-abortion folks, are the ones behaving barbaric like the Taliban.

Have fun figuring out a way to make that wrong.

No?

I assume you are referring to Bush, who was wrong, but didn't lie. But never mind about that. If Bush lied, so did Hilary, because she was positive that Saddam had WMDs, and used that as justification for her vote to invade Iraq. She voted to invade because of the threat of WMDs in Iraq. So if Bush lied, and if you say his lies caused deaths, how can you possibly not make the same charge against then-Senator Hilary Clinton?

I did agree with what you said about abortions following rape, that is a lot different than choosing an abortion because one doesn't want to deal with the significant, yet natural and usually safe, ramifications of being pregnant. It's abortions that are done purely for convenience, that most on my side are opposed to.

Planned Parenthood was founded by a fascist racist named Margaret Sanger, who was committed to the extermination of blacks. That is irrefutable fact. Some of her lovely quotes can be seen here.

http://www.dianedew.com/sanger.htm

Hilary Clinton has said she admires Margaret Sanger. Nice.

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblog...y_her_prai.asp

A quote from Hilary upon receiving the Margaret Sanger award..."I admire Margaret Sanger enormously, her courage, her tenacity, her vision "

You cannot make that up. And Clinton, if nominated, will receive 90% of the black vote.

From the article, Sanger (again, who Hilary admires enormously) aid this about blacks..."...human weeds,' 'reckless breeders,' 'spawning... human beings who never should have been born." Yes, very admirable, isn't it?

So it's OK to lie as long as no one get's killed now??
Is that what we have come to as a country?
Lying is altering truth and reality and therefore nothing real gets done.
Karma.

Jim, if you'd do just a teeny bit of checking your sources you'd quickly realize just how bad they are.

How about once, instead of lobbing a vague insult and scuttling off, you tell me where I'm wrong. I'll be blunt to make it clear for you. Do you deny Margaret Sanger was a loathsome racist who hated blacks? Do you have any evidence to suggest that she did not say the things that are attributed to her in the link I provided? I have never, not once, herd anyone deny she was a racist. My hunch is that because Hilary said she admired her, you need to make sure there's nothing improper, even if it means denying irrefutable fact.

How come you won't answer my question about Hilary lying about the sniper attack?

If you'd cozy up to the google you'd quickly see most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context. She did have an odd relationship with the eugenics crowd at one time, but that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women.

:horse:

"most of those quotes aren't hers or are taken out of context"

Out of curiosity, in what context are any of those quotes not racist?

"that doesn't discount the groundbreaking work she did for women."

Hitler really did a lot to improve the economy in Germany. We judge someone based on everything they do, not just the good stuff.

Your refusal to concede Hilary lied, tells us all we need to know, Spence. Your conscious mind will not allow you to criticize her, you just can't.

Consider that every political front runner trying to get elected lies. Campaign promises that are never met will equate to a lie.
Hillary lied, but I'm sure you can track every candidate down to a few lies.

Lies are really convenient to use agianst someone you don't like, but you should be aware of those who you do like and their lies as well
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Jim is a weird dude whose extremism has probably put him on more than one watch list. He is passionate, but yet screams for pity. My guess is he was picked on in school. Good Luck Jim, I hope to hug you some day if Detbutch lets me. I feel you could really need it.
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Good point, lies are wrong on both sides.

"Jim is a weird dude "

I'm a Catholic and a marine and an actuary, who asked you to support your accusation that I am an American Taliban. Instead of admitting the absurdity of your accusation, you say I'm weird that I didn't accept your slander.

"extremism"

I love everyone and think life is too sacred to be snuffed out because it's convenient. If that's extremist to you, then maybe one of us is weird.

"screams for pity"

No, clobbering you in a discussion isn't the same as a cry for help.

"guess is he was picked on in school"

Wrong as usual. There was one bully in 8th grade though...wonder what happened to him.

I've had nothing but good luck. I think everyone deserves to be as lucky as I have been.

Yes, it is a good point. But I couldn't vote for someone who lied to make themselves look to improve their image, as Hillary did, anymore then I could vote for someone who lied about serving the military in fire fights when they were sitting at a desk some place safe.

Jim, you are a liar. This post proves it. Especially the weird part. I really want to stick my tongue down your throat and hug you til you pee yourself.
Seriously Jim, you strike me as a John Earl type. He was another friendly Catholic priest with good intentions like yours and the rest of your Army of God brethren. They also love everyone. Except those who disagree with them. I am sure he is normal in your world. Keep clobbering slugger,especially 8th graders.
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I think of liars as those who routinely, purposefully and knowingly, confidently misrepresent the truth....they are emboldened by the fact that they are either unchallenged or supported and excused by minions who prefer their comfortable lies over the uncomfortable truth and they have the uncanny ability to dismiss anything that disagrees with their worldview....this would include much of the political class that Eben mentioned as we seem to have allowed this to be come acceptable behaviour from those that we elect as well as many in the media and elsewhere.

This argument/thread has jumped off the tracks. All it has proven is what we already knew. Spence is an apologist, Eben is conflicted and Jim is trying to convert people.

Get this in your heads Hilary will not be prosecuted she will probably be the Dem Nominee for president. She is divisive and she has won the money vote thus far. get used to it. The presidential election is akin to the WWE pure entertainment.
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Bernie sanders will be the DEM nominee
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Never going to happen the DNC recognizes more than we do that while people in our area of the country and the left coast can look past the "socialist" label most of the states that don't touch salt water will not be able to see past that. If he runs independent he will only pull votes from the nominated candidate that will be Clinton. She is a criminal but they all are
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We shall see...
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http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7937906
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Keep this thread for your derailment and roll back the personal attacks

I am fascinated to see how that's going to play out. Hilary is still polling ahead of Bernie, I believe, in most places (not New Hampshire, but that's his backyard).

If it looks like Bernie is a real threat, then someone else will run - Biden, Gore, or Kerry. I don't think the DNC can let it be Bernie Sanders, that might be the best thing that could happen to the GOP.

I'll vote for Bernie if he promises to make all colleges and universities free, I have three that need to go soon and I want to raise taxes on Spence to pay for it....that wasn't a personal attack was it?

I don't think it's that important that Bernie actually gets the nomination. What the Dems need now are rational voices that set the tone for the election...even with high negatives Hillary will still have a good shot at winning if the debate is about issues and not her.

It will always be about Hillary, as she has character faults and
can't be trusted. One current pole states 57% of those polled
don't trust her; She is just a tiring old Politician.
The country is looking for a new direction.

Hey you can always get behind the new guy who's shining moment was reciting green eggs and ham...I mean that is some brilliant thinking!
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fixed it for "context"....i hope we have not sunk this low as a country

we don't elect issues, we elect people, electing a dirtbag and/or liar because they tell you that they support your issue puts a dirtbag and/or liar in a place of power to be a dirtbag and liar on a greater scale....that is stupid....you have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think that Hillary has any business being anywhere near the Whitehouse at this point

Totally agreed
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Funny, she's beating nearly every GOP contender in the Iowa polls which isn't exactly liberal territory.

I guess those Iowans must be pretty deaf, dumb and blind.

Just comes to show what a train wreck the GOP has become.
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you've got more than a dozen choices and some "impressive resumes" in the field...still split many ways whereas the dems have essentially 2 and one should be in jail...

that she still polls well anywhere and that some revel in the fact that she does, just comes to show what a remarkably sad state our nation is in....

That is true as well.
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if you cozy up to google you'll find she was a detestable human being...a Progressive and eugenist


these quotes are hers...hard to take them out of context...and she was prolific with her opinions so it's not hard to pin her down

In her 1922 book The Pivot of Civilization, Sanger wrote: The lack of balance between the birth-rate of the “unfit” and the “fit” [is] admittedly the greatest present menace to the civilization. . . . The example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit, and therefore less fertile, parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem to-day is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Sanger again: Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenists [sic] have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations – unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities.

Sounds on point to me. I certainly would want a feeble minded yet sexually active person to have access to free birth control. Wouldn't you scott ?
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maybe a little more...these folks Eben, found any physical or mental "handicap" and various traits to be a "defect", being in poverty is mentioned... they were interested in breeding out of society and eliminating what they considered lesser qualities as they determined them to be ..."dysgenic" breeding versus selective....very high-minded academic elitist stuff


"As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Birth Control is not advanced as a panacea by which past and present evils of dysgenic breeding can be magically eliminated. Possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be forced upon society if it continues complacently to encourage the chance and chaotic breeding that has resulted from our stupidly cruel sentimentalism.

But to prevent the repetition, to effect the salvation of the generations of the future–nay of the generations of today–our greatest need is first of all the ability to face the situation without flinching, and to cooperate in the formation of a code of sexual ethics based upon a thorough biological and psychological understanding of human nature; and then to answer the questions and the needs of the people with all the intelligence and honesty at our command. If we can summon the bravery to do this, we shall best be serving the true interests of Eugenics, because our work will then have a practical and pragmatic value."