Multiple times, you said the successes provided by the Surge would not last. Multiple times, I asked you to support that. Every single time, you dodged.

Iraq is far worse off now, than it was when he took office. The reason, is that he pulled out the troops before the country was prepared for that. It's possible that Iraq would never have been ready, that it would have descended to this inevitably. That's pure speculation. What we know for sure, is that tons of people predicted that pulling out the troops was going to lead to disaster. Obama said they were wrong. But they were right, and Obama was wrong. Spin that any way you want, make wild, speculative, baseless claims that it would have been worse if we had left troops there. But the facts are the facts.

Jim, do you notice the contradictory situational analyses by leftists. On the one hand they maintain that if we had not invaded Iraq, Isis and all the upheaval in the Middle East would not have happened. Yet, on the other hand, the success of the surge was not a stabilizing factor against upheaval and the withdrawal of troops was not a cause of it No, no . . . the upheaval was going to happen anyway. Maintaining troop presence would not stop it, and removing that presence was not a cause of it.

If all that was inevitable, what did invading Iraq have to do with it?

Is there finally a subtle admission that the Middle East has been heading in this direction for a long time. Well before the Iraq War. I recall even as far back as the 1970's the prediction that the Middle East was warming to the boiling point which would start WW3.

But the history of war is such that if war is taken to all out victory actual change is forced to occur. And, perhaps, the Iraq War, if expanded to an all out one, when the West was much stronger and more unified, there could have been a destruction of those elements that are now becoming a much larger threat than imagined by little minds, and are coalescing with or aided by larger anti-Western powers like China and Russia.

But the narrative can't go quite that far. It must somehow make the Iraq war not a corrective attempt to stop what was brewing, but the cause of it. And yet maintain that withdrawing from Iraq did not satisfy the trouble makers who would take advantage of the power vacuum created by the removal of Saddam to become stronger.

But if Saddam was thwarting the "extremists" rise to power, why would not an even stronger force such as the U.S. military stop it. No, somehow it was all inevitable. But not inevitable enough to occur without the U.S. toppling of Saddam.

The rise of the so-called "extremists" was growing, gathering power and gaining leaders who expanded operations and enlistments for decades. The extremists were getting bigger and more influential in the 1990's to the point of becoming an ideological force that needed attention and elimination. And Saddam was not stopping that growth. Nor were the other Islamic States.

So the U.S. presence was, as the narrative now goes, on the one hand, a minor pause in the growing jihad which was going to happen whether we stayed or not, and on the other hand, the cause of it.

Right.

"Jim, do you notice the contradictory situational analyses by leftists"

Oh, I notice it, and can never quite get used to it or understand it. Protect The Narrative at all costs, no matter how ridiculous the argument, even if it means denying that the word "hating" means what exactly every human older than 5 years old, knows that it means.

President Obama has invited the Pope to the White House. Included in the list of fellow invited guests is a pair of gay church critics; a nun whose views are so far outside of Catholic orthodoxy that she has been banned from ministry by the Vatican; a transgender activist; and the first openly gay Episcopalian bishop.

Missing from the list: the Little Sisters of the Poor, and other authentically Catholic personalities. The President deliberately invited people who not only reject the teachings of the Church but who are likely to get in the Pope's face. An Ivy League degree is no substitute for class.

http://www.catholicleague.org/obama-...igious-rebels/

Maybe he will wash their feet?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The Vatican is protesting the guest list, as they should. Not that the Pope shouldn't be expected to have to engage others, but you don't invite someone to the White House for the specific purpose of ambushing him, either. But that's Obama's style with those who disagree with him. A world-class d*ck.

Would Obama invite the Dali Lama, and put him at a table with a bunch of Maoist activists? I don't think so.

I would hope he thinks it is a good time to embrace and have civil discourse with those who have different perspectives. Is the pope afraid of the idea that there are some folks out there who have differing points of view. I feel this is a great opportunity to explain his thought process and educate those who are not lemmings.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Just my opinion, but I think Obama has more in common with Mao than with the Dali Lama. And if the latter chose to visit Obama's house, he should expect some guests who have Maoist leaning ideas on what government is about.

Yes, homosexual activists, as a group, are very open-minded when it comes to listening to the opposition.

I'm all for discussion. Serving him up for an ambush, is something else. We will see what takes place, hopefully the liberals can, for once, display a speck of the inclusion and tolerance that they always demand for themselves, but rarely extent to others, Catholics in particular.

All that's missing from the guest list is a few lions.

Not for nothing but you can't expect softballs as a pope. With big titles you are always expected to have big responsibilities. If he is intimidated to explain the church's outlook to this group then perhaps he is the wrong man for the job. Popes are chosen for a lot of reasons, I am assuming that d#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&g the tough questions is not one of these reasons. You act as though he has something to hide or be ashamed of,very perplexing outlook.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not for nothing, I said debate is good. I didn't say anyone should expect softballs. But I don't expect Obama to surround the Pope with nothing but people who reject and mock everything to which he has dedicated his life, either. Civil discourse is good. That's not what Obama has a penchant for. Ask the Supreme Court how the felt about the State of The Union when he attacked them in a forum where they had no ability to respond.

That's what this guy does. He has zero tolerance for anyone who doesn't bow down and kiss his ring.

"when he has time to gather excuses".

Yes, we can only hope that his fellow guests are as open-minded and tolerant as you are, Sea Dangles.

"You act as though he has something to hide or be ashamed of, very perplexing outlook."

Again, since I keep saying debate is healthy, I'm curious to know how you arrived at that conclusion. Dangles ,respectful debate against these people is no challenge whatsoever, because the Pope is holding all the cards. But liberals aren't known for respectful debate on these issues. Calling Catholics a bunch of pedophiles who don't care about women and who hate homosexuals, isn't exactly engaging in open debate. As evidenced by your comment that he can only offer "excuses", not that he can offer differing opinions that may not be for everyone, but that make perfect sense to him.

The reason your side immediately descends to these tactics on these issues, is that it's impossible to defend these positions and keep your integrity. Because the positions are devoid of integrity. It's then a lot easier to attack the person whose positions are obviously based on love and empathy. God forbid you admit the man stands for generosity and compassion and treat him with the respect he therefore deserves.

it's not how you should treat a guest visiting in good will you but this is hardly surprising from the least presidential president in our nation's history .... I'm not a big fan of this Pope but I wonder if all of the people who clamor that Obama be respected because of his high office despite his own lack of respect for the office and lack of respect that he's shows those with whom he disagrees, would also feel that Obama owes the Pope a bit of respect regarding his high office, they seem rather, to be reveling in the Obama putting the Pope in a position that he might prefer to not be put in?...just another in a long line of cheap shots from an artist

I thought this brilliant, from the thoughts of another Pope who was addressing contraception but the thought widely applies...

He held that they were two sides of the same coin(sexual revolution’s crowning achievement — the separation of sexual expression from the generation of life)— that the crisis of modernity was about the degradation of the human person. Whenever a person is reduced to an object to use — whether by a boss, a nation, a boyfriend, or a spouse — the unique dignity of that person is being eroded, even if it’s with his or her own consent. This doesn’t make much sense to moderns, who believe that consent is the only criterion of decision-making. But even desirable ends don’t justify dubious means to get there, says the Church.


we certainly live in an ends justifies the means culture

I still want to know why you describe this as an ambush. There is no surprise here and I am sure the pope loves these people despite the differing philosophies. Seems like a great opportunity for the pope to educate and spread the good word.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Obama is surrounding the Pope with activists who hate everything that the Pope stands for. We don't always agree Dangles, but you're smart, come on.

If Obama invited Barbara Streisand as a guest of honor, would he sit her at a table with Tea Party activists and Ann Coulter? No, he wouldn't. This is the same as that, except the Pope will win any debate, because as I said, he is holding all the cards.

agreed...it's what Jesus would do

The pope would be wise to hire Jim as his apologist/ PR man

Just as O would hire Spence

Match made in hades
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Again,how is this an ambush? Please answer Jim,they are your words.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Comparing a Pope defender to an Obama defender, yeah, that's apples to apples. I've also said I think my church is wrong on gay marriage, which I think shows clearly that I'm not a blind Catholic apologist. Again with the personal digs, rather than discussing issues.

Dangles, this is a White House visit, not a debate on gay marriage or abortion. The Pope (the invited guest) is being surrounded by militant activists who espies that which the man has dedicated his entire life to. As Scott said, it's clearly a cheap shot, if you don't see it that way, you have that right. I don't think any other President in my lifetime would do anything like it, but we know that normal rules of decency don't apply to Obama.

Maybe it will be cordial. For sure, I am speculating, but as always, my speculations are based on an honest, rational examination of actual empirical evidence, the overwhelming majority of which suggests that liberal activists can't stand Catholicism, and they aren't exactly diplomatic about conveying that. Are there any pro-Catholic zealots there to balance out the guest list?

Dangles. let's be clear. This event isn't a debate about gay marriage or abortion. It is, in the words of Obama, a "welcome ceremony" for the Pope. When Obama has a welcome ceremony for Al Sharpton, does he invite the Klan?

All kinds of guests, invited by the White House, who specifically oppose Catholic views on gay marriage, abortion, and transgender issues. The few Catholics that are known to have been invited, are folks who actually support abortion and contraception, and have been ordered by the Vatican to knock it off. Did the White House invite any militant, zealot, pro-Catholic warriors to this "welcome ceremony?

It's well within Obama's toolbox to use a "welcome ceremony" to attack the Pope over issues that make liberals look, well, barbaric.

Dangles. Let's be clear. There are about 15,000 people invited to this event including a few transgenders, a gay bishop and a nun the Vatican doesn't really like.

Now I'm not sure what Obama is thinking inviting a bishop and a nun to meet the Pope, but if this isn't the worst example of skullduggery then what is it? The Pope is old and frail, he can't take this. What are we trying to prove by inviting US Christians to something like this?

It's a trap.

They aren't merely Christians Spence, many of them are rabidly anti-Catholic. That's what is questionable judgment for a "welcome ceremony" for a Pope.

How many true, devout Catholics did Obama invite? If he invited none, but several rabid anti-Catholics, then clearly he has an agenda here.

As I said, this isn't a gathering for a debate, or for an episode of "Crossfire". This is a "welcome ceremony" for a Pope, and it seems like Obama is trying to make him feel less-than-welcome. Very par for the course, for this divisive jerk.

You have no clue how many devout Catholics were invited. You're just milking a knee jerk reaction to reading something online because you hate the President.

Dangles, nailed it. He has you in a figure four...

You're right, I don't know, which is why I asked. But here's what I do know Spence...if I was hosting a "welcome ceremony" for someone who dedicated their entire life to any cause, I wouldn't invite a single person who was militantly undermining that cause. Would you?

Please explain how a few transgendered people, a gay bishop and a nun who the Vatican doesn't like because she doesn't speak out against abortion enough is "militantly undermining" any cause.

Can I answer that question with a question? Why do these people want to be at a welcome ceremony for the Pope, do you suppose?

There's a time and place for rigorous debate. I don't think a "welcome ceremony" is the place to debate (or attack) what the Pope holds dear. Has Obama invited anyone who got free food at a Catholic food bank, free medical care at a Catholic hospital, or free lodging at a Catholic shelter? I don't know.

Spence, maybe you'd invite Ann Coulter to a welcome ceremony for Caitlyn/Bruce Jenner, but I wouldn't. Even if Coulter didn't say a word, I doubt her presence would make Jenner feel welcome, which is the whole point of welcome ceremony, isn't it?

Perhaps because they're Christian and it's kind of cool to meet the Pope?

Jim, it's all fake outrage...

When Dangles releases you from his choke lock, you should read this...some ammo for your next hissy fit.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...679_story.html

So...did you hear the Pats won? I am still waiting for Jim to explain how this is an ambush. He is an actuary and always proves himself to the penny.

Yet he stil had yet to come up for an explanation for his misguided diatribe. Very uncharacteristic for a person who thinks he is as smarts he thinks he is........

Still waiting....ambush?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Please tell your pope to study for the hard questions he is supposed to have all the cards to answer.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

I guess you're not as bright as I always thought, because (1) it's common sense, and (2) I explained it several times. When you invite one of the gentlest souls on the planet, and your intent (speculating here) is to surround him by a bunch of foaming-at-the-mouth fanatics who despise everything he stands for, then that's an ambush. When the mob will say the most vile hateful things, and the one guy cannot respond that way because he's too gentle, that's an academic ambush. Is that really going too fast for you?

Dangles, there isn't a single hard, even challenging, question liberals can ask him.

Why do you think a human life is worth more than a woman's right to self-centered convenience?

Why do you think that the only union that can produce life, is different than a union between 2 people of the same sex? In other words, why do you think it's OK to say that different things are, in fact, different?

Why do you cling to the antiquated notion that sex is supposed to be more meaningful than a handshake? Casual sex never hurt anybody, right?

Why is it important to take care of the sick and the poor?

What's the value in a religion that teaches people about service and love, makes devotees feel like there is a real purpose to life, and that they are never, ever alone?

Yeah, he needs to study on those, all right, those are real head-scratchers.

So obviously you have no idea what an ambush actually is
But there is good news

The pope has all the answers and will come out smelling like....roses
Hurrah! For Jimmy
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

PS
I am assuming the pope has more eloquence than you do
Otherwise
Not good
Perhaps you should google the definition of ambush so you can stop insulting your pope.
[










iPhone/Mobile device[/i]

Why do your priests bone altar boys and go to you for refuge?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Why not let Rev Andrew McCormack explain or any of the other 3400 defrocked priests in the last 10 years?

Pedophiles
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

That's a pertinent point. The Church has much to answer for in the way they handled that sickening scandal. It was a very small number of bishops in the US who covered that up, and we are (too slowly for me) rooting them out. It's absolutely fair the the Pope should speak to victims of the abuse to understand the damage first-hand.

Fair enough?

Now, what about all our neighbors across New England who got free food last night at a Catholic food bank, or free medical care at a Catholic Hospital, or a free bed at a Catholic homeless shelter? Does that mean anything to you at all?

Wow... I was away from this all weekend. It sure divested from the Iraq stuff earlier...

I looked back at the thread; I think we could go around and around re: the long-term good of the surge and stability of Iraq and neither would change opinions.

What I am having a harder time with, is the idea that you, who was in Iraq (I think you said there, and not Afghanistan), thinks we should get engaged in Syria. Syria, to me, is more like Iran than Iraq, and, is NOT a country to get into w/o going whole hog, and then likely would require a long-term occupation/'residual force'. To me, without fully proportional financial and troop support from other allies, ME and Europe, is madness, and even then is probably not one we want to be involved in... I am not doubting the evil of Assad, but I don't think a US led groundwar is the answer here.

You make good points, and I'm no expert on high-level strategy. In my opinion (I could be wrong), we're going to need to deal with it eventually. Jimmy Carter tried the policy of "put your head in the sand, wring your hands, and hope the problem goes away", but that doesn't always work. I agree that we need big-time buy-in from a lot of other countries.

Between our economic issues, and what's happening in that part of the world, it's getting downright scary.