Spence, your debate tactic, again, dissolves into questions that add nothing to subject, yet turn the discussion toward impasse with little to be accomplished. You are as polished as our elected politicians that work so effectively for the common good.......

Ok, by that logic how many of the 30k gun deaths are year were accidents? Hint, it's posted above.

You're splitting hairs...it's not relevant to the point at hand.

To be fair.... there were some GMs and Toyotas that would fit that bill.....

And again. How many would happen if the person didn't initiate it? Your argument is deflated, if guns kill people so do cars,busses,airplanes ,hammers, bats etc..
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Lol...ban them too!!! It's for the children !
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It certainly is relevant. Just as a person could commit suicide by dropping a hair dryer in a bath tub, they could use a gun. The shooter in Oregon could have made a bunch of pipe bombs and Molotov cocktails instead of using a gun.
Guns are not the problem. It is the American way of life that is the problem.
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Nice little discussion you have here

since the ball is in gun owners court I'll have to ask, when will non gun owners admit that a gun is a tool?

I don't have any NRA BS , so I won't respond with any

I would have prevented the shooters from getting guns first by voting and electing a government that passed laws with common sense and did not knee jerk react to tragedies, second - the more armed citizens, the better. I'd rather be able to protect myself and my family than have Hajji cut my head off, my brother prevented eminent harm to himself by being armed once and I am glad he had his license to carry because I certainly would not have liked to have been one of 6 carrying him a few days later.

The way the problem is getting worse is, because we have a president who chose to politicize the latest. I think the media should not even name the shooters in these instances, glorifying them makes matters worse and causes myself to consider carrying some protection. There are lots of weirdos out there and I for one do not intend to be a victim.

I hope that answers it.

and I hope anti gun people can admit that a gun is a tool.

30,000 and 95+ % of those are gang bangers

Those 2 statements weren't together in your post.

comparing guns and cars is frequently brought up by gun rights advocates but actually undermines their argument. In my view, we need to treat guns more like cars and if that were done, I think there would be less talking about banning guns.

We require training, licensing and registering of cars (&drivers licenses), seatbelts, airbags, collision avoidance devices, insurance, etc. and as a result deaths by car has decreased tremendously and continues to go down. We have both public and private groups who study ways to make cars safer. Things that congress use to do such as name the gun stores who sold the most guns used in crimes are now prohibited from being done ( by congress. The stores actually changed their sales practices and their sales weren't linked to as much crime). Research dealing with guns has been blocked by the gun lobby.

The majority of gun owners are agreeable to back ground checks, tighter regulations of gun dealers, requirements that guns be stored safely in homes and a 10 year prohibition of owning guns if convicted of violence.
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I got a lot of that from an article by Nicholas Kristof that I just read prior to logging on.

Since 1970 there have been more deaths by guns than in all of our wars. 1.4 million deaths. 60% of those where by suicide. Studies have shown that if a gun was not available, many of those would have been avoided (other studies have shown if you prevent someone from jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge those people don't try again).
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I posted this to spur discussion because I thought the frequency of these incidents was disturbing most people in the US. We are the outliers in the world when it comes to these incidents and we have more guns in peoples hands than other countries.

Yes .. there is always room for improvement on applying the current Laws. Get the NRA to focus on its roots... gun safety and training... not a lobby arm for the Gun industry. You guys are all drinking the kool aid of the gun mfg lobbists not the real sportman that started the NRA.


If you cannot get on board to make it more difficult to procure guns than you have serious blinders on. Even the recent Oregon killer's Dad said he was very surprised that his son was able to get all those firearms legally.

More guns are directly proportional to more deaths no matter whose math you use. Even people who lock their guns in home safes occasionally forget to lock them or just the presence of guns in the house causes activity that leads to violence... this evidence is also well documented.

The current trajectory of violence in the US is the issue.... and more guns is NOT the answer.

I for one would propose that all personal handguns should be stored at Sportsman firing ranges where they are used. Automatic weapons are for military use only and have no business to be sold to civilians.

Stored at clubs ? Sure let's have every criminal keep theirs there too. That's the most ridiculous thing I've heard yet.
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makes perfect sense.....I've always said...the best way to prevent violent gun crime is to lock up the hand guns of law abiding gun owners at shooting ranges...problem solved :heybaby:

also read this today...not sure how accurate but from a pretty reliable writer

"A fully automatic weapon legally owned by a civilian has not been used in a murder in modern history. Those .50-caliber rifles that California was so obsessed about a few years back have, so far as the statistics show, never been used in a murder in that state, though one — one — was among the weapons used in a 1995 murder in Colorado. Ordinary criminals use ordinary guns."

criminals would love that Chris :hs: not happening but I see the point
better background checks would surely help
I am not opposed to making it harder for unfit persons to obtain a gun.

this country has a social problem
education can only go so far
where is the moral compass?
the media whores need to take some accountability here

Andy... you sure have all the answers. I do not believe anything claim...

here is more accurate info on suicides by guns

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/op...smtyp=cur&_r=0

I asked you guys to think and all you do is spout forth the same BS what are your original thoughts to stop the problem.. why not better gun control

At what point do we blame the people for their own actions? Not one response yet.
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The problem is people Chris. Everyone wants to blame something , they should look in the mirror. Funny thing is from my side you're "spouting the the same BS".. I'll openly invite any member here to come along to the range. I'll supply the fun and training . I'd be happy to show anyone how much fun it can be.
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what are your original thoughts?

define better gun control...

your solution is to lock the guns of law abiding citizens in a shooting range....how will that reduce gun crime in Chicago?

Chris,
Would you consider going through the process of getting a license to carry and purchase of a handgun to see what we have already gone through here in Mass? It is not perfect, but they don't hand them out, and I would expect you would be surprised to see how much time it takes to do it all legally. Mass. Ct, NY, and NJ are among the most regulated states in this area.

I'll end with this tonight...in this bat#^&#^&#^&#^& crazy world we live in I seriously hope no one is ever in a situation where they wished someone with a firearm was there, some people choose to call and hope someone with a gun gets there in time. Others choose not to have to but either way its your choice. My choice is not yours to change.
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is this now a suicide issue? if you think reducing or restricting guns will solve suicides there is no evidence of this elsewhere...Japan has twice the suicide rate as the US and guns are scarce there and where they enjoy the lowest gun homicide rate in the world....South Korea has gun-control laws so strict almost all guns are illegal; the few available hunting rifles must be “stored at police stations” when not in use. Handguns are practically non-existent and “advertising guns or ammunition is banned.” But while shooting incidents “are rare,” South Korea has the highest suicide rate in the developed world according to the World Health Organization.

many European nations(Hungary, Poland, France, Belgium, and Austria) with stricter gun control have higher rates and we're on a par with other countries with strict gun control...Australia has seen a drop in suicides that some like to attribute to gun legislation but the drop was occurring for 10 years prior to the 1996 and non-firearm suicides spiked immediately after the buy back..the UK has seen an increase and is on a par with the US despite strict gun laws...someone who is determined to injure themselves or others will find a way...taking away a mode does not curb the intent

Son it might be. One call to a psychologist to give you some head shrinking and he could seem you unfit to own fire arms.
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http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013...ass-shootings/
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first and foremost i am a gun owner, have been most of my life. the thoughts i have concerning guns are my own - not influenced by nra or nobama and co.
my idea of gun control may be in line with some others here.
- tighter gun shop regs, and none of those walk in/walk out with a gun shows.
- must tighter background checks, including mental health and violence issues
-mandatory long jail time for possession of illegal guns- say 5-10 years
-longer jail time for use of illegal guns in criminal activity - say 10-20 years
-if guns are stolen or missing incident must be reported asap
-gun buyback programs in at risk areas for real $ not 50 -100 per, more like 500+ per that will get some peoples attention. the way our govt slings cash that would be minuscule.
- don't eff with the rights of law abiding gun owners. you may need one someday.

out of those 11,208 homicides.....how many of those were actually by the legal owner of the gun....that might be a place to start looking.

I understand, if only those who need it would go see one...me? I'm just perfect!!!:laughs:

Some good points here...

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/04/op...smtyp=cur&_r=0

Good points to you, not to others. We can find contradicting evidence to both sides of our opinions. My opinion is the NY Times is liberal bias trash.

Need to fix the Mental Healthcare System
 

Most of the issues related to the now "gun violence" have some relationship to mental health. How much of it is a result of illegal drugs which are in many cases someone looking for a way out of their own private hell. Good article pasted below.


Chris Harper Mercer, the man who killed nine people in Oregon yesterday, was almost certainly profoundly mentally ill. According to neighbors, Mercer isolated himself from others, communicated largely through the Internet and lived in the basement of his mother’s house in Torrance, California before moving to Oregon.

He was frequently seen wearing camouflage pants and combat boots. And he reportedly left a note at the scene of his rampage yesterday stating he had no girlfriend and no life and would be welcomed in Hell and embraced by the devil.

I certainly never examined Mr. Mercer, but these details, if true, may point to conditions like schizoid personality disorder, Asperberger’s syndrome or even schizophrenia, any of which can dramatically limit the ability to socialize and empathize with others, contribute to feelings of emptiness and isolation and spawn anything from intense depression to paranoid delusions.

Given the fact that Mercer lived for a time with his mother during his adult years, was noticed to be peculiar by neighbors and had acquaintances online, I would venture that more than one person knew he was not well.


If the president had a son like Chris Mercer, believe me, he would not be content to have his ill son live in a country where he could not procure firearms quite as easily. He would want his son’s disorder definitively diagnosed and definitively treated.

I do not know whether he ever got anything like comprehensive help, but it is hard to believe he could have, given what happened Thursday.

Violence of the kind perpetrated by Chris Mercer is always preventable through a combination of psychotherapy, proper medications and hospitalizations when needed.

Period. There is no exception.

But people like Chris Mercer keep falling through the cracks of our shattered, sorry excuse for a mental health care system. This is tragic and unnecessary, because outreach and screening systems could be put in place that would be neither prohibitively expensive, nor an impingement on anyone’s liberty.

One of the hurdles in the way of building a system to prevent killings like those that occurred in Oregon is that politicians like President Obama turn such tragedies into reprehensible calls for gun control, rather than proper calls to rebuild the mental health care system.

Somehow, the uncontrolled psychiatric symptoms of one man should justify, in the president’s mind, curtailing the liberties of all men.

If the president had a son like Chris Mercer, believe me, he would not be content to have his ill son live in a country where he could not procure firearms quite as easily. He would want his son’s disorder definitively diagnosed and definitively treated. That would be, after all, the humane thing and the right thing to do.

Instead, the president, through his utterly absurd public comments after this tragedy, argues for an America where men like Chris Mercer (of which there are many, many thousands who will never hurt a soul) are free to live lives of terrible desperation and suffering in the shadowy basements of suburban homes, lost in delusions and wandering the streets.

Fixing things, for real, is always harder than burying them, whether for convenience or to achieve political gain.

The president’s proposed solution to the rash of mass shootings plaguing our nation, which have been due almost exclusively to mental illness, would be no solution at all.



Dr. Keith Ablow is a psychiatrist and member of the Fox News Medical A-Team.

there are some good points made...and some that aren't. The problem is everybody has that All or Nothing mentality....the answer is in the middle.

..in a society where we drug youth as a substitute to discipline, drug the population as a substitute to coping with life and then force feed graphic violence etc. through every media outlet devaluing human life making death seem routine and often entertaining...not a wonder some flip out....turn on the TV...it's a relentless how-to in how to be a maniac...you reap what you sow ....sadly sometimes

This would be a simple way to implement proper gun control. Create an endorsement on drivers liscense system for gun ownership. To obtain this endorsement, you would have to take a gun safety class. The system is already in place as this would be like getting a motorcycle liscense.
Eliminate gun shows and sales should only happen in gun stores. Simply showing your liscense with the endorsement on it allows you to purchase what you want.

The beauty of this system is that the criminal background check, and your police record can be accessed by the DMV and thus would provide some form of screening.

A gun endorsement would expire every 2 years and would be renewed online by paying a few bucks that would be used to fund the system, much like how the fishing liscense works.
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In MA we already have to take a safety course prior to turning in an application for and FID/LTC.

Again for the cheap seats mass has the most stringent gun laws/ permit issue guidelines in the country
Steps are
1. Attain application for license to carry from police department in which you legally reside
2. Pay to take certified safety course in which u have to safely demonstrate how to handle and fire handgun. Then pass written exam
3. Pay to get passport pictures
4. Submit in writing detailed request and reason for license to carry along with non-refundable fee to local police department
That information is then processed by the ATF and FBI for criminal back ground check( Thats right, the FEDS do the backround check). Upon completion it is returned to the local police department. Then it is ultimarely solely at the descretion of the presiding police chief of the town you leaglly reside in. It is also at the descretion of the police chief weather u are approved for a class A high cApacity/ all lawful purposes permit or a target only permit or denied all together as has happened in many cases. I know that for years carver had a female cheif that outright would not issue any concealed LTCs at all what so ever despite many lawsuits. It was her legal option which she executed. (She is gone and residents are now able to attainnLtCs)
Also in mass there is no difference between purchasing a firearm weather at an established gun shop or at a gun show. Here in mass anytime a legal firearm sale is made the dealer needs to call the atf with all buyer and seller info right there on the spot and wait for approval from the federal ATF before transaction can be completed
Only loop hole in mass that is slowly being closed is private sale from one person to another.

It is tragic that incidents such as this are on the rise in other parts of the country

No amount of legislation will stop or curb those illegally possesing firearms from using them illegally becuase they already dont care about the laws anyway
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Also the NRA has no political representation/ clout in mass. Here we have an organization called G.O.A.L. - gun owners action league that supposedly fights for our rightsbas gun owners here in mass tho not really sure about what they actually accomplish
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Perhaps the answer is here?

http://timelines.latimes.com/deadlie...ting-rampages/

MY god!!!!!

How about ban "gun free" zones and arm the damn campus police!!!Instant fix!!!

We can find billions of dollars to give illegals everything for free but we can't find a goddamn dime to have a cop or well trained security guard at a school to protect our children.

To the guy who started this thread:there's a reason why people like you get lost in a one stalk corn-maze.

Welcome back :hihi:

It's Aspergers Syndrome. I really hope that was just a mistake by a tech writer or web admin...but this guy has a reputation as being a Fox News dope so who knows...