Unless the economy crashes or we have a 9/11 event, I fail to see how the GOP doesn’t pick up senate seats. There are a few democrats up for re election in states that trump won by double digits. It’s just a horrible set of seats that happen to be up for re election, from the democrat perspective. It’s as if the gop hand picked which seats would be up.

As usual, you make an astute point about Bannon. He could screw the whole thing up.

There are several democrat senators who won purple states in 2012, largely because they rode Obamas coat tails. He can’t help them in 2018. And that will have an effect.


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You are correct, no Obama coattails, but there are votes that will come over with Trumps polarization. It will be telling who he endorses now and who wants his endorsement in the gop.

It will be an interesting year of politics.
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Very, very interesting.

If 80% of Americans really do see a tax cut, that's the whole GOP election message right there. "Vote for me, or your taxes will go back up, and you'll stop getting these $1,000 bonuses and minimum wage hikes." It's a smart political move by the GOP. The people who got those $1,000 bonuses, might not care that Trump is a reptile.

I didn't say I'd support it, just that it doesn't seem like that big of a deal.
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I am a simple guy poor writer and worse speller but I work pay bills and have a house and live comfortably ..

its been said by many conservatives the Government should be run as a business or as we run our households.. ok hows is this tax plan doing that?

Sure i may get a tax break of 500 or 1000 bucks . i could also switch to geico stop going to D&D and save as much ..



Republicans know poor people and the middle class drive the economy 98% of any money they get is put back into the system.. where is the rich its reverse 2% goes back the other 98% gets invested or remains as wealth passed along

so in a nut shell the government gives big business more money and the government gives the middle class some money back to give it back to the companys who just got a huge tax break . but we should be thanking Trump for this bounty?

So the government just took a $5.5 trillion in revenue loss over a decade.

this is like one of us in our house losing our job.. the out come is clear things have to go ....or worse

a business with such a reduction in revenue would more likely close

What are they going to try to Take next? the next argument will be need to balance the budget

Oh, as Spence would say, the horror.

Money that is invested is also “put back into” the economy. Unless you burn your money or bury it, it goes back into he economy.
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who said i was poor? I know I should be happy with my 1000.00 dollars (sarcasm) with the estate tax removal the Trump family would get $7B windfall I should be happy for them (sarcasm) like they need a tax break

1000 spent and 1000 invested are not the same

I didn’t say they were the same. I said they are both pumped into the economy. You said wealthy people don’t use money in a way that puts it back into the economy. Unless they burn it or bury it, it goes back into the economy, and nothing in chairman Mao’s little red book can make that wrong. The economy needs people to invest, and it also needs people to spend. Both are critical.
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If you are not happy with $1,000 tax free every year, why should the rest of us care how you feel? There are probably millions of folks who'd be happy to take it off your hands if it means so little to you. Millions of folks who would be thrilled with the extra money. I doubt if the rest of the world cares what your emotional reaction to getting the money is. Burn it, for all we care. No, wait, spend it or invest it or save it in some bank account which will all contribute to the economy. And everyone else who gets the 1K or more will do the same, and the economy will be better off.

But why do you care how much of Trump's money he gets back? He's going to do the same thing you do, but on a grander scale, so will personally make a far more positive impact on the "economy" than you will, with your puny unappreciated 1K.

But if the federal government keeps it, the record shows that it will squander most of it on projects and programs that stifle the market growth needed to create jobs in which people will depend on earned income. So, instead, it will create more permanent government dependents. And, somehow, even with the massive cut the fed gets from tax confiscation, it manages to keep getting further in debt. Which also becomes a drag on the rest of us, not to mention the drag on the economy.

Hard to have a rational discussion. when your only point in all your threads is anti government this anti government that ,,

.. i would have rather kept taxes where they were and took care of nations infrastructure.. but that wont happen now

its basic math ... you pull that much revenue from any system things suffer... you dont need a degree in economics to figure that out ..

Maybe he would be much happier had Hillary won and no doubt instead of getting $1000 the government would be taking atleast that $1000 from all of us !




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[QUOTE=wdmso;1134026]Hard to have a rational discussion. when your only point in all your threads is anti government this anti government that ,,

.. i would have rather kept taxes where they were and took care of nations infrastructure.. but that wont happen now

What “nations infrastructure” you talking about, ours or the rest of the world ?
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You guys are insane if you think that parking millions or billions in a bank account Ian”returning it back into the economy”.
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you are insane if you park millions or billions in a bank account....:huh:

As opposed to the same amount of money used by the middle class “consumers”. I should have explained my point further.
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You are insane, more accurately ignorant, if you deny it.

Nebe, where do you suppose banks get money to make loans, so that people can get mortgages and open businesses? They are lending the depositors' money. If there are no depositors, the bank has no funds to make loans.

Turn off MSNBC and read an economics text.

Nebe, you just got schooled.

Since you're ignorant and insane I'll break this down for you. The reason the economy is in the tank is because the banks don't have money to loan business so they can hire people and pay higher wages.

If we give the banks money in the form of deposits the banks will be able to lower interest rates and give out tons of loans. If we give the banks a lot of money they will lower rates to zero and we will have unlimited growth.

Make that wrong.
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:huh:

I used the last of my garden grown shallots to make a red wine gravy for the tenderloin roasts. Next year I hope to grow more from the allium family as the red onions are almost gone. Especially tasty were the leeks.
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I forgot to buy shallots and had to use the end of a yellow onion. No wine, just herbs and stock. Big fan of leeks.
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Geez it was OK when it was Bernie's plan ;)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=FYAClOv3px4

Let’s talk about $1000 invested vs $1000 spent. If I invest, the $ goes against the Assets of a Company somewhere. The company I work for invests bigly in equipment and technology so they borrow money against invested assets to make that investment and pay some capital cost call it 5% so now my $1000 is doing the work of $1050. Our company pays all expenses and expects an investment to pay for itself in one year so the $1000 probably supported an employee for 100 hours (my portion of the total capital investment) at some wage; even $15/hr would mean someone else earned $1500 from y $1500. Any profit made on that asset is taxed and what is left is split up between the corporation and the investor (me) I earn since Trump took office 25% so my investment of $1000 is worth $1250 on paper, I pay 20% tax on 250 capital gain and the Government gets $50 and I net $200. So my $1000 investment “parked in the market” nets me $200, it nets the government at least $50, it nets some employee $1500, it nets a finance company $50 (which is also taxed at some level), the government confiscates (taxes) another 10% from the employee or $150, and whatever goods are produced are sold and intangibly improve someone’s life. So yes $1000 spent isn’t the same as $1000 parked in the market. Bank $50, Employee $1500, government $200+, Investor $200 Total $1950 from $1000 just sitting there doing nothing..

I said that it’s good for the economy when people deposit money in banks. I was correct. You somehow made the Evil Kineval leap that I meant that banks would lower interest rates? Not sure how you concluded that.

But Spence, if you think I’m wrong, and that it’s better when banks have no depositors, you are entitled to that opinion.
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I's called restructuring the system to fit available revenue. Downsizing is one form of successful restructuring. Over extending any system beyond actual resources is a sure way to make that system, as you put it, "suffer"--even collapse. And constantly borrowing, without repaying on the principal, getting further and further in debt, will also cause a system to "suffer"--even to collapse. And creating a Ponzi scheme system wherein it pays returns to its investors (the "people" in a government system) from new capital (fiat money in a Ponzi government system) paid to the operators (government bureaucracy and its special interests and lobbyists who support it) by new investors (new generations, the children of the "people" in a government system), rather than from profit earned through legitimate sources (reasonable, affordable, taxes to support a rigorously defined, limited, and consistently responsible, well structured system of government), will eventually, as all Ponzi schemes do, collapse.

As you say, it doesn't require a degree in economics to understand that.

I think, but can't be sure when it comes to Spence, that he thinks that banks, wealthy folks, businesses, just sit on large chunks of money, preferring that it lose its value to inflation rather than moving it in ways to increase its value.

They are a staple but don't last too long after harvest. I have been making a dish for special occasions for many years. Google potatoes w leeks and gruyere for a dish that will impress.
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I'm certain most liberals believe that. It's absurd.

I don't know anyone that thinks that.
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The Federal Reserve's program of quantitative easing created an artificial bubble of bank reserves for which the Fed paid a secured higher interest to the banks than the banks could get from less secure loans to the private sector at the lower interest dictated by the Federal Reserve's low benchmark interest rates.

That coupled with the economic downturn after 2008 which lowered the demand for loans, made it more profitable for the banks to lend less to the private sector and depend more on the Fed interest payments to them on the money it was holding for them, and so was not being released at normal volume into the market in the forms of loans to the private sector.

This intrusion by the Fed Reserve distorted the normal relationship of bank deposits to loans. It created a huge bubble of artificial bank reserves, not related to market activity, which can create massive inflation when that reserve is released into the market. The economy has recovered since then and the demand for loans is rising, and expected to rise more if the public confidence in the economy remains. There may be a tricky balance for the banks in taking on a great amount of public deposits to add to their reserve bubble which could infuse too much money into the economy and cause the feared inflation. In any event, the market will have to correct for the ill conceived bubble created by massive quantitative easing. Let's hope it doesn't provoke another crash.

Eventually, when things return to normal, if they do, then private deposits to banks will again create the reserve they need to make loans.

Then why do most liberals say that trickle down doesn’t help the economy?

Spence, if the wealthy don’t burn their money or bury it, then how do they use it in a way that isn’t beneficial to the economy? If they save it, spend it, invest it, donate it, or pay taxes with it, don’t all of those things help the economy? Please explain, I’m all ears.
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rich people love guys like you ... your the reason they stay rich you support a party that supports the 1% over the rest of the country
and happily wait under their table thanking them for what falls to the floor.. buying into the fantasy Anyone in American can be like them... that ship has sailed

the bottom 90% held 73% of all debt. According to The New York Times, the richest 1 percent in the United States now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent.


In 2007 the richest 1% of the American population owned 35% of the country's total wealth, and the next 19% owned 51%. Thus, the top 20% of Americans owned 86% of the country's wealth and the bottom 80% of the population owned 14%.

scraps from the table theory of economics

so a 1000 invested is returning 950 dollars ???

so are you going to cover what spending 1000 does?

love you Wayne, but this is just....good grief...

"your the reason they stay rich"

Oh, I am the reason that rich people are rich! Jeez, whatever magic wand I have that makes people wealthy, I should get around to using it on myself one of these days instead of living paycheck to paycheck. So Bill Gates and Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg are only rich because of Republicans, not because of anything they did. What an astute observation.

"you support a party that supports the 1% over the rest of the country"

Well, I live in cT, where liberals have ruled for 40 years. Our cities are FAR worse now than 40 years ago. So if you want to tell me that liberals care more about the poor than conservatives, you need to support that. The one study done on the subject, actually shows that conservatives are more charitable. But let's not let facts get in the way of a good rant.

"According to The New York Times, the richest 1 percent in the United States now own more wealth than the bottom 90 percent. "

And that's because of simple math. not because of theft. The wealthy have more money to invest than the rest of us. So when the economy grows, they will always benefit more than the rest of us. Out of curiosity, how would you stop this? Pass a law saying that people are no longer allowed to work or invest once their net worth hits some maximum? Is that something that you do in a free country?

"buying into the fantasy Anyone in American can be like them"

I never said anything that stupid. But 90% of us can be middle class if we work hard and make good decisions, and most importantly, if we have good parents. Most of us can learn a trade, or graduate from a public university with a degree in nursing, teaching, accounting, physical therapy, etc...You don't have to be rich or have a 200 IQ to pull those things off. True or false?

"the bottom 90% held 73% of all debt."

Part of that is that we want to live way beyond our means. How many flat screen TVs, smart phones, and all that other crap, must one have?

Your fixation on the wealth is very telling, and very telling. You claim that the rest of us can only wait for their scraps. That's demonstrably false, pure liberal bullsh*t. Wealth is not finite, it's not like a pizza. If Oprah Winfrey earns another million today, that does NOT mean there's a million less for the rest of us. When she gets richer, that doe NOT make my life or your life any harder. Don't you see that? How can you not see that?

All of liberalism is now based on divisiveness - based on race, gender, economic class. Liberals always blame someone else for their problems, rather then ever taking responsibility.

Chances are, if you want to know the cause of your problems, look in the mirror.

Does the top 1% eat 35% of the food and own 35% of the homes, cars, clothes, toys, guns, televisions, computers, etc. in this country? What is meant by owning more wealth?

Does your "all debt" include the debt government owes? latest 2017 stats say that "Total Government And Personal Debt In The U.S. Has Hit 41 Trillion Dollars ($329,961.34 Per Household)." (https://thedailycoin.org/2017/07/27/...per-household/ And that does not include corporate debt.

So if the federal government debt is around $20 trillion, and the State and municipal debts are around 5 trillion, that leaves personal debt to be about $16 trillion. Which is well less than half the total debt owed in this country. Most of the debt is owed by government, supposedly borrowed on our behalf. And to whom is the government debt owed? A great deal of it is owed to the top 1%. And a lot of that money was borrowed from the top 1% by Democrat politicians--probably more than was borrowed by Republicans. Not that it matters who borrowed it, but gives a lie to your who supports the top 1%.

So the government has handed you a personal bill of $329,961.34. Thanks to both parties but mostly to the Democrats. Can you pay that? Of course not. So who is going to pay for it? Apparently, no one will. Not if the government keeps borrowing from the top 1% to pay for only the interest on the debt. Your children will be left the tab. So they will need a booming economy to provide the jobs and wealth that can chip away at that debt. I guess that's why some politicians, and economists think that structuring tax policies in favor of business growth is more important than merely lowering personal tax rates.

His opinion, that the wealthy get first dibs at the trough and the rest of us have to get by on the scraps, is liberal economics in one sentence. It is demonstrably false, and far beyond absurd. But it's always easier to blame the boogeyman for our lot in life, than it is to take responsibility for our own lot in life. Liberalism always looks to blame someone else, preferably a white guy in a Brooks Brothers suit.

One thing I'm grateful for this year is that my parents never allow me to grow up miserable like Jim and be filled with the type of hate he demonstrates here.
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Two brother-in-laws both went to pay their property tax for the rest of 2017 today. One pays 22k and the other pays 25k but also has a second house that he stays in 2 days a week. Said he will try to sell the second house now. Both were die hard Trump fans until recently. I also went to pay the rest of my property tax today.
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