Easy solutions to your stats:

Be nice to those you know, and keep Islamic terrorists out of the country.

Historically when a small group insists on a right and gun owners are increasingly becoming a smaller and smaller group they end up losing it.
Don't think that a constitutional amendment is impossible.
I would rather give up some of my guns than all and when only 30% of the households own guns and only 10% of those give a s--t you can easy end up in a situation like the UK. Not having semi-automatics would punish my shoulder in duck season but not that bad. Lots of people go hunting in Canada.

No wonder we're doomed.The amount of misinformation and plain ignorance here is incredible.

The right is misinformed and the left is just plain ignorant.

I don't know why they are or are not used in mass shootings but it is mechanically and functionally just about the same gun. Shoots the same round at the same speed with the same single shot per trigger.

It is not an assault weapon, BTW. The AR destination stands for "Armalite"



Yes - they are sick kid "lost boys" with mental health issues, sometimes but not always from troubled homes.

Even several of the terrorist incidents (Hood, Pulse) had people that exhibited some question to mental stability.

In the end, we need to do something. Too many kids die every day on the streets, too many people commit suicide, and schools should be safe. The problem is most often and intersection between mental illness and access to something to kill people with, either bomb, firearm, or a vehicle. Maybe we should focus on the underlying problems: Mental Illness, and political and religious motivations.

To treat law abiding people as the enemy is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

You would give up some? There is your problem right there, Once they take those some, now there are fewer they will have to come for later. They are picking away bit by bit right under your noses under the guise of safety. Check out how things are in Australia, criminals get guns mailed to them in the mail and law abiding citizens cannot defend themselves because they gave up their guns. Are you going to bring a knife to a gunfight? or become a victim? or a slave to your tyrannical government?

Freedom comes at a cost

the choice of freedom was made in this country 250 years ago

What is the murder rate in Australia compared to the US?
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you mean to say some people are turned on by the POWER the gun has. I doubt it is actually the gun itself.

You didn’t read what I wrote you need to pick your battles, or the 90% of Americans who don’t agree with you can take the right from you and I by amendment as it was given to us 227 years ago
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Blacks don’t generally launch these mass killings. But I’d like to take on all gun violence, and more people are killed in garden variety gun violence than mass shootings. Street crime and mass shootings are two very different things. The rate of fatherlessness is a catastrophe for the black community.

I agree with you about lost respect. The guns play a role, but the root cause is a lack of character among our population. Lots of reasons, fatherlessness, violence on tv, the internet, secularism, liberalism.

And I agree it’s getting worse. I agree with everything you said. I don’t like it, but every word was accurate. But it’s depressing
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It is sad Jim,just terrible. I would hesitate to refer to any murder as garden variety though. And certainly what goes on in Chicago is more palatable than the mass murder epidemic we are experiencing as of late. But it is still an atmosphere of disrespect. I love guns but refuse to hang this on the constitution like others and dismiss these instances of bloodshed as legal or acceptable because of our outdated measures of good intention. There has to be a middle ground where we can still maintain civility and respect, but protect the innocent victims whose numbers keep growing but are squelched out by our patriotic defenders of freedom. Freedom to get weapons regardless of mental state. Freedom to get weapons just to go kill innocent bystanders. Trust me, if their children were victims they would sing a different tune. This is a terrible scene that plays out with more regularity and it is heartbreaking for our society. I would caution you to hang the cause of these incidents on liberalism,it seems too shallow and insecure in a climate like we are experiencing as a nation. Rise above this type of accusation and digg deep for solutions.
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"It is sad"

That's exactly what it is.

"I would hesitate to refer to any murder as garden variety though.'

I hear you, but you know what I meant...regular street crime, which while it doesn't make the headlines of mass shootings, claims way more lives.

"I love guns but refuse to hang this on the constitution like others"

There are no easy solutions. Just a good time to hug my kids and take them to see the Harlem Globetrotters tomorrow. Have a good long weekend.

I get what you are saying but I am not handing over anything period

To equate any attempt to alter gun laws with the intent to save lives as an attempt at taking away all gun rights is not the solution. But it is great for votes.

Also, in almost every recent mass murderer, the person was a law abiding person up until the guy gunned down kids, teachers, concert goes, club dancers, etc. There are certainly ridiculous components of gun laws, but gun laws are not inherently ridiculous.

I like guns. I tagged along on hunting trips from as young as 5 or 6 and love to shoot. I am now convinced the founders "messed' up.

Supreme Court decision in US v. Miller 1939 2nd amendment intent and implication was for weapons related to a "well regulated militia" only. Based on everything I have read about the lead up to the second I am convinced that is what the founders intendedband as such is antiquated. The concern of the founders was the shift of security from State militias to federal forces. Leads to the question, in modern times, do well regulated state militias that provide protection against the federal army exist and should the intent to protect them dictate modern gun policy?
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The answer is to make it more difficult to get firearms. Stop making stupid rules that do nothing,10 rounds,bumpstock....Just make the process to acquire the firearm more selective. Right now in MA it takes about 20 minutes to buy a firearm,this is in a state considered to have strict gun laws. It must be time to pay more attention. If I had to wait a day,week,or month in order to make an impulse or nutjob think twice about his urge to kill it would be worth it.
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I disagree. The founding fathers knew what they were doing. But they did put in a mechanism to repeal the 2A. Get 34 states to repeal it in a Constitutional Convention. But then you will see the breakup of the USA.

What we need? Better background checks. And a system of restraining order for those suffering from mental health issues.


You have to have a FID car in Mass first, THEN you get to some of the most restrictive gun rules in the nation.

You are correct John in what we need, though I don't think it is limited to those two things. The NRA funded politicians fight those two things tooth and nail and propagandize that they are the first step to the government taking all guns. I also suggest reading as much as you can about the lead up to the second amendment. No doubt in my mind that 200 years and pervasive political propaganda has distorted the intent of the founders.
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John, that is not exactly jumping through hoops, guns can be dangerous you know. Believe it or not, the state of Mass actually makes you take drivers education classes and then you have to pass a written exam and then a road test to get a license. And that is just to drive a car! Imagine if there were similar requirements to get a little firearm. I know, crazy talk. It should be as easy as getting milk and eggs. Certainly not as difficult as buying cigarettes.
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Great post.

Want to reduce mass killings?

Have our schools do a better job of identifying the small number of children who are lonely, isolated, or bullied. Get these kids some love and some help. I am convinced that in many cases, being alone/bullied in school, is the breeding ground for the mass shooters.

Let's encourage a return to traditional family values, encourage more families to have a parent at home to keep an eye on things. Instead of running around 24 hours a day for kids activities, take time to have supper together and talk to your kids, and listen. Turn the devices off.

Curb the violence we bombard our kids with on TV and in video games

get to church once in awhile, and listen to what's being said.

Encourage more families to have 2 parents.

Be more proactive about locking up the violent mentally ill.

Have a rational conversation about bump stocks and high capacity magazines.

If we do all these things, mass killings will decrease. If we don't do these things, they won't decrease.

A single incident doesn't make a very good case. And someone who's trained to use a weapon?

Nobody has said people kill simply because of looks. But to argue there isn't a cult like following around deadly weapons that has an influence is crazy.

This is just a bunch of circling nonsense. It's a systems problem, you can't cherry pick single elements in an effort to discredit the entire thing.


Yea, let's go back to a time when women knew their place, gays stayed in the closet, the poor starved and minorities knew better than to mingle with the white folk.

Fess up. Is detbuch really Jeff Sessions?

Funny, most real progressives I know, and I don't know a lot of them believe in a democracy and liberty.

That certainly is part of the solution. Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty.

We're better than that.

Why would we have a federal registry for automatic weapons and not for some semi-auto which have proven in Vegas to be able to hit over 500 people in the span of a few minutes? Why can someone with the extreme track record of illness and violence be able to just walk in and purchase an assault weapon in a few minutes?

Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?

Apparently, the whole world, today, believes in democracy. Whoopee!! But Progressives view of liberty . . . well . . . let's put it this way . . . Progressives have a new view or definition of the old language. Liberty is, like all other words, what Progressivism says it is. The historical record and current practice of Progressive ideology says that "liberty" is whatever government and its experts allows it to be.

"Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty"

It's the inly issue I know of, on which it's almost impossible to have a rational conversation with staunch conservatives.

"Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?"

In terms of the mass killings? Great question. We have a very small number of very sick folks who are way more violent than the sickest folks in other countries, I guess. It's not an indictment of most Americans, just the sickest.

I have said it before the NRA is going to cost its membership dearly . with their NO as a stance on everything gun related ... be part of the solution or the solution will be nothing your going to like ....

some one posted the constitution is for limited Government and seems unlimited fire arms as well ... they want it both ways

That really makes no sense at all Jim. There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow. If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country then you may as well just say you are part of the problem too. I am past the point of denial,something is wrong.
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Jim .. Fear sells guns and ammo the NRA is a Fear broker ..(look at the sales under Obama..) The NRA and Fox news promotes the Mutually Assured Destruction theory (only a good guy with a gun mantra) ,there will be a rush to buy and ammo if there is any gun control talk... its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America

I think I did a rotten job of trying to articulate my point, sorry.

"There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow"

I agree, but I don't know what it is. Why is our culture different from, say Germany or England? They watch the same movies, listen to the same music, right? Or look at the Dakotas. Everyone has guns, but except for what you watch on "Fargo", there is zero gun crime. Why is that?

"If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country"

I don't think we have an epidemic of mass shootings. I mean one is way too many, but it's not common.

Street crime, on the other hand (like what happens in Chicago every weekend), is an epidemic and it's very easy to point to the causes.

"I am past the point of denial, something is wrong"

Oh I agree something is seriously wrong. I think our culture and moral compass need a major tune up, a return to 1950s family values, minus the racism.

"Fear sells guns"

You can say that again.

"Its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America"

Agreed.

And the left intentionally leaves out the violence that the entertainment industry bombards our kids with, and the horrific effect that the breakdown of the nuclear family has.

Everyone in the Dakotas has guns, but there is no crime. Because they care about each other. THERE'S THE ANSWER, to care about each other like they do. But Obama calls them bitter clingers, and Hilary calls them deplorable. And no one on the left (including the media except Foxnews) questions Obama and Hilary when they say these things.

That impedes progress, just as much as when the right says we need more guns. Both sides are thoughtlessly rigid in their ideology, both sides are close minded as can be. Both sides prevent solutions. Because we elect people based on how pretty and popular they are, or how much money they promise us, instead of electing people who care.


"

You two are meant for each other. This has nothing to do with Obama or Trump. Nothing to with R or D.
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Because it's not true. Death by firearms in the Dakota's is in the lower third of all states but it's double NY, NJ, RI, MA, HI etc...

Worst offenders were all heavy Trump states. Go figure.

There's a deeper breakdown that's creating anger in men that doesn't know how to vent and I agree it has nothing to do with politics. I read the other day that only 5% of mass shooters had a diagnoseable mental illness. While Cruz certainly had issues going after mental illness like Trump has been is just a way to excuse the violence as nothing we can address.

I don't think it has anything to do with the breakdown of the family either Jim. You love to cite stats around the breakdown of black families but mass shootings by non black killers are 5 times higher and most of that is likely gang crime.

We have evolved into a society where the influence of family units is progressively undermined by the power and influence of the larger "family," the state. It is more of an appropriation of some of the control and influence that family units had rather than a breakdown of that control and influence. Though it is resisted by many who still believe in what Jim refers to as family values, it is gladly consented to by many of the post-1960-government-educated who want to be released from total or near total responsibility.

The different "systems" produce different societal results.

R's won't budge on guns. D's won't budge on culture, morality, family values, whatever you want to call it.

When you cherry pick the way you look at the data, sometimes you can make it say what you want.

When you normalize gun deaths by state, with gun ownership by state (which is the correct way to look at it if you want to know if guns are the cause of gun deaths), deaths are very low in the Dakotas.

"I don't think it has anything to do with the breakdown of the family either Jim."

Of course you don't. That would mean conservatives have a point, and you'll never, ever concede that.

Parents who are engaged with their kids and who give a sh*t about their kids, are aware of whether or not their kids, however they got there, are at the point of snapping.

The fatherlessness in black culture has very little to do with these rare mass shootings. It has a lot to do with everyday street crime, like the 500 homicides a year in Chicago. True or false?

And I hate citing those stats. But they are worth citing when talking about things that are driven by those stats.

"it is gladly consented to by many of the post-1960-government-educated who want to be released from total or near total responsibility"

Bingo. And the results speak for themselves.

And it's gladly consented to by the idiotic masses, because abdicating responsibility for raising your kids to the schools, is a lot easier than taking on that responsibility. My life would be a lot easier if I could spend all day indulging myself instead of spending today making breakfast for 5, playing on the swings, taking one kid to basketball practice, taking another to a hitting lesson, then taking them all to see the Harlem Globetrotters. I could be drinking beer at the Springfield Camping Show instead, and letting my kids fend for themselves on the Internet. But I believe I forfeited that right when I decided to have kids (not a permanent forfeit, I can indulge myself again when my second grader is out of college, 14 more years of my being enslaved).

Spence, thanks for proving that you are just as guilty. This spree has no party affiliation. Don't associate it in such a way. Very shallow agenda Jeff
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Pffffttt...the causes might not be partisan but the desire to work on the problem most certainly is.

Jim just showed two posts above this how hard folks with old fashioned family values, many of whom are Republicans, work on the problem. What are the odds that Jim's kids will fall in love with the sexiness of an AR-15, or any other gun, and then shooting up a school full of children.

But if we insist that Trump, or federal politicians (who do such a great job in every thing else) make it better, then the problem will get "fixed." But never mind that when those politicians fix something, their solutions usually create more problems. And let's not get hung up on that their solutions tend to go astray of the Constitution and wind up in their getting more power at the expense of ours. After all, they have these wonderful, reasonable discussions with each other. And somehow get richer, more powerful, and more entrenched.

Something interesting to read
https://brenebrown.com/blog/2017/11/08/gun-reform-speaking-truth-bull#^&#^&#^&#^&-practicing-civility-affecting-change/
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But that is not the statement that I responded to Jeff,is it? If you think hard you may even recognize that you changed topics.
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