no, it sure isn’t working in chicago.

We all need to get better at admitting what works, and expand in that. And admitting what doesn’t work, and either adjusting or doing away with what doesn’t work.

What Guiliani did in NY with gun violence not only worked, it was practically a miracle. But a lot of people won’t admit that, because they don’t like the party he’s in and that he likes Trump.

At the same time, some conservatives need to admit the 2a isn’t limitless. James Madison who wrote it, later banned firearms on campus at the university of VA when he was school president. Which means the guy who wrote it,,meant for the right to be limited. But again ,,if there are 400 million guns already out there, we need to concede that future gun control can at best have a limited impact because we aren’t confiscating them

We all need to set ideology aside, and just look at results honestly. It’s not hard.

and we need to admit that the constitution might be in the way of some things we’d like to do, and that’s ok.
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Stupid statement by you both, so what no criminals go to trial, it’s the standard right dodge “guns don’t kill people”. Take all the assault rifles out of the picture since they became available and what is the reduction of the death rates and how many children are able to grow up.

I agree that weapons that look like the AR-15 are disproportionately used in mass shootings. I'm convinced the look of those rifles fuels the fantasies of some very sick folks. But we tried an assault weapons ban, it didn't work. They let it lapse. Doesn't mean it wouldn't have some benefit today, but how do you get rid of the ones already out there?

I'm going to pull this one quote because this is really where things distill from.

First and foremost, eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible. Way to bridge the divide. But your statement there is just a mini version of the left's overall approach; marginalize and demonize the right.

A lot of Republicans want better gun control, but they do not want what the left brings. I'm willing to work for better legislation that would actually make a difference but no matter what goals or concession the right is willing to work on, it will never be enough as the left will want more and consume more. Want to know what would have worked here? A proper and well regulated Red Flag law. Why can't we have a Red Flag law that keeps firearms out of the hands of people that should not have them while respecting the rights of the significant majority of people?

The left wants no guns and the major effort made is to take the guns out of the hands of law abiding people. The left wants a UNIFYING topic they can rally support around to make Republicans Bad People, regardless of the facts on the ground. The left spends BILLIONS of dollars per year to get "assault rifles" banned for the 300-400 per year killed by them and you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year. Gun homicides increased in cities by THIRTY-SEVEN PERCENT in 2020 over 2019. Over Fifty percent of gun deaths are suicide, 45 percent are violent crime. Of that violent crime, a tiny amount are these "Mass Shootings". It is still too much, and most instances of those Mass Shootings are mental health.

The left moves the needle with "Common Sense" Gun reform. Everything from the Left is "Common Sense" and it is stated enough by politicians and a compliant and willing media, they believe it. But it entirely misses the problem, mental health.

I will not accept the lefts targeting of Legal Gun owners rather than targeting the people likely to commit the crime. We could work on that but we don't because the Left doesn't want that, they want to break those that don't agree with them.

So, no, I will give in to your demands. I will not accept your "common sense" and more kids are going to die because we can't work together because YOUR side demands changes that won't resolve anything at the problem level while directly impacting the rights of those that are not the problem.





Take "assault weapons" out of the picture and 2020's 46,000 gun deaths comes way down to about 45,700.

So, no, "assault weapons", the major target of the dems and, cough, Common Sense Gun Laws people, cough, is responsible for much less than 1% of annual gun deaths.

Red flag laws MIGHT have stopped Sandy Hook. That poor kid was well known as being horribly broken. But it's also very easy to see red flag laws abused, where certain people would spend all day calling the cops, telling them that everyone they don't like, is too dangerous to own a gun. Very ripe for abuse.

Very, very tough.

"you don't hear a fcking peep about the 15000 murders in America's cities every year."

This is exactly true, and it's irrefutable proof that this isn't about saving lives, it's about demonizing the other side to win elections. If you actually want to save lives, you'd immediately implement stop and frisk in every single big city. We know that worked. We san see what New York looked like before, during, and after. But ideology is what matters here, not results.

You never get this worked up. Tough times. And getting worse.

Do the math on mass shootings only, I'm betting it's a different picture and you just keep putting ignorant statements up one after the other. The "left wants no guns", so no left gun owners, no left hunters, no left owners of guns to protect their homes, what a crock John.

Not a crock, Bob. Receipts Bob, I bring receipts. The difference between me and you on this topic is that I have at least done some homework and you are reacting to the feels.


https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...hs-in-the-u-s/

A Red Flag law that has serious provisions to protect people's individual rights - current ones don't - and are written to mitigate bad faith manipulation - yeh, I can get behind those.

agreed. THATS common sense.

and institute stop and frisk to address garden variety city gun violence.
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I am mixed on Stop and Frisk because THAT has impacts on the person's rights. There needs to be Just Cause, yada yada yada, to search someone by Gov officals.

eff off for your statement that insinuates that only the firearm owners that agree with your requirements are responsible.


Now your hearing things ..

The public is getting sick and tired of the 2a crowd and their my way or the highway mentally.. so you have a choice participate in crafting gun laws or Keep ignoring the problem sooner or the later the public is going to fix the problem. And all gun owners won’t like the results…
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Here’s a start

https://www.theiacp.org/sites/defaul...2018%20(1).pdf
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I chose to participate in gun laws, I will support gun laws that are properly crafted and focus on the problems, not the boogeymen brought out. As I stated this morning:

A Red Flag law that has serious provisions to protect people's individual rights - current ones don't - and are written to mitigate bad faith manipulation - yeh, I can get behind those.


And THIS ^^^^ might have prevented 2 days ago, Parkland, Newtown, Buffalo, and half a dozen others.

A bunch of police officers standing outside the school, while the shooting is going on, parents pleading for them to go in, pretty much demolishes the argument about the good guy with a gun saving anyone.
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An important thing to understand is that most people who have murdered large numbers of human beings were not mentally ill in any way
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So the inability of police to reduce crime to 0, means there's no argument to support the existence of the police?

You do this a lot, to shoot down right wing ideas, you point out that those suggestions aren't guaranteed to be flawless. Can you name many liberal policies which you support, which we can't find a specific case showing them to be imperfect?

I notice you never hold liberal suggestions to the same standard, liberal suggestions don't need to be prefect. "Good" is good enough for liberal ideas, but conservative ideas are "demolished" if they are imperfect in any way.

In 2012, the NYPD made more than 532,000 stops, each of which could progress to a frisk or to a full search. The police found guns only 715 times. In other words, guns were found during 0.1 percent of stops.

I think Herschel Walker wants to expand MH funding and do some other things. If anyone needs a job maybe they can apply to "look at young men that's looking at women, that's looking at their social media?"

We need to get into what happened to him, why, by putting money in mental health. Have people thought about that?" Walker said, referring to the 18-year-old alleged shooter in Uvalde, Texas. "We've gotta get back into prayer. People thinking now praying is bad. No, it's not bad. We need to pray for things like that. We need to continue to go out and fight, continue to take your constitutional rights away, and I think we can't do that."

Fox & Friends" co-host Brian Kilmeade asked Walker where he stands on gun control measures such as universal background checks or raising the age to buy assault weapons from 18 to 21.

"Well, you know, it's always been an issue, because as I said earlier on, they wanna score political points . People see that it's a person wielding that weapon, you know, Cain killed Abel," Walker said. "And that's the problem that we have. And I said, what we need to do is look into how we can stop those things.

"You talk about doing a disinformation," Walker continued, "what about getting a department that can look at young men that's looking at women, that's looking at their social media? What about doing that, looking into things like that, and we can stop that that way?"

Walker also mentioned "putting money into other departments rather than the department that's wanting to take away your rights," but did not specify any agency.

If the cops weren't doing anything else at that specific time, removing 715 illegally carried guns in one year, seems like a worthwhile use of time. Until the bad guys start wearing signs that announce their intentions, unfortunately we need to cast the net pretty wide. What's a more efficient way to get illegal guns of the street? Ask criminals to pretty please turn themselves in? Chicago and DC in recent past had very tough restrictions on gun ownership, did that help gun crime more than the things Rudy did?

Put stop and frisk, specifically, aside. Did murder rates drop meaningfully during Rudy's tenure Paul? Did he do a great job with violent crime? In the 5-6 years begore Rudy was sworn in, NYC had about 2500 murders a year. By the time he left, it was under 1,000 a year. Rapes went from 5,000 per year to 3,500. Robberies from over 100,000 per year to under 40,000. Total violent crimes from over 200,000 per year to under 100,000.

Maybe stop and frisk had zero impact. But obviously in aggregate, the things he did, helped. Why in Gods name would we willfully choose to ignore that, because we don't like the party he is affiliated with?

We would all (conservatives included) do well to put ideology aside, focus on results. Look at what has worked, and do more of that. Look at what doesn't work, and stop doing it. Why is that so hard?

https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm

Murder (and all crimes) dropped across the whole US - not only in NY. Rates started to fall before stop and frisk and continued to fall after S&F was stopped. Criminologist argue over the reasons with probably 10 -15 being listed. Some that people agreed on previously have been called into question. One that is lately getting more study is the decrease in lead in gas. There is/was no smoking gun that is an answer.

FYI - Rudy was mayor from 1994 to 2001. It looks like most crimes started to go down a few year before he became mayor and continued to decrease after Rudy.

When you say "it looks like", what were you looking at? You got data that shows that NYC's crime drop didn't stick out?

I googled that question, saw this article.

University of California isn't known as a right-wing school last time I checked. Yet a law professor there said NYC's crime drop under Rudy "one of the most remarkable stories in the history of urban crime".

https://www.city-journal.org/html/ho...ory-13197.html

Here is another article. From the article:

"During the 1990s, crime rates in New York City dropped dramatically, even more than in the United States as a whole. Violent crime declined by more than 56 percent in the City, compared to about 28 percent in the nation as whole."

Meaning, NYC saw a drop that was exactly double the nationwide average.

During the 1990s, crime rates in New York City dropped dramatically, even more than in the United States as a whole. Violent crime declined by more than 56 percent in the City, compared to about 28 percent in the nation as whole.

But Rudy was a Republican, and even worse, a Trump ally. He can't have done anything good.

The crime rates (according to the chart YOU linked) started to decline BEFORE Rudy was Mayor and continued AFTER Rudy was no longer Mayor.

So it has nothing to do with Rudy being a Republican or "even worse" a Trump ally.

if his policies were left in place after he left office ( which i think? they largely were by Bloomberg), why wouldn’t the improvement continue?

he’s a republican, we get it, he can’t have good ideas

Paul, what’s happening with crime in chicago? is it all republicans committing the murders?
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I have no idea who is committing all the murders in Chicago other than they are bad people and that the majority of guns used in crimes come from other states. Is it Dems? and how do you know how they voted in the last election?

OK, Like you said, I looked at my data, compared the decrease in murder and total violent crime from 1993 (last year before Rudy) to 2001 (Rudy's last year), for NYC and the whole country.

For murders over that time, NYC saw a 60% drop (from 2,420 to 960) while the US saw a 35% drop (from 24,530 to 16,037).

For total violent crime, NYC saw a 50% drop (from 195,352 to 98,022). The US saw a drop of 25% (from 1,926,020 to 1,439,480).

Why did NYC see better decreases than the rest of the country? The difference is even more stark, because the US numbers include NYC. If you were to exclude the NYC numbers from the nationwide numbers, NYC would look even better than "US excluding NYC".

So why did NYC see vastly more improvement?

A bunch of police officers did not go into the school after him, and stopped parents from going in. So good guys with guns did not stop that until, from what I understand, an off duty Border Patrol officer went in and killed the murderer, getting shot in the process. So a good guy with a gun DID end it after other marginally not good guys with guns (and body armor and rifles) held the parents back.

Large numbers like Stalin and Hitler? Or like Lanza, Ramos, Holmes, and Cruz?



They are almost certainly not Republicans because there are so few remaining in the city to pick from.

The fact that gun crime is high in Chicago in part because of guns from elsewhere, is exactly why additional gun control laws aren't likely to work, unless you have a way of confiscating the 400 million that are out there, which isn't even worth discussing. Those guns are out there, and they aren't going away, and they are the reason why additional gun control isn't the silver bullet that the left says it is.

We need more than gun control. Way more.

He's saying most mass shooters had no mental issues, not sure about that.

How many had two loving, dedicated parents who spent quality time with them? Same question of people who murder others in garden variety gun crime...

Culture is a big contributor.

Covid-related isolation will make it all worse, and that will be manifesting itself for another 20 years. Super.

Compstat
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Right no one is saying you should be confiscating all the guns out there. But there is a gun highway coming from other States like Indiana and Mississippi that lead directly to Chicago. Stop that and you take away much of the guns that are used in crimes in Chicago.
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Copied this list from a friend. Personally I have no idea the list of school shootings is this long since the late 90s. Yes I looked up some of them to make sure not fabricated. Only mass shootings made the news. Majority were personally targeted. The facts and statistics really not important here. I do agree guns don’t kill people, people kill people. I also support the 2nd amendment if interpreted correctly. I do have problem with the gun laws not being uniformed across the country. Many argues about California yet most guns are purchased out of state. Similar to us M#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&s buying fireworks in New Hampshire. My point is that us responsible gun owners have no issues waiting a few days for background check. While this is not going to end gun violence but it may reduce the guns on the streets and some potential tragedies.

Thurston High School.
Columbine High School.
Heritage High School.
Deming Middle School.
Fort Gibson Middle School.
Buell Elementary School.
Lake Worth Middle School.
University of Arkansas.
Junipero Serra High School.
Santana High School.
Bishop Neumann High School.
Pacific Lutheran University.
Granite Hills High School.
Lew Wallace High School.
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School.
Appalachian School of Law.
Washington High School.
Conception Abbey.
Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
University of Arizona.
Lincoln High School.
John McDonogh High School.
Red Lion Area Junior High School.
Case Western Reserve University.
Rocori High School.
Ballou High School.
Randallstown High School.
Bowen High School.
Red Lake Senior High School.
Harlan Community Academy High School.
Campbell County High School.
Milwee Middle School.
Roseburg High School.
Pine Middle School.
Essex Elementary School.
Duquesne University.
Platte Canyon High School.
Weston High School.
West Nickel Mines School.
Joplin Memorial Middle School.
Henry Foss High School.
Compton Centennial High School.
Virginia Tech.
Success Tech Academy.
Miami Carol City Senior High School.
Hamilton High School.
Louisiana Technical College.
Mitchell High School.
E.O. Green Junior High School.
Northern Illinois University.
Lakota Middle School.
Knoxville Central High School.
Willoughby South High School.
Henry Ford High School.
University of Central Arkansas.
Dillard High School.
Dunbar High School.
Hampton University.
Harvard College.
Larose-Cut Off Middle School.
International Studies Academy.
Skyline College.
Discovery Middle School.
University of Alabama.
DeKalb School.
Deer Creek Middle School.
Ohio State University.
Mumford High School.
University of Texas.
Kelly Elementary School.
Marinette High School.
Aurora Central High School.
Millard South High School.
Martinsville West Middle School.
Worthing High School.
Millard South High School.
Highlands Intermediate School.
Cape Fear High School.
Chardon High School.
Episcopal School of Jacksonville.
Oikos University.
Hamilton High School.
Perry Hall School.
Normal Community High School.
University of South Alabama.
Banner Academy South.
University of Southern California.
Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School.
Taft Union High School.
Osborn High School.
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts.
Hazard Community and Technical College.
Chicago State University.
Lone Star College-North.
Cesar Chavez High School.
Price Middle School.
University of Central Florida.
New River Community College.
Grambling State University.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School.
Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy.
North Panola High School.
Carver High School.
Agape Christian Academy.
Sparks Middle School.
North Carolina A&T State University.
Stephenson High School.
Brashear High School.
West Orange High School.
Arapahoe High School.
Edison High School.
Liberty Technology Magnet High School.
Hillhouse High School.
Berrendo Middle School.
Purdue University.
South Carolina State University.
Los Angeles Valley College.
Charles F. Brush High School.
University of Southern California.
Georgia Regents University.
Academy of Knowledge Preschool.
Benjamin Banneker High School.
D. H. Conley High School.
East English Village Preparatory Academy.
Paine College.
Georgia Gwinnett College.
John F. Kennedy High School.
Seattle Pacific University.
Reynolds High School.
Indiana State University.
Albemarle High School.
Fern Creek Traditional High School.
Langston Hughes High School.
Marysville Pilchuck High School.
Florida State University.
Miami Carol City High School.
Rogers State University.
Rosemary Anderson High School.
Wisconsin Lutheran High School.
Frederick High School.
Tenaya Middle School.
Bethune-Cookman University.
Pershing Elementary School.
Wayne Community College.
J.B. Martin Middle School.
Southwestern Classical Academy.
Savannah State University.
Harrisburg High School.
Umpqua Community College.
Northern Arizona University.
Texas Southern University.
Tennessee State University.
Winston-Salem State University.
Mojave High School.
Lawrence Central High School.
Franklin High School.
Muskegon Heights High School.
Independence High School.
Madison High School.
Antigo High School.
University of California-Los Angeles.
Jeremiah Burke High School.
Alpine High School.
Townville Elementary School.
Vigor High School.
Linden McKinley STEM Academy.
June Jordan High School for Equity.
Union Middle School.
Mueller Park Junior High School.
West Liberty-Salem High School.
University of Washington.
King City High School.
North Park Elementary School.
North Lake College.
Freeman High School.
Mattoon High School.
Rancho Tehama Elementary School.
Aztec High School.
Wake Forest University.
Italy High School.
NET Charter High School.
Marshall County High School.
Sal Castro Middle School.
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Great Mills High School
Central Michigan University
Huffman High School
Frederick Douglass High School
Forest High School
Highland High School
Dixon High School
Santa Fe High School
Noblesville West Middle School
University of North Carolina Charlotte
STEM School Highlands Ranch
Edgewood High School
Palm Beach Central High School
Providence Career & Technical Academy
Fairley High School (school bus)
Canyon Springs High School
Dennis Intermediate School
Florida International University
Central Elementary School
Cascade Middle School
Davidson High School
Prairie View A & M University
Altascocita High School
Central Academy of Excellence
Cleveland High School
Robert E. Lee High School
Cheyenne South High School
Grambling State University
Blountsville Elementary School
Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)
Prescott High School
College of the Mainland
Wynbrooke Elementary School
UNC Charlotte
Riverview Florida (school bus)
Second Chance High School
Carman-Ainsworth High School
Williwaw Elementary School
Monroe Clark Middle School
Central Catholic High School
Jeanette High School
Eastern Hills High School
DeAnza High School
Ridgway High School
Reginald F. Lewis High School
Saugus High School
Pleasantville High School
Waukesha South High School
Oshkosh High School
Catholic Academy of New Haven
Bellaire High School
North Crowley High School
McAuliffe Elementary School
South Oak Cliff High School
Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
Western Illinois University
Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School

Still waiting for a response here Bob.


Indianna & Mississippi require dealers adhere to Federal to do a background check before firearms purchases. They do not have the best state laws.

I am a bit of a 1A and 2A absolutest but I am amenable for certain background checks, waiting periods, and some training requirements for certain things. But I am not compromising when the other side won't. I will not bend the knee.

Is the husband who had a heart attack and died shortly after visiting the memorial to his wife who was a teacher and was killed considered a victim also?
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heartbreaking.
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Well we MUST be able to come up with something better than what we are "living" with... And beyond time to take the Republican/Democrat out of the discussion. Mass has the strictest I think I read. It is a starting point. Waiting periods at a minimum. Licensing. Meet face to face with somebody, not a Zoom. Background check with cross references to mental health records/prescriptions?

BUT we need to spend some money on the mental health system. NOW! I know of a 14 or 15 year old girl who sits on a cot, in a hospital corridor, for four weeks now, because there are no beds to deal with her depression! That just isn't acceptable. While we obligingly send $Billions to Ukraine (and rightfully so) should there not be an investment made in mental health and our own veterans while the money is flowing????

after all the school shootings, how and why was there an unlocked door?

i taught at a school in a fairly poor town. Yet every single outside door had censors on them, if any of them
was ever unlocked, an alarm
immediately went off in the office, telling them which door was unlocked

Many parts of this issue are almost impossible to deal with - almost half a billion guns are out there already, evil is out there, and serious mental illness is out there. These are very difficult things to address.

Locking a door is not hard.

And the police appear to have a TON of explaining to do.

What a complete institutional/functional breakdown.
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Paul you said, correctly, that strict gun laws in chicago don’t do anything, because there’s a sea of guns out there.

Every city is exactly like chicago in that regard. we’re all surrounded by guns, and we can’t do anything about it.

You’re saying, stop the gun highway and you’ve solved the problem? if you built a wall around chicago today, you’re saying that would solve gun crime there? there aren’t millions of guns in chicago already?

If there weren’t any guns currently out there, gun control laws could
make a huge difference. But there are, so they won’t.

I’m not saying we don’t change gun laws where it makes sense, but we need to recognize that does absolutely nothing to address the 400 million guns that are currently out there, and whose hands they are in.

The way to make real widespread change, is to change culture and hearts. That’s extremely difficult, and we’re moving in the exact opposite direction. I don’t like saying it, but i am convinced it’s true, one party is completely invested in moving our culture in the exact wrong direction.

We’re a huge, free country that’s up to our eyeballs in guns. The more we move away from old fashioned values, the more of these there will be.

These things don’t happen with this frequency, in the 1950s, but guns were still common. I’d like to have a national discussion about why the culture then, was so much less prone to this violence.

Family, connecting with others in a real way, faith, empathy, humanity. Understanding that not every human impulse is something to celebrate.

Paul, we don’t like each other much. But you could have 10 machine guns in your home, and i know my kids wouldn’t be in any danger around you. I know it.

it’s not just the guns. it’s not just assault rifles. This kid walked into a school unchallenged,,and was allowed to do whatever he wanted for an hour. he could have pulled this off with a cub scout knife.

Guns are part of the problem, no question. But if we could get more of us to see others the way you see them ( as human beings), that would
also be a huge help.

and it looks like we’ve done nothing to make schools
much safer since Columbine. I don’t know why or how that could be

I’m seeing reports that he shot his gun randomly for ten minutes outside the school, before he entered. How could an external door be unlocked during ten minutes of shooting just outside?


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Disturbing the new timeline, WTF is wrong with the police who thought holding parents back was the priority.

Yes. This is going to be worse than Parkland in regards to the ineptitude of the police and maybe the FBI.

The police in Uvalde were armed far higher than the police at Parkland, many with body armor and rifles. They may have gotten some kids out, including their own, while the gunman was in the building - waiting for confirmation on that.

The FIB reportedly had a tip that this kid said he was going to shoot up a school.

The school may have had a lock system, but it was not in play.