Eben

A little history for you. Bush did not pull us out of this International Court, he flatly refused to be a party in it. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. That's why we make SOFA (status of forces agreements) with countries that we base troops in. These rights cannot be given away, ever. Remember each person serving in the US military has sworn the following oath.

"to protect and defend the constitution against all enemys, foriegn or domestic."

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional.

Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/F...ntlCrimCrt.pdf

Iraq's oil is paying for their liberation... so in otherwords, the billions of tax dollars that went to haliburten and all the defence contractors will be repaid by Iraqi oil. This is how Bush sold us the war he said and I quote" their oil will pay for thier liberation"

Also you payed about ¢30 more a gallon for gas durring the first few months of the iraqi war... that ¢30 went right into the pockets of the oil companies...

its stuff like this that get me :af: You arent told this by the media for whatever reason... dont ask me why:smash:

You liberals are all driving me nut on here!!!:D Im sure you are all solid people but damn, so of the stuff i hear is just friggen mind boggeling!!:smash:

Hey Spence I think Im going out tonight, drop me a line if you want to hook up.

Your right wing wako fishing nut KL

:laughs:

what i just said was mind bogggling? its the facts skip.. perhaps you need to stop listening to Rush limbah or whoever else is pumping you up with the propaganda enema.... I sugggest you watch PBS's Frontline episode about Bush coming to power and the war in Iraq... It lays everything out on the table.. the oil, the goverment contracts, who made the $$... and its simple to understand in black and white... I never saw Micheal Moores movie.. i didnt need to, i was already informed of what is really going on so i cant compare the two, but trust me on this, America is taking Iraq's oil right now, and selling it to oil companies to pay Iraq'a liberation tab. If you dont know this, i'm totally amazed. Talk about blind faith:smash:

Spence help me out here:confused:

Well, I think one problem is that isn't what's happening. We were told by the Bush Administration that Iraqi oil would be used to pay for the war so the American taxpayer wouldn't have to shoulder the burden. It isn't happening and it's not going to happen. Add it to the pile of Administration distortions about the war. I'll have to get on my tippy toes though, the pile is getting pretty large.

The real crime is that huge no-bid contracts are going to Halliburton who is in return screwing us with overcharges and outright fraud. The 20 Billion of taxpayer money we donated for reconstruction hasn't been spent and countless other billions are missing. Contracts are being awarded not on merrit but to friends.

I don't believe Bush invaded Iraq just for business reasons, but it's clear that the invasion is being used as a huge opportunity for the Administration to funnel money into the pockets of those they wish to enrich.

-spence

Well O.K. there you have it.. i remember listening to bush leaning over his pulpit saying that "Iraq's oil was going to pay for their liberation"... so I figured that was going to happen...

ahh halliburton.. I'm not going to start on halliburton...

In case you haven't realized. Iraq now has a goverment. They make the decisions as to how to spend their oil revenues.

There are 2 offshore oil terminals off Iraq, Mabot and Kaaot. Room for 8-10 super tankers to load oil. Before the war 1 berth was operational, now all berths are operational. That's 8-10 super tankers every 2 days. That money, is being used by Iraq to rebuild Iraq. Do you think it should go in your pocket?

"We have gone forth from our shores repeatedly over the last hundred years and we've done this as recently as the last year in Afghanistan and put wonderful young men and women at risk, many of whom have lost their lives, and we have asked for nothing except enough ground to bury them in." -Colin Powell

That's not what was sold to the American people Chief. We were told oil revenue would be used to pay for much of the war.

We were told a lot of things that were not true :smash:

-spence

Spence i love it when we are right :laughs:

Eben

Your not right. You had no clue as to what the ICC or article 98 was about.

article 98 is the war crimes thing right?

why did we pull out of it then?
this
is from amnesty international... expressing exactly what i was saying...

"and they think whatever they say is fact. It really makes me sad knowing people can be easly brain washed by liberal talking points and by some blowhard spewing an opionion with NO facts to back it up. If most people educated themselves and knew some facts about issues and used some common sense i am totally convinced Bush would win by a landside in Nov."

I'm sorry but I'd have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. We only hear sound bites from this administration. The RNC was very low on content and very high on ??? well they were excited. We are now more hated by many in the world than we were befor the cowboy started swaggering around with his six guns.

I'm a veteran and I too took an oath to defend the constitution. This constitution is being eaten away in big chunks lately and not in ways I like. Our rights to free speach cannot be confused by the President as unpatriotic! When in our history has the arguement been "if you disagree with me your a (socialist/communist/traitor/rabel-rouser/sinner)" we're on a sloap.

Also do those "prisoners in Cuba" deserve a trial for alleged crimes if there are allegations against them? Or are they less worhty of this because they aren't Americans? Just a thought.

I consider myslef a Christian. I am a moral conservative i.e.: pro-life, anti-rainbow coalition, etc. but I'm also progressive in my approach to how we as a nation can help each other to be the best country on earth. Firmly do I believe the statement now more than ever that: "if you tell a lie often and loud enough it becomes the truth". The mean spirited politics of the 1980's, 1990's and 2000's has proven this to me.

I just ask to think things through with your own minds. Don't believe the Conservative press or the Liberal press. Read the testimonies and watch the voting records on C-span.

Good luck making up your own minds.

GW will get my vote. While I am not happy with some of his domestic policies, and he is not the best president in history, what does Kerry offer? I have heard little if anything about what he will do for the Country. I have heards about his 4 months of service in Vietnam, but that was 30 years ago? Perhaps he served more bravely than GW, I don't really care. I don't know where he stands on any issue, other than he thinks GW is doing everything wrong. I am not impressed at all with Kerry's voting record, and the fact that he ranks as one of the most liberal democrats after Kennedy scares me.

For those of you who think that the war on terrorism is nothing more than a scare tactic put out by the right, how have the events in Russia the last two weeks made you feel? Can you link Al Quadea and people in general that hate us, or do you think they are two unrealted things?

RIPopper... god bless you. :love:

Eben

A little history for you. Our troops have never been or ever will be subject to international courts. Why? Soldiers and Sailors have the same constitutional rights as you do. These rights cannot be given away. Clinton was messed up to have signed the treaty to begin with.

The United States of America will never agree to this treaty, ever. It is unconstitutional for our service members.

Question Eben : Why do you feel it would be appropriate to remove the rights from the folks that protect yours?

http://www.disam.dsca.mil/itm/IMSO/...IntlCrimCrt.pdf

Amnesty International should be having a party because we gave "basic" human rights to the people of Iraq. Next thing you'll throw at me is something by the ACLU.

I'm not saying that their rights should be taken away, but I think that they should be held acountable for their actions in a way that grants the person or people that have been violated equally... we have people down in cuba that may or may not be guilty of terrorisim, but they are being held in dog cages and are being treated like garbage..We have had a few people in Abu gharib prison treat their captives like they were chunks of meat, totally disreguarding any sorts of rights that the iqaqi detainees were entitled to. Will those people be punnished?? yes by our courts, but rest assured they will be given a slap on the wrist at best.
Our country seems to have the attitude that our beliefs are better than everyone else, our god is better than the muslim's Alah, and that our way is the only way. I think thats wrong. I think that the world would be more harmonious if we didnt play the role of the global bully. Leave that to the UN, that is why it was created...if you think about it, the UN is a democratic voting system, while we make global desicions like Bush is the king of the world.. Thats kind of Hypocritical dont you think?? Here we are saying we're spreading democracy to the land of tyrany and then we thumb our nose at the democratic process created to avoid pointless wars.
And we wonder why every other country in our world hates us?:smash:

i answered your question navychief, now please answer mine... do you think that we would have liberated Iraq if they did not have any oil?

Yes

They were a threat to our national security.
They were a threat to the region.
They were a threat to the economy.
They blew off UN sanctions for more than 10 year.
They did not assist inspectors.
We went to Bosnia, no oil there.

In the post 9-11 world, hard decisions have to be made. We cannot let that happen again.

"Leadership means pissing people off"

The UN is a democratic body, but they have no way to enforce their sanctions. So we do it. Then you say that we acted independently.

Our rights (as US citizens) are more than anyone else's and you can't take them away. We are held accountable for our actions by our own goverment and you, the citizen.

Be mad, vote for Kerry. It's your right and freedom. Merry Christmas and have fun paying higher taxes.

I agree with you Navy Chief.. our personal rights as US Citizens are higher than the average mid-eastern citizen. that can not be contested and I'm not saying that a soldier should give up those rights. So in a way I also agree that what your saying makes sense that if a person in uniform did do something wrong, and was taken to a international court, the person would in theory be treated the same way as someone in another country.. I'm just saying that that sets the precident for warcrimes to go un-accounted for.

I will vote for Kerry.. not beause i love him or because i think hes the best choice now, but because I think bush is the greater of 2 evils.

So merry christmas to you, and vote for bush... enjoy our "new world order" that the neo-conservatives have created for you... and i hope were still here in 10 years. Bush really isnt the scary guy... its the guys who are telling him what to say that i'm scared of.

Associated Press--"We showed weakness,says Putin" Vows security reforms in 'all-out war' on terror. Putin-"we showed weakness,and weak people are beaten."

Remember how North Korea shut up after Iraq?The only thing tyrants,bullies and terrorists respect is strength.
I have to ask myself,who would they vote for?


Imho the key issue is national security.It really comes before any of the other issues,because without it ,they all fall along the wayside.

thats a very good point, but if you dont pay attention to domestic issues, the country will crumble. it already is crmbling with all of the manufacturing jobs bush has allowed to go over seas. Theres got to be a balance and in my opinion, bush is ignoring some very important things here at home... he probably doesnt care though because the stock holders of the companies that are exporting the jobs to china are making more $$ and he said it himself.. "the rich is his base" and they are the ones who are all voting for him..

Eben,i understand your points,an agriclutural and manufacturing economy is the best economy. Unfortunately we are loosing both.
However,since 9/11,as well as before, we are at war with groups that want to destroy us as you well know.Without a show of force our end would come quickly.
When it comes to security ya gotta say what you mean and mean what you say.

Is that why one of the republican national conventions main themes was "Compassion" ?

maybe we should just nuke all of them and get on with our lives :smash:

by the way where is osama? you never hear bush talking about finding osama... go figure.

Hi Chief, Thanks for your service. Can I ask you why you believe you would pay more taxes under kerry than bush? The taxes for the middle and lower income people has risen since bush was in office and only the upper 2 percent of income people have gotten tax breaks. The middle and lower income have lost services though. So If Eben and is making over $250,000.00 a year, he will get a break with bush but actually if Kerry is given the opportunity to right some of the decisions of the past 4 years, he may actually pay less. I'm sorry but I don't think the lies and blanket statements that the conservatives have been saying for so long can keep going without being contested on their merit. If it's true that democrats spend more on welfare to the poor than the republicans pay to welfare for the corperate rich; please show me the numbers. Thanks.

I'm not looking to "nuke" anybody,however when our enemyies have the weapons they won't hesitate for a moment.Don't kid yourslef,they want our lifestyle of freedom wiped off the face of the earth.
What i want is my 3 Grandaughters to grow up with the freedoms and security my generation had. I am sure you want the same for your new son. Our generation hadto fight for it and if it is to continue so will all future generations.
Freedom is not free.

Kerry said that he was going to raise taxes.

Welfare ???? Get a job.

Navy Chief, Thank you for being there for us. Your sacrafices are truly appreciated.:)

for who was he going to raise taxes? probably those getting the free rides now I hope.

Have I mentioned the fact that I'm a really far far far right wing, war mongering Reagan republican ??? or did you guys figure that out?