Seems to me Penn management has the same arrogance of the Big 3 Auto Manufacture’s of the 70's versus the Japanese auto's and look what happened to them.

I hope you (Penn) will listen to what is being said here because it's been falling on deaf ears for so long.

I "was" dyed in the wool Penn (spin) but sold every one I had opting for Shimano, that was hard to do. Convince me & others to come back but for now I am sticking with a much greater performing product.

Throw this at management - I bet MikeCC has sold 75 Shimano to a lonely 1 Penn (both spin) and, AND if Shimano changes the spool on their boat reel to be wire friendly watch out your 112/113/114's are in trouble. He is one small shop in one small town, add'm up.

Penn = :smash:

how maeny surf caught fish were on a 704?penn needs to step up to the plate

Here's what I would suggest.

Van Staal proved there was a market for a premium spinning reel. Right now, Penn has written off that market. Shimano and Daiwa jumped in with both feet, with the Stella and Saltiga. They're proving guys will spend $600-$700, or even close to $800, for a quality product. If you could engineer a similar product, build it here, and bring it to the market in the $400-$500 price point, you'd have an instant success.

You want to make Zebco rue the day they ever acquired Van Staal? Re-engineer the 704 and 706. One little tweak--figure a way to retro-design them with "instant" roller-bearing anti-reverse. You could bump the price to $200 or even $250 and sell every one you make. Bring back the 710 and 712 with the same tweak---maybe even manual conversion capability, and you'd wipe the VS 150 and 100 out.

Oh yeah---one other thing. Tell the guys in production to ship the damn things with adequate grease inside a new reel. Most of the Slammers are dry as a bone inside, new out of the box. I hate spending $135 for a reel only to have to break it down and grease it before I use it.

Close chris. we have sold 78 Shimano and only 1 Penn Spinning (706) but we have sold 6 Penn 113HSP ,1 - 330GTI and only 1 Shimano Boat reel.

This is lhe last post for me on this subject.

I'll I have to say is there is no reason for me to believe in Penn when the Company does not believe in themselves.

Shimano makes a fantastic reel, and has terrific customer service.

But I have to echo everything Mike P just said. I love my VS, but needing another spinner I fretted over another VS or the Saltiga. I ended up buying a 704 off ebay...I would have easily spent up to 400 on any other product that had a nice anti-reverse and could deal with the suds...

-spence

mike p hit the nail on the head.

Available Manual conversion
Instant Reverse
Tapered Spool
Large Roller
Sealed Drag
Ventilated/Cross drilled spool * cup
Otherwise gasketed/sealed reel
Get rid of the damn clicker (pisses off some nighttime guys that don't lube the crap out of it)
Fix the Bail Flip

Roller bearing "instant" anti-reverse would do away with the clicker. No one I know back-reels those things with the anti-reverse off anyway, so there's no need for a switchable on/off anti-reverse. All it would do is add needless parts to a simple design.

Some machinists already slot the rotor cups, and most users drill the bottom of the cup. It's possible to make them that way (even with cast aluminum) without weaking the cup.

You don't even have to make them "sealed" like the VS. They're so simply designed inside that anyone who can turn a screwdriver and an adjustable wrench can break it down, clean it and re-lube them in less than half an hour.

For guys who want a bail, you could design the 704/710/712 so the bail only flips manually, like the Saltiga's. I can do it now by using the manual conversion kit, if I wanted a 704 with a bail that only flips by hand. I prefer the pure manual pick-up, but using the piece of the conversion kit that locks down the external bail trip, and removing the bail spring, you can have a "manual bail" instead of a pick-up.

The biggest beef guys have with Van Staal, besides the price, is the costly "annual service", and the difficulty in self-servicing them. I'm telling you, with mine and John's tweaks to the 7-series Spinfishers, you'd put a big dent in VS sales. We're out there fishing with the hard cores, and we listen. Penn management should listen, too. I know the surfcasting market is kind of a niche one, but the potential to sell these "Penn Staal" dreams is there ;)

Brent, print all this out and take it to management, your company should listen hard to this advise, they could spend thousands of dollars and up in market research, and not come up with advise as good as what's been written here.
Build them like the above recommendations, and watch them fly.

Man years ago, a top executive at Motorola decided to actually listen to an employee and the company took offfrom there.
Many years ago, top executives at Sony said that they will CREATE a market and people will comply. That was a big FLOP. It was only until they looked at what the market wanted (read: Unmet Needs) that they succeeded.

If people at Penn would listen to what the majority of anglers are asking for, and have a little PASSION, Penn would be an All-Star company.

The company has been sitting on its laurels for too long. Oldsmobile was first, Buick wil be next. Don't follow the corwd, do something about it. Improve your reels!!

Brent,
Are the 704 and 706Z going to remain the same? Is production going to be decreased on these?

Thanks,

Rich

Penn Spinning Reels Addressed
 

TO address the Spinning Reel issue, the SPinfisher SS reels (graphite bodies) were addressed, reevalauated, and tweaked, and revisted, and so an and so forth. What happened was the new management was tired of the band-aids being applied, and even more tired of the headaches...we needed a Spinfisher SS that works; result, the SSg that features 5 bb + one-way roller (anything more in a spinning reel is marketing, not performance related). Unfortunately, things do not happen overnight; but it takes time to design, build, test, tweak, test again and manufacture.

THe SSg is balanced, smooth, and is genuinely a nice spinning reel. THat being said, its update was about 10 years overdo. The one thing I quickly learned when I first came aboard Penn two years ago, was how the past always haunts you. THe problems everyone is experiencing with their SS spinning reels are well known, and we have listened and adapted. THis was the new management acting when they improved upon the reel, not the old management.

If you want to sell your customers a great reel, try the Penn Slammer. The Slammers are one of the finest spinning reels on the market. Take a look at the drag (under the spool for those not familiar with the reel), and you will find that largest drag surface on just about any spinning reel. As far as being built, the Slammer is constructed for trophy fish; oversized main shaft to reduce the chance for a big cow to bend the shaft when the spool is extended, all metal construction (no body flex under severe loads), and 5+1 marine grade-stainless steel ball bearings. MikeCC, if you will never fish with a Penn spinning reel again, than I do feel bad for you as the Slammer is one of the nicest fishing reels around. And yes, I have fished with just about everything out there (Stella, Sustain, VS, Daiwa).

As far as where the reels are built, if the new SSg reels are able to stand on their own against foreign competitors, than why would the argument not to sell or buy Penn based on the fact that they are not made in the US be valid? Aren't our competitors all foreign companies?? There are no more US spinning reel companies left. Penn was the last to manufacture, or at least in any quantity, spinning reels in the US. If Penn is still a US company (don't worry, we still are) and you are arguing for made in the US, than why favor foreign competitors? I do not understand.

Best regards,
Brent

Couldn't Agree More
 

DO you think five years ago, a manager from Penn would have taken the time to read, write, and reply to message boards. I know the old company was high on their horse. I can't say that of those that are in place now. Here I am reading the good, the bad, and the ugly about Penn and getting fired up over some of the commentary. Great thing about it, is I am in a position to do something about it and to incorporate the useful (both the good, bad, and the ugly) into improvements. Trust me when I say that many of the comments will be voiced in future meetings.

Good thing that the management team in place is hungry and not afraid of change. In addiiton PASSION, there will also be HARD WORK, failed attempts, good news, and bad news. In the end, there will be a company taking back its good name.

Thanks,
Brent

I think Penn is one of those classic cases of a company trying to market a product in the "middle" ...

...between lower-end and high-end reels.

And losing share to both. :rolleyes:

OUCH!!!

MikeCC, How about this for believing: Within five years, Penn will regain any lost ground from the past 15 year hiatus and move to the top of the food chain once again. Don't worry, there are still many that believe in Penn, and this includes Dealers up and down and around the coast. And as far as believing, Penn believes in Dealers that believe in us.

Here we are, launching new, improved, and revolutionary products and/or accessories; not really the sign of a company that does not believe in itself. What about the new Penn Dura-Drag, the Baja Special, the 118 new rods that we designed for 2005, the new fishing line that we launched this January, the new XXXX and XXXX-X that we can't talk about yet? I don't get the impression that we don't believe in ourselves, quite the contrary...
BK

I have a 560 Slammer and when I first used the reel I really liked it. Was very smooth and seemed to have a good drag. Maybe it is just me but whenever I dunk this reel, the drag is almost non-existant. One thing I think would have been a good idea is to have put a bronze main gear on the slammer instead of whatever that metal is on there now. I broke a couple of teeth on the main gear this past season.

Again, please feel free to email with specific questions.

Thanks for the commentary and opportunity to reply. THere will always be those that hate, disagree with everything we are doing, and have nothing but negative to say. Great, bring it on; Penn can't be everything to everyone. As long as we are making reels/rods/products that I can personally say I would fish with, I'm a happy camper. Have a great season, and tight lines to all.

Looking forward to some emails with specific questions.

Best regards,
Brent

And a big horrah for Penn! In China, it is estimated by many that of the 10 million children out of school, over 5 million are working in factories! Labor cost will drop, prices will go up and we get :bshake: :af: IMO, you sold your soul to the devil :devil2:

Do you own any Ticas? Guess where they are made?

Penn's a little late to the game outsourcing their manufacturing to the Chinese. :bshake:

Not sure why the drag would disappate when dunked, as you should have a sealed drag knob, and with the drag under-the-spool, there is much less chance for water to intrude. Check to see if the drab knob has a small gasket, if not, I would recommend picking up another one from your local Penn Dealer or call our Parts department. If you have the gasket, I'd then check to make sure the drag plate is screwed down. Other than that, I don't have an answer.

I guess I should also find out, are you wetsuiting with the reel, or is this an occassional wave breaking over you that is causing this to occur. If wetsuiting, I would recommend a drag lube that will help keep water from instruding. I would also disassemble the reel after each trip, and rebuild, as the Slammer is not a water proof reel like the Van Staal.

As far as the main gear, I believe it is a hardened naval bronze, so I am not sure why there would be any problems. Without seeing the reel, or the condition is was in, I am working blind, so I won't try to guess what the issue might be. Has this been repaired already? If not, I would love to have it sent to me for evaluation.

Feel free to get back to me at your convenience.
BK

No ticas in my closet, but I guess there is a little china in everything we own in some way or another :(

Yup, labor is cheap in CHina. Once they get their act together it will be cheap somewhere else. It is a pretty simple math equation to perform. Take a spinning reel that is more labor intensive to assemble than it is to make the parts, take one very well-paid US worker versus the on-going rate of a CHinese factory worker. One of our US workers will pay for an entire assembly line. Factor in the fact that Penn was losing more than $3million per year at our Spinning Reel Factory, and we were faced with three decisions:
1. Stop selling spinning reels altogether. Save a $3mil lost, stop selling all spinning reek products, while foreign competition continues to pump reel after reel into the market.

2. Make Reels in the US and lose $3mil/yr or double or triple the price of our reels Not an option. We would be better off with the first option.

or...

3. Close US Factory, save $3mil/year, help find employment and do the right thing for displaced employees, and import spinning reels that are made to Penn specifications so Penn can make money and keep employing the three hundred other US workers at Penn. Someone inside our group said this best, It is not how many people we are losing, but how many we can save.

What is you decision if faced with these three options??? Sold our soul to the devil? I think not. Walk a mile before casting the first accussation. No one likes what is going on, but at the end of the day, a company has to be profitable and viable if it is to survive.

How about an incentive for moving offshore courtesy of our good goverment and their abiliity to tax. Here is an interesting little tax we all pay, the Federal Excise tax levied on all fishing related products. In its simplest form, this is a 10% tax paid on all fishing products. It is calculated upon the first price paid for an item when it is sold in the US. So when Penn sells an item made in the US, we are already at an extreme disadvantage to our foreign compeition. What they will do is sell the product into the US at a lower value, possibly their cost, to a separate holding company, who then "sells" the product back to their US counterpart company. OK, so it costs them $1 to sell an item, and they pay a 10cent tax on this. They can then markup the item to distributors and dealers at a disadvantage to Penn because we must pay the 10% on the first price sold (often to distributors). So lets say instead of the $1 our competition is selling their product at, we are at $8. Our tax is 80cents compared to their 10cents. This is a very elementary version of what takes place, but I am sure anyone can get an idea how we are already behind the proverbial 8-ball with foreign competition.

Penn is trying to keep jobs in the US, and will do so to the best of our abilities, but the tackle industry is the laggard in the great outsourcing project that is China. Take a look at just about any textile, clock, toaster, microwave, etc. Manufacturing is becoming more and more impossible in the US, and we are managaging to maintain a lion share of our reels as still being built in the US.

Brent Kane

...don't forget this is an innovation-driven product category... (= R&D, and *cough* user input) :spin:

...and it's also marketing-driven... ya think Shimano spends more on marketing dollars (including retail dealer incentives) than Penn does? :usd:

Where is the market for reels going? :lurk:

BK - I don't think there are many that hate Penn or at least won't warm back up to Penn if the company gets its sheet together. I think Penn can win a lot of them back but it will take a combination of savy and dependable product, a true and noticeable commitment from Penn to the customer base (maybe this is the start? Hope so but not holding my breath) and MADE in USA product.
For years, that Made in USA was the make or break for a lot of people to chose from your product over the Shimanos and Daiwas of the world. Buying Made in the USA when the product sucks The product of recent years has not been of sufficient design and quality to stand above the better imported reels. Right now, especially with the condition of the Penn product in the state that it is in, there is little incentive to buy a Penn over another reel. Forget about Saltigas and Stellas, why buy a Slammer over a Stradic? If you are one of those that believe it is a toss up in quality on the reel, many might buy the Penn because it is made here instead of by the People's Liberation Army.

As for the graphite - I checked a couple out but nothing gave me the warm and fuzzies that I had to go and trade one of my Stradics in for one. As for the size reel I fish? 220yds of 12 # test ( BTW - your website is screwed up on the line sizes) is not going to do it for me. A Slammer 560 has borderline capacity for where I feel I need to be for surf fishing. I typically run about 170-180 yards of braid on one of my conventionals, 300 braid/mono on my 975. This is for what I consider average surf fishing for stripers. That graphite 5500g for "Trophy" fish ain't big enough for the trophys I chase. Hate to see what someone chasing bigger fish from shore would need. A 7500 or 8500 is too unwieldy for plugging although it has sufficient capacity. But then there is the bail thing...

Right now, I don't think Penn has enough of the right stuff to get me purchase their product. I've owned a few Penns, I am (was) one of your customers. Time is going to tell if I decide to purchase a Penn reel again. It won't happen if it is more of the same. If the company is truly turning the corner maybe I will. I won't buy one if it is made in China - that much I can say. Philosophical problem. I try not to buy from there when I truly have a choice. I will consider Taiwan. Putting my money where my mouth is...

I truly would like to see that with a US made product. As for Penn belieiving in dealers that believe in Penn. Mike was one of your biggest supporters. He runs a first class shop. I don't entirely recall what some of the Mickey Mouse rules were for being a Gold Dealer but but there is soome Mickey Mouse - something like you need to carry X type of other reels from Penn, whether it is your market or not, or you need to carry a crappy reel as well or both, I don't remember correctly and I went looking for the thread but could not find it. Mike is the kind of shop you WANT to be a Gold Dealer. Knowlegeable, helpful, stands behind the product.

BTW - we DO appreciate your sitting in on this thread and discussing this with us. This is a very good start. So while it may appear that you are getting hammered, OK - you are a little bit - it is not personal, but a very rare time that Penn is taking upon itself or maybe just you, to connect with their buyers.... It is very appreciated. where it leads as well as other changes Penn makes down the road will mean a lot for people moving back to the Penn name....

Hey Eben - do you still have that picture of the PennStaal from SOL? I think BK needs some inspiration :hihi:

If it is cheaper to make the spinners in China, why isn't cheaper to make the conventionals there?Maybe they're not losing money for you, but it's only a matter of time before some bean counter uses the migrated China spinner model across the board.
Then, who is gonna be buying these reels?
I don't blame you - everyone's doing it, but it's a recipe for disaster IMO.
If you design a better product, with outstanding service, and parts - you should be able to make a go of it here.I own a lot of Penns, and some of them are older than me - you can still get parts for them.
But then, I like Snap-on tools.
.
Advertising catches people's attention.


Reputations are much harder to come by, but infinately more valuable

bk iam not trying to p you off.mikecc is a great dealer i bought a reel from him a month ago i wanted better drag washers put in not only did he have the washers in stock but he put them in free of charge while i wated.i owen 6 penn reels.i wish penn made a 660 slammer they need to up grade the 704 .when i used to read MADE IN USA on the penn box it made me proud.snake slinger

These discussions are GREAT! It is nice to know that Penn is listening lets hope the folks on the board can help change things.

BK thanks for listening and adding your input!

Not Eben's Penn Stall, but BM's Von Penn..... :devil2:

I was thinking the same thing , Lurch. It took more than a little guts to offer an e-mail address to the potential avalanche of angry mail BK could face every morning. Just let me say this: I own at least a dozen Penn reels all but one work well. The one that doesn't has a graphite rotor that keeps breaking and won't be fixed yet again. It was replaced with a 460. The non-Penn reels that I own number about 4. None of them still work, and never will again because of parts availability. Let's just say that they were tuition in the School of Hard Knocks. I'll stick with Penn. Thanks BK for showing up.

The first step that penn should have asked well before it got to 3 mil or even 1 Mil is why are we loosing money. Product support?? If Penn had addressed the issues long ago this would not be an issue.
If Penn is serious about this they should fix the problems.

The main people who supported penn were verterans. Now if they do not have a choice of US made spinners they may as well choose the best feel and fit. If Penn can step up than fine if not only time will tell.

I hope Penn regains a lot of ground.

I also hope that penn listens to this message . There is a lot of knowledge on this board . Reels that we have been asking for years. Most of us feel that nobody has listened. You are a step in the right direction.

You don't want to get me going on the short comings of some of new products and gold lable program.I do like the swimsuites tho :hee:

As far as line every one and their brother has new line . The reason Pure fishing aquiring Stren and the big 3 Wholesalers cant sell pure fishing products.
The biggest profit market is line so why not lets make it someone has to fill the gap.

I think if you check I am not your run of the mill tackle dealer. I know the products better than most reps that are supose to show it.
This area is where most companys fail on their products we do not want yes men we want some one who knows the product. I will say on one of the worst snow storms in years Penn reps were at the NET show. Most reps never showed.

If you want to talk call me at the shop on wednesday I'm sure we can have a constructive talk 508-291-0820