I was going to but the old adage of "Teaching a Pig to sing" came to mind.

yes and that minority is called 'intelectual free thinkers' :hihi: I claim membership as well.

I've heard it called other names too. :humpty:

genious comes to mind.

No singing necessary, just admit you're wrong and all is right :hihi:

-spence

Okay, I'm sure you already know the words but repeat after me: :wave:
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya,
Kumbaya, my Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaja.
Someone`s singing, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya,
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s praying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s crying, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping Lord, Kumbaya,
someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya.
Someone`s sleeping, Lord, Kumbaya, oh, Lord, Kumbaya.

:wavey:

Snipr is a very articulate and well reasoned debater. A master debater of sorts you could say :bshake:

It must be difficult when you post facts that refute your own argument :rotfl:

-spence

That was good but for the full effect it needs to be sung in a high pitched whiny voice. :grins:

I like the American version better though.

Kumbaya #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Kumbaya #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Moneys in the freezer #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
But thats okay #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Documents in the sock #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
But thats okay #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Vote for a war #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Then Run Away #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Your President was impeached #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Your President was disbarred #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
He says there was WMD #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Was he lying #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&? Kumbaya
Oh #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& Kumbaya
Someones praying #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Sue their ass #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Hate the rich #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Unless it's you #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Blood for oil #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Dont drill here #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
Move to France #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya
You'd like it better #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&, Kumbaya

Oh #^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^& Kumbaya :thanks:

*sigh*

i don't know about you guys, but most of the illegal aliens i see around me work their gazoongas off to send money back to their families. most of these are mexicans, etc.

they take jobs nobody wants. they do unsafe and dirty work nobody does. compared to the rest of us they are willing to work for peanuts. they do it without benefits (well, except in cali). they crib in groups and eat instant noodles 24/7 to save money. their work ethic put some of us to shame.

i can't help but have a sincere admiration for these people living on hardscrabble, regardless of how they got here.

did i mention many are serving in our armed forces, fighting and dying for the rest of us? and they're not citizens.

your perspective might depend on where you live. people who live in Cali and the southern border states (Texas for example) might be up their eyeballs in illegal-related crime. here on the east coast, i don't see it that much. maybe i am out of touch.

the reality is that they are here and more than a few of us find that for the most part they are wanted/needed.

we really should have some kind of guest worker program, to legitimize their presence here (take a headcount and collect tax revenue!).

i'm not saying we have to offer citizenship or even certain benefits (is it fair for them to take benefits once they start paying taxes?), but there ought to be a way to track 'em - allow the law-abiding productive ones to come and go and keep the bad apples out.

i feel bad for immigrants in a post-9/11 world. it really sucks for them now. i have a lot of co-workers here who are here on a work-visa. if they get laid off by their employer, they have no choice but to hunt for another sponsor (not easy!) or be deported. i don't know if i could live with that kind of nerve-wracking uncertainty.

NFW!

Wow, you'll twist anything in defense of illegal immigration wont you?

Yes, I guess I did go a little overboard on your debating ability :humpty:

-spence

Illegal aliens and immigrants here on a valid work visa are two completley different issues. While I sympatihize with the plight of those workers who are in danger of losing their sponsor I feel worse for the skilled trades workers who spent the winter on unemployment while illegal immigrants performed their jobs for a fraction of the money. Framing, roofing, sheet rocking, tiling etc. etc. are not jobs Americans dont want to do.

I noticed you still haven't voted in the poll. :rotf2:

The fact that the average illegal alien household (those that aren't working under the table) paid in 2002, $4,912in taxes and cost the government $6,949 in expenses supports my argument, not yours. Where is that huge offset you were refering to? And while you are at it, what exactly is your point? Are you trying to convince somebody that we should chill out about illegal immigration, its not that bad? When was the last time someone in your industry was under-bid by unlicensed, uninsured, unqualifed criminals? How many employees did you lay-off in the past year because their work was lost to illegal immigrants? But I guess if it doesn't effect you personally it's all good, right? Why don't you try supporting those who are trying to earn a living in their own country for a decent wage, it's the decent thing to do.

Read my own posts again you shrimp-less fool!

My response was in context of your absurd statement that...

Which you have yet to back up with a single fact!

The chart you keep citing as evidence is comparing a net loss per illegal with an average based on a progressive tax system. The legal tax payers only slightly break even because the rich pay most of the taxes.

You don't even know your own GOP talking points!

Keep digging :wave:

-spence

The rich pay most of the taxes? You don't even know your own Code-Pink Talking points!

Catch up with the real world and understand this isn't about politics it's about real people, real jobs, real facts and real dollars. Downplay it all you want..........where are those facts on the huge offset that you used as an unsupported argument again? And seeing how you avoided the questions I guess we can assume you weren't under-bid by unlicensed, uninsured, unqualifed criminals, or were forced to lay-off employees in the past year because their work was lost to illegal immigrants, so no problem. I can read off the top of my head dozens of guys who have lost jobs to illegals, but I can't think of a single one who has lost anything to the disruption of global energy supplies. Ask them what's the biggest threat. Thanks for validating the singing pig theory (again).

:lurk:

The real world? Are you 'effin kidding me???

In the real world US Corporations screw over millions of legal workers in the name of shareholder value on a continual basis.

You seem to have let your emotion override your judgement and reason.

-spence

Ok, after a good nights sleep I came to the realization you're just a flaming hypocrite and just don't know it :)

The illegal immigration from Mexico doesn't come from all over Mexico, it's really more from specific areas that are really economically depressed. The people of Mexico tend to be more socialist than in the USA ...where we put the emphasis on personal responsibility (i.e. pull yourself up by your own bootstraps).

Those crossing the border, and most other Mexicans see the illegal immigrants as victims of a system that's not protecting them by providing economic security.

Your complaint seems to either be directed as those doing what they have to to make a living and provide for their families, or a government who isn't enforcing the law.

Regardless, you're applying the same victim mentality on your own people that you can't protect.

You sound very much like the Mexican's I've spoken with about the subject.

Think about it.

-spence

the best way to curb illegal immigration is to build a thriving middle class in the countries of origin. like mexico. not necessarily in our hands, and it will take time.

in the meantime, with the housing slump we are in right now, wouldn't be surprised if a lot of guys are going back home ... because of layoffs. there are only so many guys who can mow lawns and prune trees, etc.

don't forget that illegals have to buy stuff. they pay sales/consumption tax like the rest of us do. not sure that is embedded in a lot of cost-benefit assumptions.

My complaint is directed at those who choose to break laws to make a living and the government that chooses not to enforce those laws, yep you got that right. In the world I come from making a living and providing for your family is not an excuse to break the law. The fact that they come from a more socialist society does not nullify the laws of our country.

So you have a Mexican government not providing for some of it's people, and US corporations who are breaking the law by employing (hence attracting) these people.

And your anger is directed toward those trying to make a living?

Sounds like it's misplaced.

Oh, wait...I forgot.

This is the largest economic threat to our country! :rotflmao:

-spence

Oh yeah, I forgot you people aren't into blaming criminals. Why dont you just accept total responsibility, it'll make you feel all warm and fuzzy. :love:

Not at all...

I'm simply doing a root cause analysis. You cite illegal immigration as, what was it?

When illegal immigration is not the real problem. The issue has to do with the Mexican government's inability to provide for its people and our consumer driven economy looking for the best bang for the buck.

This has more to do with physics than politics, it's a matter of ENTROPY :happy:

-spence

An observation-
Stripersniper proposed that illegal imigration is the greatest threat to our economy.

Spence said it wasnt.

Now stripersniper is accusing spence of SUPPORTING illegal imigration.


I doubt spence supports it.

carry on

Well said Ben

When near to totally wrong point out something a Democrat did wrong :fishslap:

Nope, I dont think he does. We just disagree on the severity of the problem.