So nobody knows. :huh:

TARP is still fictional.
Those with the biggest leverage get the goods.

The pensions are federally guaranteed - but the pensioners will only get about a third of what they would have gotten.
GM directly employs about 250,000 people. It used to be 1 out of 6 jobs was tied to the auto industry nationwide - but not so anymore. I think CNN's numbers are alarmist - I don't think 1 out of 10 people will lose their jobs nationwide as a result of the auto industry collaspe, but I think it would certainly be several million to ten million. As bad as the 260,000 job losses we had last month - it would be much, much worse. Major reverberations across the economy. Million plus job loss figures month after month won't go over to well on Wall St.
Interesting that the collaspe of GM only got about 2 1/2 minutes on the national news - imagine how big a story that would have been even a couple of years ago?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IocCC1-jeTY
Sinking - Like A Rock

Just so folks know....even if they get the bailout you can bet your bottom dollar they will be cutting jobs in their restructuring process......but the fat cats at the top will still be getting all theirs!

1/3 of what the had signed up for, nice. Because they turned them over to be paid by you and me. Just like , UAL, PanAm,and PennCentral.

How much will American Axle emps get?

So we guarenteed the railroad pensions and they were exempt from paying social security? Am I wrong here?

Correct

CONING SOON!
 

The Argentinean government recently announced that they would send a proposal to the Congress by which the Pension and Retirement Plan Administration or AFJP in Spanish (also known as mutual funds in the US) would become nationalized. The AFJP privately manages millions of Argentineans' retirement funds, and under the proposal, their funds would now go to the State. The political debate will go to National Congress, but many blogs have commented on the possible changes.

On the side of those who oppose, there are two quite evident arguments: that this is a sacking of a lot of Argentineans' retirement contributions, and the only reason for this change is to increase the government's revenues in the short term. Guillermo Riera of Demasiada Información [es] states:

De seguir con el sistema de reparto, en veinte años el Estado estará imposibilitado para pagar jubilación alguna, sencillamente porque habrá tantos jubilados que no habrá recaudación que alcance.

By staying in the public system, twenty years from now the government will be unable to pay any retirement benefits at all, simply because there will be so many retired people, that there won't be enough funds for them all. :doh:

SOUND FAMILIAR ????

They want a bail out fine, since it is my tax dollars the gov should give me a check made out to GM for the price of the vehicle I want, Gm should sell me the truck of my choice for 3,000.00 over cost that way they get their money back and then some, and I the tax payer get something for giving to corporate welfare.

IMO the Gov should have required every Bank that takes money to give some kind of credit the mortgage holders....

Lost income tax revenues, pension liabilities, increased unemployment compensation, foreclosures on home owners with upside-down equity, loss of value to stocks upon release high unemployment numbers, increased burden from people without health insurance, increased trade inbalance...
Those are some of the certain costs of GM failing - those events are a certainty.
Any way you slice it, its still sh_t pie. If you bail them out and they survive - its a huge win. But if you bail them out and they fail, its an even worse loss.

sh_t pie is going to be on the table for a lot of families this Thanksgiving

And just to add gravy to the pie. The person responsible for drafting the bailout bill for the House Financial Committee is none other than our own 'Hard Bottom' Barney Frank.

HE'S DOING HIS PART
 

to bail out the auto industry....

In front of a crowd of 75,000 people in Portland, Oregon, Barack Obama made the following statement:

“We can’t drive our SUVs and eat as much as we want and keep our homes on 72 degrees at all times … and then just expect that other countries are going to say OK”
Obama's limo will be a Caddy like no other

After President Obama takes the oath of office in January, he may have a shiny new black limousine to go along with his not-so-new White House. General Motors is believed to be putting the final touches on a new first car.
...
The photographer noted that the limousine was being tested, possibly for comparison purposes, with a pair of GMC Topkick medium-duty trucks. The limousine seemed to be riding on the same 19 1/2-inch Goodyear Regional RHS tires as the trucks, indicating that it is far heavier than a civilian Cadillac - even the longest stretch limousines built with the GM division's heavy-duty coachbuilder package. Indeed, it is believed that the limo is based on GM's 2500 line of trucks, which includes an extra-heavy-duty version of the Suburban.
...
Aircraft tie-downs welded to the chassis allow the limousine to be transported aboard a military cargo jet, which also often carries the Secret Service's Suburban escort vehicles and at least one limo used as a backup or decoy.

Don't forget the 2 presidential 747's

If they want our money
 

Until its all paid back: not one bonus is given,
not one raise is given,
thier are no fancy trips to exotic locales
for board of directors meetings,
not one golden parchute is awarded,

and anyone caught mispending money, that was given by us, the American people, to any company we bailed out, in any way shape or form is sent to jail.

It should be our choice not thiers.

Yeah, let them live like us for a while... You're dead on, Swimmer.

Source?

For the most part, US Toyota and Honda plants are non union. They tend to build their plants in areas where unionized laborers are not found. Attempts to unionize by the UAW have mostly failed. There may be a few unionized plants, but all of the big three plants ARE unionized. And there is a clear difference.

They say the average GM car has $1,500 tied up in health care costs in it. The average Toyota has about $110. The big three are failing. Is entirely the fault of Unions? probably not

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/num...ing-uaw-plant/

"GM and Toyota formed NUMMI (New United Motor Manufacturing Inc.) in 1984. The Fremont, California facility was Toyota’s first foray into American manufacturing and GM’s chance to learn about Toyota’s take on lean manufacturing. The 380-acre NUMMI facility currently cranks-out approximately 250k cars (Toyota Corolla, Pontiac Vibe) and 170k trucks (Toyota Tacoma) per year.

The NUMMI plant employs around 5440 “team members.” Some 4550 of these employees also play for the UAW. This makes NUMMI the only Toyota plant using UAW labor and one of the highest-labor-cost manufacturing facilities in the entire American automotive industry."

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/uaw-affirms-4-year-pact-mitsubishi/story.aspx?

Mitsubishi Motors North America and the United Auto Workers said on Saturday that the union's members at the Normal, Ill., plant ratified a new four-year accord.
The deal expires Aug. 30, 2012, and covers 1,264 members of UAW Local 2488, the union said.
"The agreement includes provisions guaranteeing that production will continue" at the plant through August 2012 and provides job security for the workers, while keeping the company competitive in the U.S. market, Mitsubishi

A little tidbit, post WWII, the Americans sent some of our best process engineers to Japan to teach what would become "lean" processing and six sigma. The Japanese mastered the techniques which have led to Japan being a leader in technology and eventually the automotive industry.
These techniques have been taught in the US (again) for decades but they have never been fully implemented by the US auto industry.

Same thing happened to the electronics industries in the U.S. this is history repeting itself and the govt. did not bail them out.

ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN OPERATE LIKE THIS
 

Total compensation per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That’s a 52 percent differential from Toyota’s (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages + health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59.

==============================
there's to much bait and switch going on....these days... :hs:

a law gets passed then it gets transformed again
( California gay marriage is a perfect example )

everything seems to have flip flop built right into it

all of W's work is going to be reversed by Obama
which is probably a great idea, but it's difficult to make progress
if there's no consistency in anything.

The kicker is that when all these homeless unemployed folks stop making credit card payments. Unsecured debt beyond gozillions. Won't be any bail out for that sinking ship.

Those are some scary numbers. Pretty easy to see, right there, why the big three cannot compete or even survive for that matter.

We always joked, when I was part of the group handling the GM benefits systems, that $1200 of every car sold was for benefits.

We had a significant problem in that GM had no way of tracking dependents of insuree's. You got family coverage with no copay, and continued with that benefit regardless of death, divorce, children over 18, etc.

We tried to get insuree's to register dependents during Annual Enrollment but, had little success in getting turnout to do so, we were hindered by the union in communicating to its constituents

on retooling...
 

As for bailout conditions that require any car company that gets taxpayer money demonstrate a plan for transforming every vehicle in its fleet to a hybrid-electric engine with flex-fuel capability, so its entire fleet can also run on next generation cellulosic ethanol.

There is already an auto company that does this. In addition to sedans, it offers hybrid models in even its largest SUVs. This company is also the industry’s largest investor in cellulosic ethanol production, and every model it makes is flex-fuel capable.

This company’s name? General Motors. Obviously, there’s more to profitability than being green.

Great thread and interesting reading the responses after being away for a few days.

All I have to say is buy plugs please I don't want to fillout the 47 page bailout application :hee:

Yeah it has nothing to do with the fact that the company execs make an exorbitant salary (way more than they deserve)(not to mention absolutely ridiculous bonuses) and that they expense all these lavish trips and perks and benny's for themselves........but hey......lets US ALL take a hit, bail them out, give them billions with no idea how or when we will get it back.....and then STILL watch them layoff untold numbers of people during their restructuring process! Sure....lets help them!!!:angel::huh:

Why not, we're doing it with the friggin financial organizations.
We are only givin the big 3 25 billion worth from TARP

The bailout application is only TWO i repeat TWO pages long!!!Credit card applications are longer and not for billions of dollars.