This argument/thread has jumped off the tracks. All it has proven is what we already knew. Spence is an apologist, Eben is conflicted and Jim is trying to convert people.

Get this in your heads Hilary will not be prosecuted she will probably be the Dem Nominee for president. She is divisive and she has won the money vote thus far. get used to it. The presidential election is akin to the WWE pure entertainment.
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Bernie sanders will be the DEM nominee
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Never going to happen the DNC recognizes more than we do that while people in our area of the country and the left coast can look past the "socialist" label most of the states that don't touch salt water will not be able to see past that. If he runs independent he will only pull votes from the nominated candidate that will be Clinton. She is a criminal but they all are
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We shall see...
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http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/7937906
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Keep this thread for your derailment and roll back the personal attacks

I am fascinated to see how that's going to play out. Hilary is still polling ahead of Bernie, I believe, in most places (not New Hampshire, but that's his backyard).

If it looks like Bernie is a real threat, then someone else will run - Biden, Gore, or Kerry. I don't think the DNC can let it be Bernie Sanders, that might be the best thing that could happen to the GOP.

I'll vote for Bernie if he promises to make all colleges and universities free, I have three that need to go soon and I want to raise taxes on Spence to pay for it....that wasn't a personal attack was it?

I don't think it's that important that Bernie actually gets the nomination. What the Dems need now are rational voices that set the tone for the election...even with high negatives Hillary will still have a good shot at winning if the debate is about issues and not her.

It will always be about Hillary, as she has character faults and
can't be trusted. One current pole states 57% of those polled
don't trust her; She is just a tiring old Politician.
The country is looking for a new direction.

Hey you can always get behind the new guy who's shining moment was reciting green eggs and ham...I mean that is some brilliant thinking!
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fixed it for "context"....i hope we have not sunk this low as a country

we don't elect issues, we elect people, electing a dirtbag and/or liar because they tell you that they support your issue puts a dirtbag and/or liar in a place of power to be a dirtbag and liar on a greater scale....that is stupid....you have to be deaf, dumb and blind to think that Hillary has any business being anywhere near the Whitehouse at this point

Totally agreed
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Funny, she's beating nearly every GOP contender in the Iowa polls which isn't exactly liberal territory.

I guess those Iowans must be pretty deaf, dumb and blind.

Just comes to show what a train wreck the GOP has become.
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you've got more than a dozen choices and some "impressive resumes" in the field...still split many ways whereas the dems have essentially 2 and one should be in jail...

that she still polls well anywhere and that some revel in the fact that she does, just comes to show what a remarkably sad state our nation is in....

That is true as well.
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if you cozy up to google you'll find she was a detestable human being...a Progressive and eugenist


these quotes are hers...hard to take them out of context...and she was prolific with her opinions so it's not hard to pin her down

In her 1922 book The Pivot of Civilization, Sanger wrote: The lack of balance between the birth-rate of the “unfit” and the “fit” [is] admittedly the greatest present menace to the civilization. . . . The example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit, and therefore less fertile, parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem to-day is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Sanger again: Modern studies indicate that insanity, epilepsy, criminality, prostitution, pauperism, and mental defect, are all organically bound up together and that the least intelligent and the thoroughly degenerate classes in every community are the most prolific. Feeble-mindedness in one generation becomes pauperism or insanity in the next. There is every indication that feeble-mindedness in its protean forms is on the increase, that it has leaped the barriers, and that there is truly, as some of the scientific eugenists [sic] have pointed out, a feeble-minded peril to future generations – unless the feeble-minded are prevented from reproducing their kind. To meet this emergency is the immediate and peremptory duty of every State and of all communities.

Sounds on point to me. I certainly would want a feeble minded yet sexually active person to have access to free birth control. Wouldn't you scott ?
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maybe a little more...these folks Eben, found any physical or mental "handicap" and various traits to be a "defect", being in poverty is mentioned... they were interested in breeding out of society and eliminating what they considered lesser qualities as they determined them to be ..."dysgenic" breeding versus selective....very high-minded academic elitist stuff


"As an advocate of Birth Control, I wish to take advantage of the present opportunity to point out that the unbalance between the birth rate of the "unfit" and the "fit", admittedly the greatest present menace to civilization, can never be rectified by the inauguration of a cradle competition between these two classes. In this matter, the example of the inferior classes, the fertility of the feeble-minded, the mentally defective, the poverty-stricken classes, should not be held up for emulation to the mentally and physically fit though less fertile parents of the educated and well-to-do classes. On the contrary, the most urgent problem today is how to limit and discourage the over-fertility of the mentally and physically defective.

Birth Control is not advanced as a panacea by which past and present evils of dysgenic breeding can be magically eliminated. Possibly drastic and Spartan methods may be forced upon society if it continues complacently to encourage the chance and chaotic breeding that has resulted from our stupidly cruel sentimentalism.

But to prevent the repetition, to effect the salvation of the generations of the future–nay of the generations of today–our greatest need is first of all the ability to face the situation without flinching, and to cooperate in the formation of a code of sexual ethics based upon a thorough biological and psychological understanding of human nature; and then to answer the questions and the needs of the people with all the intelligence and honesty at our command. If we can summon the bravery to do this, we shall best be serving the true interests of Eugenics, because our work will then have a practical and pragmatic value."

Wasn't fooled by the "new guy" Obama or his Sheeple from day one and have a long way to go before a decision in 2016.

I don't know all the answers, still learning, but know trust worthiness will be high on the list of my choice.

I'm fascinated by the fact that I read that and find it incredibly offensive and you find it on point...

a little more Sanger

“While I personally believe in the sterilization of the feeble-minded, the insane and syphilitic, I have not been able to discover that these measures are more than superficial deterrents when applied to the constantly growing stream of the unfit. They are excellent means of meeting a certain phase of the situation, but I believe in regard to these, as in regard to other eugenic means, that they do not go to the bottom of the matter.” (“Birth Control and Racial Betterment,” Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

“Eugenics without birth control seems to us a house builded upon the sands. It is at the mercy of the rising stream of the unfit” (“Birth Control and Racial Betterment,” Feb. 1919, The Birth Control Review).

“Stop our national habit of human waste.” (“Woman and the New Race,” 1920, Chapter 6).

“By all means, there should be no children when either mother or father suffers from such diseases as tuberculosis, gonorrhea, syphilis, cancer, epilepsy, insanity, drunkenness and mental disorders. In the case of the mother, heart disease, kidney trouble and pelvic deformities are also a serious bar to childbearing No more children should be born when the parents, though healthy themselves, find that their children are physically or mentally defective.” (“Woman and the New Race,” 1920, Chapter 7).

“The main objects of the Population Congress would be to apply a stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is tainted, or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring[;] to give certain dysgenic groups in our population their choice of segregation or sterilization.” (“A Plan for Peace,” 1932).

If Hillary so admires Sanger, it is logical that she would be against the immigration of all those "inferior" folks entering across our southern border. And since anti-social, criminal behavior is a kind of mental disorder, She would, at least, be against giving citizenship to those who illegally cross that border, and even against letting them stay in any case. Unless, of course, they chose to be sterilized, or to be segregated, and have no right to vote or influence society in any way.

At least she has the contraception thing down. Except she wants to provide it for all women, even the "fit" ones. She's not a hypocrite there. She did her part. She only had one child. But that is not a model for even maintaining current population, much less for expanding it and the economy as well. Well, that fits in well with the notion that humans are a sort of cancer on the environment. Even the "fit" ones . . . I guess.

So, what's Bernie's view on the illegal immigrants here . . . or those to come?

Can you cite that poll you are referring to? This poll has her trailing Bush, Walker, and Rubio in Iowa, Colorado, and VA. Obama won all 3 of those states twice. So I don't think they are deep red territory, are they?

http://www.politico.com/story/2015/0...wa-120450.html

Nebe, have you forgotten what happened 9 months ago? November 2014 ring a bell? Was that day a "train wreck" for the GOP? Who controls most of the state legislatures and governorships? Who controls both houses of Congress? When did the GOP become this train wreck? Like them or not, they clobbered the Dems last November.

Scott Walker, Marco Rubio, Ben Carson, are train wrecks? I don't see it. According to the Quinnipiac University poll, neither do the people of Iowa.

As fr Margaret Sanger, a large group of black ministers submitted a petition to have her likeness removed from the Smithsonian, due to her disgusting views. Spence immediately comes to her defense.

Some conservatives have exaggerated some of her quotes for political capital. But when you boil it down to her comments that cannot be separated from her, it's vile.

her words don't really need any exaggerating

“I admire Margaret Sanger enormously,” Secretary Clinton had said in March, “her courage, her tenacity, her vision . . . And when I think about what she did all those years ago in Brooklyn, taking on archetypes, taking on attitudes and accusations flowing from all directions, I am really in awe of her.”

it's always hard to tell isn't it? and when they do tell, it's often hard to judge what is true or not....seems the modern progressives learned a lesson from the early progressives who, as shown were pretty blunt with their views, modern progressives have learned the important skills of deception and phony compassion which attempt to disguise pretty cold and callous views and ulterior motives....we get to see a peak occasionally and it's not pretty... we know that Bernie, while an "independent socialist" did co-found the congressional progressive caucus which lists as one of it's "non-profit organization most closely associated" as The National Council of La Raza (NCLR) "It advocates in favor of progressive immigration reform policies"

Sanders is getting criticism for some "straddling" but I did read this clarification of his stance after comments to Ezra Klein

"Sanders is strongly in favor of legalization and citizenship for the current unauthorized immigrant population, which will raise wages and lift labor standards for all workers, and he’s against expanding U.S. temporary foreign worker programs, which allow employers to exploit and underpay so-called guestworkers. Limiting guestworker programs will reduce wage suppression and improve labor standards for U.S. and migrant workers alike.


When it comes to the number one priority for immigration reform—legalizing the unauthorized immigrant population in the United States—Sanders has said time and time again that they should be legalized immediately and put on a path to citizenship, and he’s highlighted their contributions to the American economy. Sanders could not be any clearer about this. He voted for the 2013 comprehensive reform bill that would have legalized most of the unauthorized population, despite his misgivings about the large expansion of high- and low-skilled guestworker programs in the bill, which shows the importance he ascribes to legalization. Sanders understands that having eight million people working in the U.S. labor market without labor and employment rights puts downward pressure on the wages and working conditions of all workers. He has not failed to point this out. There’s no question that Sanders’ desire for legalization of the unauthorized population is consistent with his broader agenda to see wages rise for workers in the United States.


I'm actually ok with this as long as we get to send 1 progressive off to the socialist paradise of their choice for every two undocumented Americans that we make whole and legal