Apparently, the whole world, today, believes in democracy. Whoopee!! But Progressives view of liberty . . . well . . . let's put it this way . . . Progressives have a new view or definition of the old language. Liberty is, like all other words, what Progressivism says it is. The historical record and current practice of Progressive ideology says that "liberty" is whatever government and its experts allows it to be.

"Unfortunately *any* measures to restrict *any* part of the process is viewed as an instant ride down the slippery slope to a dystopian militarized state devoid of liberty"

It's the inly issue I know of, on which it's almost impossible to have a rational conversation with staunch conservatives.

"Why don't other Western countries have the same issues we do?"

In terms of the mass killings? Great question. We have a very small number of very sick folks who are way more violent than the sickest folks in other countries, I guess. It's not an indictment of most Americans, just the sickest.

I have said it before the NRA is going to cost its membership dearly . with their NO as a stance on everything gun related ... be part of the solution or the solution will be nothing your going to like ....

some one posted the constitution is for limited Government and seems unlimited fire arms as well ... they want it both ways

That really makes no sense at all Jim. There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow. If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country then you may as well just say you are part of the problem too. I am past the point of denial,something is wrong.
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Jim .. Fear sells guns and ammo the NRA is a Fear broker ..(look at the sales under Obama..) The NRA and Fox news promotes the Mutually Assured Destruction theory (only a good guy with a gun mantra) ,there will be a rush to buy and ammo if there is any gun control talk... its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America

I think I did a rotten job of trying to articulate my point, sorry.

"There is a culture here in the US that is inciting this crap somehow"

I agree, but I don't know what it is. Why is our culture different from, say Germany or England? They watch the same movies, listen to the same music, right? Or look at the Dakotas. Everyone has guns, but except for what you watch on "Fargo", there is zero gun crime. Why is that?

"If you don't consider this epidemic an indictment of our country"

I don't think we have an epidemic of mass shootings. I mean one is way too many, but it's not common.

Street crime, on the other hand (like what happens in Chicago every weekend), is an epidemic and it's very easy to point to the causes.

"I am past the point of denial, something is wrong"

Oh I agree something is seriously wrong. I think our culture and moral compass need a major tune up, a return to 1950s family values, minus the racism.

"Fear sells guns"

You can say that again.

"Its sad of all the things that go into mass shooting that the right loves to throw into the conversation( and manny are correct ) the one thing always absent in their analysis is mention of the gun and and the ease to get one and the availability of guns in America"

Agreed.

And the left intentionally leaves out the violence that the entertainment industry bombards our kids with, and the horrific effect that the breakdown of the nuclear family has.

Everyone in the Dakotas has guns, but there is no crime. Because they care about each other. THERE'S THE ANSWER, to care about each other like they do. But Obama calls them bitter clingers, and Hilary calls them deplorable. And no one on the left (including the media except Foxnews) questions Obama and Hilary when they say these things.

That impedes progress, just as much as when the right says we need more guns. Both sides are thoughtlessly rigid in their ideology, both sides are close minded as can be. Both sides prevent solutions. Because we elect people based on how pretty and popular they are, or how much money they promise us, instead of electing people who care.


"

You two are meant for each other. This has nothing to do with Obama or Trump. Nothing to with R or D.
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Because it's not true. Death by firearms in the Dakota's is in the lower third of all states but it's double NY, NJ, RI, MA, HI etc...

Worst offenders were all heavy Trump states. Go figure.

There's a deeper breakdown that's creating anger in men that doesn't know how to vent and I agree it has nothing to do with politics. I read the other day that only 5% of mass shooters had a diagnoseable mental illness. While Cruz certainly had issues going after mental illness like Trump has been is just a way to excuse the violence as nothing we can address.

I don't think it has anything to do with the breakdown of the family either Jim. You love to cite stats around the breakdown of black families but mass shootings by non black killers are 5 times higher and most of that is likely gang crime.

We have evolved into a society where the influence of family units is progressively undermined by the power and influence of the larger "family," the state. It is more of an appropriation of some of the control and influence that family units had rather than a breakdown of that control and influence. Though it is resisted by many who still believe in what Jim refers to as family values, it is gladly consented to by many of the post-1960-government-educated who want to be released from total or near total responsibility.

The different "systems" produce different societal results.

R's won't budge on guns. D's won't budge on culture, morality, family values, whatever you want to call it.

When you cherry pick the way you look at the data, sometimes you can make it say what you want.

When you normalize gun deaths by state, with gun ownership by state (which is the correct way to look at it if you want to know if guns are the cause of gun deaths), deaths are very low in the Dakotas.

"I don't think it has anything to do with the breakdown of the family either Jim."

Of course you don't. That would mean conservatives have a point, and you'll never, ever concede that.

Parents who are engaged with their kids and who give a sh*t about their kids, are aware of whether or not their kids, however they got there, are at the point of snapping.

The fatherlessness in black culture has very little to do with these rare mass shootings. It has a lot to do with everyday street crime, like the 500 homicides a year in Chicago. True or false?

And I hate citing those stats. But they are worth citing when talking about things that are driven by those stats.

"it is gladly consented to by many of the post-1960-government-educated who want to be released from total or near total responsibility"

Bingo. And the results speak for themselves.

And it's gladly consented to by the idiotic masses, because abdicating responsibility for raising your kids to the schools, is a lot easier than taking on that responsibility. My life would be a lot easier if I could spend all day indulging myself instead of spending today making breakfast for 5, playing on the swings, taking one kid to basketball practice, taking another to a hitting lesson, then taking them all to see the Harlem Globetrotters. I could be drinking beer at the Springfield Camping Show instead, and letting my kids fend for themselves on the Internet. But I believe I forfeited that right when I decided to have kids (not a permanent forfeit, I can indulge myself again when my second grader is out of college, 14 more years of my being enslaved).

Spence, thanks for proving that you are just as guilty. This spree has no party affiliation. Don't associate it in such a way. Very shallow agenda Jeff
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Pffffttt...the causes might not be partisan but the desire to work on the problem most certainly is.

Jim just showed two posts above this how hard folks with old fashioned family values, many of whom are Republicans, work on the problem. What are the odds that Jim's kids will fall in love with the sexiness of an AR-15, or any other gun, and then shooting up a school full of children.

But if we insist that Trump, or federal politicians (who do such a great job in every thing else) make it better, then the problem will get "fixed." But never mind that when those politicians fix something, their solutions usually create more problems. And let's not get hung up on that their solutions tend to go astray of the Constitution and wind up in their getting more power at the expense of ours. After all, they have these wonderful, reasonable discussions with each other. And somehow get richer, more powerful, and more entrenched.

Something interesting to read
https://brenebrown.com/blog/2017/11/08/gun-reform-speaking-truth-bull#^&#^&#^&#^&-practicing-civility-affecting-change/
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But that is not the statement that I responded to Jeff,is it? If you think hard you may even recognize that you changed topics.
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It is?

So your party encouraging black teenage girls to have babies, is solving the problem?

Your party being in bed with Hollywood poisoning our kids with violence that makes them desensitized to it, is solving the problem?

Put down the Kool Aid for a split second and be honest would it kill you?

The agency was "spending too much time trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign", Mr Trump tweeted.
The White House has refused to release a photo of President Donald Trump signing a law making it easier for some people with mental illness to buy guns.

the president's own annual budget proposed this week would cuts hundreds of millions of dollars in funding for mental health programmes.


Look at what they do not what the say Trump is regurgitating what Fox news or should I say the Trump news network . Was saying after the shooting

Really Jim?

How vile this is is beyond words.

It's not so much what they did as what they didn't do. Terrible stain on this agency.
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Culture, morality, family values? Look at who the dems elected in 08 and 12 compared to who the republicans elected in 16.

You may think you are honest with yourself, but that doesn't mean what you say is factually correct. The same jack in the boxes that spew this crap to get elected are the ones cheating on their wives. The majority of the country sees through the bs of the 1950's culture you seem to think is utopia. By the way, birth rates among black and hispanic teens today are about 25% what they were in 1990 after 12 years of Republican leadership. The lowest rates by the way are all the NE states, NJ, NY, PA, VA, WI,MN, WA, UT, IA. See a trend?

God damn right, really. Read the report written by the late great liberal senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who (when he was Secretary of Labor, I think??) predicted decades ago that liberal welfare would mean the end of the black nuclear family, which would be a catastrophe for poor blacks.

When he wrote that report, people like you said "really, Mr Moynihan?"

He was exactly, 100 percent correct. To this day, liberals refuse to concede that he was right. Despite everything happening right under your noses, you deny it. That's productive.

That's liberalism. You implement a liberal idea. if it works, you say "see, liberalism works". When it fails, you stick your fingers in your ears and go "la la la la".

It's truly a vile thing to say.

It's vile to use that event as a club against those with whom you disagree. It's vile when Trump does it, and it's vile when Senator Chris Murphy does it.