FYI - Rudy was mayor from 1994 to 2001. It looks like most crimes started to go down a few year before he became mayor and continued to decrease after Rudy.

When you say "it looks like", what were you looking at? You got data that shows that NYC's crime drop didn't stick out?

I googled that question, saw this article.

University of California isn't known as a right-wing school last time I checked. Yet a law professor there said NYC's crime drop under Rudy "one of the most remarkable stories in the history of urban crime".

https://www.city-journal.org/html/ho...ory-13197.html

Here is another article. From the article:

"During the 1990s, crime rates in New York City dropped dramatically, even more than in the United States as a whole. Violent crime declined by more than 56 percent in the City, compared to about 28 percent in the nation as whole."

Meaning, NYC saw a drop that was exactly double the nationwide average.

During the 1990s, crime rates in New York City dropped dramatically, even more than in the United States as a whole. Violent crime declined by more than 56 percent in the City, compared to about 28 percent in the nation as whole.

But Rudy was a Republican, and even worse, a Trump ally. He can't have done anything good.

The crime rates (according to the chart YOU linked) started to decline BEFORE Rudy was Mayor and continued AFTER Rudy was no longer Mayor.

So it has nothing to do with Rudy being a Republican or "even worse" a Trump ally.

if his policies were left in place after he left office ( which i think? they largely were by Bloomberg), why wouldn’t the improvement continue?

he’s a republican, we get it, he can’t have good ideas

Paul, what’s happening with crime in chicago? is it all republicans committing the murders?
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I have no idea who is committing all the murders in Chicago other than they are bad people and that the majority of guns used in crimes come from other states. Is it Dems? and how do you know how they voted in the last election?

OK, Like you said, I looked at my data, compared the decrease in murder and total violent crime from 1993 (last year before Rudy) to 2001 (Rudy's last year), for NYC and the whole country.

For murders over that time, NYC saw a 60% drop (from 2,420 to 960) while the US saw a 35% drop (from 24,530 to 16,037).

For total violent crime, NYC saw a 50% drop (from 195,352 to 98,022). The US saw a drop of 25% (from 1,926,020 to 1,439,480).

Why did NYC see better decreases than the rest of the country? The difference is even more stark, because the US numbers include NYC. If you were to exclude the NYC numbers from the nationwide numbers, NYC would look even better than "US excluding NYC".

So why did NYC see vastly more improvement?

A bunch of police officers did not go into the school after him, and stopped parents from going in. So good guys with guns did not stop that until, from what I understand, an off duty Border Patrol officer went in and killed the murderer, getting shot in the process. So a good guy with a gun DID end it after other marginally not good guys with guns (and body armor and rifles) held the parents back.

Large numbers like Stalin and Hitler? Or like Lanza, Ramos, Holmes, and Cruz?



They are almost certainly not Republicans because there are so few remaining in the city to pick from.

The fact that gun crime is high in Chicago in part because of guns from elsewhere, is exactly why additional gun control laws aren't likely to work, unless you have a way of confiscating the 400 million that are out there, which isn't even worth discussing. Those guns are out there, and they aren't going away, and they are the reason why additional gun control isn't the silver bullet that the left says it is.

We need more than gun control. Way more.

He's saying most mass shooters had no mental issues, not sure about that.

How many had two loving, dedicated parents who spent quality time with them? Same question of people who murder others in garden variety gun crime...

Culture is a big contributor.

Covid-related isolation will make it all worse, and that will be manifesting itself for another 20 years. Super.

Compstat
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Right no one is saying you should be confiscating all the guns out there. But there is a gun highway coming from other States like Indiana and Mississippi that lead directly to Chicago. Stop that and you take away much of the guns that are used in crimes in Chicago.
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Copied this list from a friend. Personally I have no idea the list of school shootings is this long since the late 90s. Yes I looked up some of them to make sure not fabricated. Only mass shootings made the news. Majority were personally targeted. The facts and statistics really not important here. I do agree guns don’t kill people, people kill people. I also support the 2nd amendment if interpreted correctly. I do have problem with the gun laws not being uniformed across the country. Many argues about California yet most guns are purchased out of state. Similar to us M#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&#^&s buying fireworks in New Hampshire. My point is that us responsible gun owners have no issues waiting a few days for background check. While this is not going to end gun violence but it may reduce the guns on the streets and some potential tragedies.

Thurston High School.
Columbine High School.
Heritage High School.
Deming Middle School.
Fort Gibson Middle School.
Buell Elementary School.
Lake Worth Middle School.
University of Arkansas.
Junipero Serra High School.
Santana High School.
Bishop Neumann High School.
Pacific Lutheran University.
Granite Hills High School.
Lew Wallace High School.
Martin Luther King, Jr. High School.
Appalachian School of Law.
Washington High School.
Conception Abbey.
Benjamin Tasker Middle School.
University of Arizona.
Lincoln High School.
John McDonogh High School.
Red Lion Area Junior High School.
Case Western Reserve University.
Rocori High School.
Ballou High School.
Randallstown High School.
Bowen High School.
Red Lake Senior High School.
Harlan Community Academy High School.
Campbell County High School.
Milwee Middle School.
Roseburg High School.
Pine Middle School.
Essex Elementary School.
Duquesne University.
Platte Canyon High School.
Weston High School.
West Nickel Mines School.
Joplin Memorial Middle School.
Henry Foss High School.
Compton Centennial High School.
Virginia Tech.
Success Tech Academy.
Miami Carol City Senior High School.
Hamilton High School.
Louisiana Technical College.
Mitchell High School.
E.O. Green Junior High School.
Northern Illinois University.
Lakota Middle School.
Knoxville Central High School.
Willoughby South High School.
Henry Ford High School.
University of Central Arkansas.
Dillard High School.
Dunbar High School.
Hampton University.
Harvard College.
Larose-Cut Off Middle School.
International Studies Academy.
Skyline College.
Discovery Middle School.
University of Alabama.
DeKalb School.
Deer Creek Middle School.
Ohio State University.
Mumford High School.
University of Texas.
Kelly Elementary School.
Marinette High School.
Aurora Central High School.
Millard South High School.
Martinsville West Middle School.
Worthing High School.
Millard South High School.
Highlands Intermediate School.
Cape Fear High School.
Chardon High School.
Episcopal School of Jacksonville.
Oikos University.
Hamilton High School.
Perry Hall School.
Normal Community High School.
University of South Alabama.
Banner Academy South.
University of Southern California.
Sandy Hook Elementary School.
Apostolic Revival Center Christian School.
Taft Union High School.
Osborn High School.
Stevens Institute of Business and Arts.
Hazard Community and Technical College.
Chicago State University.
Lone Star College-North.
Cesar Chavez High School.
Price Middle School.
University of Central Florida.
New River Community College.
Grambling State University.
Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Ossie Ware Mitchell Middle School.
Ronald E. McNair Discovery Academy.
North Panola High School.
Carver High School.
Agape Christian Academy.
Sparks Middle School.
North Carolina A&T State University.
Stephenson High School.
Brashear High School.
West Orange High School.
Arapahoe High School.
Edison High School.
Liberty Technology Magnet High School.
Hillhouse High School.
Berrendo Middle School.
Purdue University.
South Carolina State University.
Los Angeles Valley College.
Charles F. Brush High School.
University of Southern California.
Georgia Regents University.
Academy of Knowledge Preschool.
Benjamin Banneker High School.
D. H. Conley High School.
East English Village Preparatory Academy.
Paine College.
Georgia Gwinnett College.
John F. Kennedy High School.
Seattle Pacific University.
Reynolds High School.
Indiana State University.
Albemarle High School.
Fern Creek Traditional High School.
Langston Hughes High School.
Marysville Pilchuck High School.
Florida State University.
Miami Carol City High School.
Rogers State University.
Rosemary Anderson High School.
Wisconsin Lutheran High School.
Frederick High School.
Tenaya Middle School.
Bethune-Cookman University.
Pershing Elementary School.
Wayne Community College.
J.B. Martin Middle School.
Southwestern Classical Academy.
Savannah State University.
Harrisburg High School.
Umpqua Community College.
Northern Arizona University.
Texas Southern University.
Tennessee State University.
Winston-Salem State University.
Mojave High School.
Lawrence Central High School.
Franklin High School.
Muskegon Heights High School.
Independence High School.
Madison High School.
Antigo High School.
University of California-Los Angeles.
Jeremiah Burke High School.
Alpine High School.
Townville Elementary School.
Vigor High School.
Linden McKinley STEM Academy.
June Jordan High School for Equity.
Union Middle School.
Mueller Park Junior High School.
West Liberty-Salem High School.
University of Washington.
King City High School.
North Park Elementary School.
North Lake College.
Freeman High School.
Mattoon High School.
Rancho Tehama Elementary School.
Aztec High School.
Wake Forest University.
Italy High School.
NET Charter High School.
Marshall County High School.
Sal Castro Middle School.
Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School
Great Mills High School
Central Michigan University
Huffman High School
Frederick Douglass High School
Forest High School
Highland High School
Dixon High School
Santa Fe High School
Noblesville West Middle School
University of North Carolina Charlotte
STEM School Highlands Ranch
Edgewood High School
Palm Beach Central High School
Providence Career & Technical Academy
Fairley High School (school bus)
Canyon Springs High School
Dennis Intermediate School
Florida International University
Central Elementary School
Cascade Middle School
Davidson High School
Prairie View A & M University
Altascocita High School
Central Academy of Excellence
Cleveland High School
Robert E. Lee High School
Cheyenne South High School
Grambling State University
Blountsville Elementary School
Holmes County, Mississippi (school bus)
Prescott High School
College of the Mainland
Wynbrooke Elementary School
UNC Charlotte
Riverview Florida (school bus)
Second Chance High School
Carman-Ainsworth High School
Williwaw Elementary School
Monroe Clark Middle School
Central Catholic High School
Jeanette High School
Eastern Hills High School
DeAnza High School
Ridgway High School
Reginald F. Lewis High School
Saugus High School
Pleasantville High School
Waukesha South High School
Oshkosh High School
Catholic Academy of New Haven
Bellaire High School
North Crowley High School
McAuliffe Elementary School
South Oak Cliff High School
Texas A&M University-Commerce
Sonora High School
Western Illinois University
Oxford High School
Robb Elementary School

Still waiting for a response here Bob.


Indianna & Mississippi require dealers adhere to Federal to do a background check before firearms purchases. They do not have the best state laws.

I am a bit of a 1A and 2A absolutest but I am amenable for certain background checks, waiting periods, and some training requirements for certain things. But I am not compromising when the other side won't. I will not bend the knee.

Is the husband who had a heart attack and died shortly after visiting the memorial to his wife who was a teacher and was killed considered a victim also?
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heartbreaking.
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Well we MUST be able to come up with something better than what we are "living" with... And beyond time to take the Republican/Democrat out of the discussion. Mass has the strictest I think I read. It is a starting point. Waiting periods at a minimum. Licensing. Meet face to face with somebody, not a Zoom. Background check with cross references to mental health records/prescriptions?

BUT we need to spend some money on the mental health system. NOW! I know of a 14 or 15 year old girl who sits on a cot, in a hospital corridor, for four weeks now, because there are no beds to deal with her depression! That just isn't acceptable. While we obligingly send $Billions to Ukraine (and rightfully so) should there not be an investment made in mental health and our own veterans while the money is flowing????

after all the school shootings, how and why was there an unlocked door?

i taught at a school in a fairly poor town. Yet every single outside door had censors on them, if any of them
was ever unlocked, an alarm
immediately went off in the office, telling them which door was unlocked

Many parts of this issue are almost impossible to deal with - almost half a billion guns are out there already, evil is out there, and serious mental illness is out there. These are very difficult things to address.

Locking a door is not hard.

And the police appear to have a TON of explaining to do.

What a complete institutional/functional breakdown.
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Paul you said, correctly, that strict gun laws in chicago don’t do anything, because there’s a sea of guns out there.

Every city is exactly like chicago in that regard. we’re all surrounded by guns, and we can’t do anything about it.

You’re saying, stop the gun highway and you’ve solved the problem? if you built a wall around chicago today, you’re saying that would solve gun crime there? there aren’t millions of guns in chicago already?

If there weren’t any guns currently out there, gun control laws could
make a huge difference. But there are, so they won’t.

I’m not saying we don’t change gun laws where it makes sense, but we need to recognize that does absolutely nothing to address the 400 million guns that are currently out there, and whose hands they are in.

The way to make real widespread change, is to change culture and hearts. That’s extremely difficult, and we’re moving in the exact opposite direction. I don’t like saying it, but i am convinced it’s true, one party is completely invested in moving our culture in the exact wrong direction.

We’re a huge, free country that’s up to our eyeballs in guns. The more we move away from old fashioned values, the more of these there will be.

These things don’t happen with this frequency, in the 1950s, but guns were still common. I’d like to have a national discussion about why the culture then, was so much less prone to this violence.

Family, connecting with others in a real way, faith, empathy, humanity. Understanding that not every human impulse is something to celebrate.

Paul, we don’t like each other much. But you could have 10 machine guns in your home, and i know my kids wouldn’t be in any danger around you. I know it.

it’s not just the guns. it’s not just assault rifles. This kid walked into a school unchallenged,,and was allowed to do whatever he wanted for an hour. he could have pulled this off with a cub scout knife.

Guns are part of the problem, no question. But if we could get more of us to see others the way you see them ( as human beings), that would
also be a huge help.

and it looks like we’ve done nothing to make schools
much safer since Columbine. I don’t know why or how that could be

I’m seeing reports that he shot his gun randomly for ten minutes outside the school, before he entered. How could an external door be unlocked during ten minutes of shooting just outside?


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Disturbing the new timeline, WTF is wrong with the police who thought holding parents back was the priority.

Yes. This is going to be worse than Parkland in regards to the ineptitude of the police and maybe the FBI.

The police in Uvalde were armed far higher than the police at Parkland, many with body armor and rifles. They may have gotten some kids out, including their own, while the gunman was in the building - waiting for confirmation on that.

The FIB reportedly had a tip that this kid said he was going to shoot up a school.

The school may have had a lock system, but it was not in play.

Mass shootings are so common that mayors now have a checklist for when one happens


I think the public honestly doesn't see Gun Law as the Cure for the Gun violence epidemic in America ..But they want more of an effort to stop it. But they see One Party! and if we're being honest ONE party who is willing to do Nothing :faga: and just make excuses

the Party of No has a track record of :faga:

they do it with Climate change (its cyclictic not a real issue )

they do it with green energy ( it will never replace oil no suggested it will in the near term)

they did it with Covid (it's just the flu)

they did it Masks (Its my freedom)


But this same party has no issues changing voting laws based on a Lie week after the election!

And banning abortion or requiring a waiting period for Them All for their small % primary voters ?


Many Americans not just liberals are tired of the the rights willingness to do Nothing. to solve the problem..

So some interesting stats on the Gun culture in the US

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-t...d-involvement/

have you ever once said a democrat idea was wrong or a republican idea had any merit? ever?

democrats run the federal
government . what have they done last two years to stop these things? please specify.

democrats run chicago, which has strict anti gun laws? how is that working out?

you are not persuadable by results. ideology is all that matters.

if it’s not a mental health issue, why didn’t these things happen in the 1950s with this frequency? we’re guns invented in the 1990s?

almost everything you say is destroyed by historical facts.

all those crazy things you say the gop stands for, yet people are leaving blue states for red ones, and the gop is poised to do great in november. why is that?

this week, senate republicans proposed a school safety bill. senate democrats killed it. so stop saying the gop does nothing. you’re lying.

the 2 sides have different ideas, and neither side is willing to compromise, and you are a perfect example of that ideology-driven stupidity.
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how can there be a school that doesn’t have a kick system for christ’s sake?

i saw a report that an offf duty cop was getting a haircut. his wife and daughter were in the school. the wife texted him. he grabbed a shotgun from the barbers office ( it’s TX after all), went to the school, got his daughter out, got a bunch of other kids out, and apparently helped coordinate with CBP as they were entering.

i also hears a mom broke past police and got into the school somehow, and got her two kids out. the wall street journal reported that.

it’s hard to process it all. also hearing that some cops who appeared to be standing there doing nothing had actually been shot already. Lots more to learn.

Lock the god damn doors.
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More than 100 TV ads from Republican candidates and conservative-aligned groups showed guns or used guns as a talking point this year,

Pull your head from the Sand

the GOP unwillingness to try to prevent these Crimes is the actual issue ..

And chicago has a Gang and Gun Issue .. but get back to me when there intent is shooting and killing children Wholesale ..

How And Why Chicago Violence Became Conservatives' Favorite Talking Point

and clearly yours

For a certain segment of conservative politicians and pundits—far from all, to be sure—pointing out what is often referred to as “black-on-black crime” in Chicago has become the preferred shorthand for castigating ineffectual liberalism, reinforcing racial wedges and feigning a concern for crime victims—even when their voting records paint a different picture of their priorities.


https://chicagoist.com/2016/08/29/ho...nce_became.php

if the democrats want to solve this and have the right ideas, why haven’t biden and the democrats in congress passed those solutions? Who’s stopping them? They run the show. Do you not get that?
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chicago style violence claims way more lives than these mass shootings. John had the numbers

Your side ignores that, because it’s not a politically winning issue for them.

I’m not distorting anything. your side is. they spend all their energy on mass shootings because they think it helps them win elections.

They never talk about the much larger scale problem, because it makes their side look incompetent. Which, unfortunately for you, they are.

CT has had pure un checked
liberalism for decades. Sandy Hook happened here. Was that somehow the fault of republicans, who control nothing here in CT?

again, i’m reacting to actual results. You’re only reacting to what helps your ideology. Even now.
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Too much emotion on both sides and not wading through the thread, so this is likely one and done... This one hits close to the bone with a 3rd and 6th grader. Plus I am staying out of here in protest of ScottW fishing the keys for a month straight....

If I were the Dem in the senate, I would put up a clean bill with some of the topics presented here (background, waiting, etc). Get everyone on the record on each of these issues rather than a more convoluted bill trying to do everything.

I would recommend a book called 'Gunfight' by Ryan Busse. Interesting perspective (former gun company executive) on the cultural change in the last decade or so, particularly on the marketing of body armor/tactical gear/AR-type weapons etc. to couch commandos.. He has a Ted talk out there as well.

We have trained every school shooter for years in what the schools do to stop them.
Usually lockdown drills are 4x a year, so an 18 year old boy has been trained 48x
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i don’t think it can be denied that the look of the ar-15 fuels
the fantasies of a small number of very, very sick folks. that has to be part of this. but if we ban them going forward, given how many are out there, does it do anything? or do we confiscate the ones that are out there?

we had a nationwide assault weapons ban. they let it lapse, because it didn’t do anything. but that was before the rise of these couch commando mass killings, maybe it would have more of an impact now, on those?
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Mayors have a checklist (Incident Response Plan) for a bunch of different things, well usually the EMA Director does or the PD Chief / FD Chief depending on purview. That have it for weather, shootings, IT issues, contageous outbreaks (pre-COIVD), and 99 other topics.


I have seen some bad things, but as usual, first and second reports often wrong. Let's see what shakes out.

I recommend people consider that if anything has proven true over the past 10-15 years is that government is increasingly failing in protecting people, both parties, from security to Baby Formula, to your rights. The trend of our country and the world in general has become more turbulent, dangerous, and divided. There has been ZERO evidence to indicate this trend is going to reverse. The Games Have Yet To Begin.

So with all of the great jobs done by all the "experts", seems kinda foolish to turn all of your security over to them.