No ticas in my closet, but I guess there is a little china in everything we own in some way or another :(

Yup, labor is cheap in CHina. Once they get their act together it will be cheap somewhere else. It is a pretty simple math equation to perform. Take a spinning reel that is more labor intensive to assemble than it is to make the parts, take one very well-paid US worker versus the on-going rate of a CHinese factory worker. One of our US workers will pay for an entire assembly line. Factor in the fact that Penn was losing more than $3million per year at our Spinning Reel Factory, and we were faced with three decisions:
1. Stop selling spinning reels altogether. Save a $3mil lost, stop selling all spinning reek products, while foreign competition continues to pump reel after reel into the market.

2. Make Reels in the US and lose $3mil/yr or double or triple the price of our reels Not an option. We would be better off with the first option.

or...

3. Close US Factory, save $3mil/year, help find employment and do the right thing for displaced employees, and import spinning reels that are made to Penn specifications so Penn can make money and keep employing the three hundred other US workers at Penn. Someone inside our group said this best, It is not how many people we are losing, but how many we can save.

What is you decision if faced with these three options??? Sold our soul to the devil? I think not. Walk a mile before casting the first accussation. No one likes what is going on, but at the end of the day, a company has to be profitable and viable if it is to survive.

How about an incentive for moving offshore courtesy of our good goverment and their abiliity to tax. Here is an interesting little tax we all pay, the Federal Excise tax levied on all fishing related products. In its simplest form, this is a 10% tax paid on all fishing products. It is calculated upon the first price paid for an item when it is sold in the US. So when Penn sells an item made in the US, we are already at an extreme disadvantage to our foreign compeition. What they will do is sell the product into the US at a lower value, possibly their cost, to a separate holding company, who then "sells" the product back to their US counterpart company. OK, so it costs them $1 to sell an item, and they pay a 10cent tax on this. They can then markup the item to distributors and dealers at a disadvantage to Penn because we must pay the 10% on the first price sold (often to distributors). So lets say instead of the $1 our competition is selling their product at, we are at $8. Our tax is 80cents compared to their 10cents. This is a very elementary version of what takes place, but I am sure anyone can get an idea how we are already behind the proverbial 8-ball with foreign competition.

Penn is trying to keep jobs in the US, and will do so to the best of our abilities, but the tackle industry is the laggard in the great outsourcing project that is China. Take a look at just about any textile, clock, toaster, microwave, etc. Manufacturing is becoming more and more impossible in the US, and we are managaging to maintain a lion share of our reels as still being built in the US.

Brent Kane

...don't forget this is an innovation-driven product category... (= R&D, and *cough* user input) :spin:

...and it's also marketing-driven... ya think Shimano spends more on marketing dollars (including retail dealer incentives) than Penn does? :usd:

Where is the market for reels going? :lurk:

BK - I don't think there are many that hate Penn or at least won't warm back up to Penn if the company gets its sheet together. I think Penn can win a lot of them back but it will take a combination of savy and dependable product, a true and noticeable commitment from Penn to the customer base (maybe this is the start? Hope so but not holding my breath) and MADE in USA product.
For years, that Made in USA was the make or break for a lot of people to chose from your product over the Shimanos and Daiwas of the world. Buying Made in the USA when the product sucks The product of recent years has not been of sufficient design and quality to stand above the better imported reels. Right now, especially with the condition of the Penn product in the state that it is in, there is little incentive to buy a Penn over another reel. Forget about Saltigas and Stellas, why buy a Slammer over a Stradic? If you are one of those that believe it is a toss up in quality on the reel, many might buy the Penn because it is made here instead of by the People's Liberation Army.

As for the graphite - I checked a couple out but nothing gave me the warm and fuzzies that I had to go and trade one of my Stradics in for one. As for the size reel I fish? 220yds of 12 # test ( BTW - your website is screwed up on the line sizes) is not going to do it for me. A Slammer 560 has borderline capacity for where I feel I need to be for surf fishing. I typically run about 170-180 yards of braid on one of my conventionals, 300 braid/mono on my 975. This is for what I consider average surf fishing for stripers. That graphite 5500g for "Trophy" fish ain't big enough for the trophys I chase. Hate to see what someone chasing bigger fish from shore would need. A 7500 or 8500 is too unwieldy for plugging although it has sufficient capacity. But then there is the bail thing...

Right now, I don't think Penn has enough of the right stuff to get me purchase their product. I've owned a few Penns, I am (was) one of your customers. Time is going to tell if I decide to purchase a Penn reel again. It won't happen if it is more of the same. If the company is truly turning the corner maybe I will. I won't buy one if it is made in China - that much I can say. Philosophical problem. I try not to buy from there when I truly have a choice. I will consider Taiwan. Putting my money where my mouth is...

I truly would like to see that with a US made product. As for Penn belieiving in dealers that believe in Penn. Mike was one of your biggest supporters. He runs a first class shop. I don't entirely recall what some of the Mickey Mouse rules were for being a Gold Dealer but but there is soome Mickey Mouse - something like you need to carry X type of other reels from Penn, whether it is your market or not, or you need to carry a crappy reel as well or both, I don't remember correctly and I went looking for the thread but could not find it. Mike is the kind of shop you WANT to be a Gold Dealer. Knowlegeable, helpful, stands behind the product.

BTW - we DO appreciate your sitting in on this thread and discussing this with us. This is a very good start. So while it may appear that you are getting hammered, OK - you are a little bit - it is not personal, but a very rare time that Penn is taking upon itself or maybe just you, to connect with their buyers.... It is very appreciated. where it leads as well as other changes Penn makes down the road will mean a lot for people moving back to the Penn name....

Hey Eben - do you still have that picture of the PennStaal from SOL? I think BK needs some inspiration :hihi:

If it is cheaper to make the spinners in China, why isn't cheaper to make the conventionals there?Maybe they're not losing money for you, but it's only a matter of time before some bean counter uses the migrated China spinner model across the board.
Then, who is gonna be buying these reels?
I don't blame you - everyone's doing it, but it's a recipe for disaster IMO.
If you design a better product, with outstanding service, and parts - you should be able to make a go of it here.I own a lot of Penns, and some of them are older than me - you can still get parts for them.
But then, I like Snap-on tools.
.
Advertising catches people's attention.


Reputations are much harder to come by, but infinately more valuable

bk iam not trying to p you off.mikecc is a great dealer i bought a reel from him a month ago i wanted better drag washers put in not only did he have the washers in stock but he put them in free of charge while i wated.i owen 6 penn reels.i wish penn made a 660 slammer they need to up grade the 704 .when i used to read MADE IN USA on the penn box it made me proud.snake slinger

These discussions are GREAT! It is nice to know that Penn is listening lets hope the folks on the board can help change things.

BK thanks for listening and adding your input!

Not Eben's Penn Stall, but BM's Von Penn..... :devil2:

I was thinking the same thing , Lurch. It took more than a little guts to offer an e-mail address to the potential avalanche of angry mail BK could face every morning. Just let me say this: I own at least a dozen Penn reels all but one work well. The one that doesn't has a graphite rotor that keeps breaking and won't be fixed yet again. It was replaced with a 460. The non-Penn reels that I own number about 4. None of them still work, and never will again because of parts availability. Let's just say that they were tuition in the School of Hard Knocks. I'll stick with Penn. Thanks BK for showing up.

The first step that penn should have asked well before it got to 3 mil or even 1 Mil is why are we loosing money. Product support?? If Penn had addressed the issues long ago this would not be an issue.
If Penn is serious about this they should fix the problems.

The main people who supported penn were verterans. Now if they do not have a choice of US made spinners they may as well choose the best feel and fit. If Penn can step up than fine if not only time will tell.

I hope Penn regains a lot of ground.

I also hope that penn listens to this message . There is a lot of knowledge on this board . Reels that we have been asking for years. Most of us feel that nobody has listened. You are a step in the right direction.

You don't want to get me going on the short comings of some of new products and gold lable program.I do like the swimsuites tho :hee:

As far as line every one and their brother has new line . The reason Pure fishing aquiring Stren and the big 3 Wholesalers cant sell pure fishing products.
The biggest profit market is line so why not lets make it someone has to fill the gap.

I think if you check I am not your run of the mill tackle dealer. I know the products better than most reps that are supose to show it.
This area is where most companys fail on their products we do not want yes men we want some one who knows the product. I will say on one of the worst snow storms in years Penn reps were at the NET show. Most reps never showed.

If you want to talk call me at the shop on wednesday I'm sure we can have a constructive talk 508-291-0820

Penn has to come up with something big to bring it back from where it is now, dontcha think? :gf:

Oh well, at least I picked up a minty-fresh 706 and a few Slammers. :hee:

So does this mean the Z series is going by the wayside.Do I have to pick up a few more an some of the parts that go with time.Is it finally the end of the 706z areal thats been my staple in the surf for many yrs?

What are the most important segments to address?

1) Freshwater bass guys?

2) NE saltwater surf fishermen?

3) Boat fishermen?

Who thinks #2 is the least important here volume-wise? Are we the pimple on the arse of an Elephant? :ss:

At a svelt 250+ lbs. I prefer to think of myself as a Boil.


But you are right, on that list freshwater Bass guys top the list of importance in the eyes of the manufacturers, and we, sadly, are #3

I'm sure Penn has some marketing research data on this. I wonder if BK would like to share it w/ us.

We are probably number 7 as you can likely scare up a couple more market segments. However, we ARE the segment where Penn cut its teeth and we ARE the segment that launched saltwater fishing's popularity as our forefathers were the ones of Saltwater Sportsman and the tourneys and the make of Penn in a way...

I think we are becoming increasingly irrelevant as a viable segment.

Anyone who wants to sell to us will be a specialty niche manufacturer or a smaller product line in a company with a large fishing portfolio.

Anyhoo, w/r/t to Penn ... I'll say again.

Production cost: Work in process?
Positioning: In the middle between value and high-end (excl. Int'l line)
Innovation: :sleeps:
Marketing : What marketing?

:eyes:

I think it's good that Penn has a new marketing guy that shows some interest in what the customer thinks, but it's going to take a lot more than that to turn the Penn ship around. Knowledgeable fishermen have been complaining about the same problems for years . . . and a lot of it was very fixable stuff. Unfortunately, Penn did nothing to address the problems and comes off as a company too stupid to get out of its own way. I've been surprised they've retained as much loyalty as they have - that's a real tribute to the patriotic sensibilities of fishermen.

I swore the 5500SS was the last Penn reel I'd ever buy, what a piece of junk! I ended up buying a 560 Slammer and I've been mostly satisfied with it - not a perfect reel, but I think it's a pretty good value compared to other reels in the same price range. Without the Slammer series Penn's surfcasting presence would be limited to greenie parts on E-Bay by now. I hope Penn can turn it around, and I think a lot of other fisherman feel the same way. But if they don't, there won't be many Penn loyalists left to attend the funeral.

BK??
 

Penn is not going to be made in USA anymore.... so... therfore, the girls in the ads have to take off the flag bikini's :kewl:

John... FWW---> both correct, we are probably a low priority as a group, but like John said, how did they get to where they got... bring back the US made coffee grinders, but update them... and for a low priority segment, we sure do get worked up over high end stuff, liike the VS, and Saltiga offerings, so target us something mid range-high range, with the aforementioned specs.

:kewl: You're doing a good thing stepping up, we're a pretty tough crowd :vamp:

But if you guys could follow through or even proto some of Mike p's suggestions as well as the others on the board that'd be excellent. I mean FFS you're PENN! EVERYONE has seen, touched, used a squidder, everyone has owned a 704/706 at one point, they're the workhorses('course we tweak 'em) but they're the workhorse. You have an audience, bounce ideas man! Best of luck... oh yeah I like my 7500's just fine :D ffs you got guys who designed bridges in school, Im quite sure you can get one of those cad monkeys to design an effective sealed drag...

He sold me one last summer. My wife chose a Stradic 8000. When both reels are side by side, there's no way you're ever gonna convince me the Slammer is a better reel than the Stradic. Bearing in mind that I'm a Penn loyalist, or used to be. If you're seriously comparing them to the Stella or Saltiga, your credibility just went the way of the Titanic :rolleyes:

Also, for a roller bearing anti-reverse, there's just enought back-slap there to be an annoyance. Same with the SSgs I've picked up and turned.

I propose that Penn change its name.

Instead of Penn, it really oughta be Chen.

:bl2: :think:

Hey Ben, add an "i" into that and it becomes french for "dog"! :D

ooohhh I feel a Chinese joke coming on, but since Alberto is lurking I'll behave. :angel:

Yeh Ben, you just can't offend the Chinese, eh?

Sigh.

Whither Penn?

Could it use a management enema of some kind?

Or maybe an R&D emetic, it seems the company keeps resorting to putting its finger down its proverbial throat to regurgitate the same old thing...

What is the end game for this company?

Do I smell an exit strategy for this tired old brand?

Think Shimano, Daiwa, or W.C. Bradley would step up to the plate to gobble it up while there is still some franchise value?

Is resistance to consolidation truly futile? Will Penn be assimilated into the hive?

Will Wee Wee ever shut up?

Inquiring minds wanna know.

:angel:

I'm still looking for the pictures of that real cool tricked out and drilled 706 a guy posted on SOL a couple years ago. Anyone have those pics??

http://www.stripersonline.com/cgi-bi.../1/35820.html?

Slip - that one is close but I htought there was another one just as detailed....

ain't sol .. but...
 

http://surftalk.njtackle.com/showthread.php?t=263

scroll thru the thread... starts out about cooler racks, but morphs into a Van Penn Thread

That one is schweet too...

That is the type of stuff I want to get into doing eventually. Making good reels better with a few upgrades. Paul

I have a couple ideas too :hee: hehehehe.... But I have no talent :crying:

God willing if I get my home shop set up by the end of the year we will talk. Could start on the space in a few month's if it is financially feasible. Going to be looking for lots of ideas. Paul