Perhaps a scientific paper will stop the bickering...

the following is a synopsis of the research they did, and the full paper can be found at this website: http://www.mass.gov/dfwele/dmf/publi...tal2003add.pdf

might I add that Gary Nelson rocks my socks off -- he's a nifty guy

Striped Bass Diet and Bioenergetics

Food Habits of Striped Bass (Morone saxatilis) in Coastal Waters of Massachusetts. Nelson, G.A., B.C. Chase and J. Stockwell. Journal of Northwest Atlantic Fisheries Science, Vol 32, 2003.

For the past 17 years, our biologists have studied striped bass growth of striped bass caught along Massachusetts and have noted an apparent decline in average weight at age. Like wise, striper fishermen have repeatedly reported the appearance of 'thin' fish in their catches in recent years. As a result, the Sport Fish Program conducted a study during 1997-2000 to address the issues of forage needs of the recovered striped bass population and the potential impacts of striped bass consumption on economically-important prey species. This MarineFisheries research project was designed to provide diet information of striped bass and to build a computer-based bioenergetic model that allows us to estimate consumption rates of striped bass for any particular food item, such as river herring, menhaden, and even the commercially- important lobster. We collected diet information from over 3,000 striped bass collected from the North Shore, Cape Cod Bay, and Nantucket Sound regions of Massachusetts
Striped Bass gut contents displaying different sizes of prey

We found that, in general, striped bass consumed mostly fish (menhaden, herring, silversides, and sand lance) and invertebrates (crabs, sand shrimp, and sea fleas); however, the amounts eaten varied depending on the month of summer, fish length, and where the striped bass were captured. Large bass (>24 inches) generally ate more invertebrates (mainly lobsters and crabs) than small bass (<24 inches), but small bass ate more fish (mainly menhaden during August-September) than large bass. Striped bass captured from rocky shorelines or offshore waters generally ate more invertebrates than bass captured from estuaries or harbors.

We also found that the striped bass ate different sizes of prey. Fish prey ranged in size from 0.9" to 19" total length, and crab prey ranged in size from 0.1" to 4" carapace width. Individuals of menhaden and sand lance were generally <5" and the three dominant crabs (rock, green, and lady crabs) were generally <3" . American lobsters eaten by striped bass were <2" carapace length.

Using the bioenergetic model, we estimated that an "average" striped bass of six years (27 inches in length) must eat about 16 pounds of prey to gain 1 pound in weight during June-September in Massachusetts waters. Most energy contributing to the growth of this age class comes from different fish prey during June-July, but mainly from menhaden during August-September. These results confirmed the importance of fishes like menhaden to the survival and health of the striped bass population.

The next phase of the project will be to estimate the consumptive impact of striped bass on their prey. This task will require us to estimate the numbers of striped bass residing in Massachusetts waters and is expected to be completed by summer of 2002.

." Large bass (>24 inches) generally ate more invertebrates (mainly lobsters and crabs) than small bass (<24 inches), but small bass ate more fish (mainly menhaden during August-September) than large bass. Striped bass captured from rocky shorelines or offshore waters generally ate more invertebrates than bass captured from estuaries or harbors."

I love it when I am right :hihi: :hihi:

I've always thought a slot limit was the best approach. Allow fish for the table , allow some trophys but protect the breaders.

I also think we need a coast wise limit , whatever it is. In Maryland , they take about 9 million pounds of tiny fish. In numbers of individual fish , it makes the RI and MA alotment miniscule.

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I love it when I am right :hihi: :hihi:[/QUOTE]

your right, but so am I. the bass are lacking all that protein that they used to get pre and post spawn. How many baseball bat shaped bass have you caught this year? i have caught a few and i always think that they were put on the atkins diet over the winter. You may be right that they eat lobsters when they are up here, but what about when they are down there???

pogies matter.

I caught a fatboy full of Tatoug not long ago. :hihi:

The problem is that people are taking fish home to show off and not eat or sell.

As someone pointed out (eben I think) the 28in fish is enough for a meal or two and is safer (from a toxin level). I perfer to keep a small fish once in awhile for a meal or two. I do not take fish to stock freezer.

I hope the length limits do not drop. I do not know enough to decide whether they should go up.

I do like the idea of a small (28-36") and a large (over 44") so that you can have table fare and still keep a trophy if you are lucky enough.

But the bait fish demise makes the most logical sense to me. If there is not enough bait to supply the predators, there are no predators. and the predators that are left are smaller, undersized, and not as healthy.

-IWK

I'm prbabaly not adding any value to this thread, but,,,arent there tons of juvenille blues (snappers I called them as a kid) for the bass to feed on? Wouldnt they be an available source of forage for big bass?

Jimmy:
I think they bite the bass when the bass bite them and then you have a lousy bite or no bite or.....never mind. :buds:

I think this is a multi-faceted problem.
1. Male bass comprise 50% of the population of fish under somewhere in the low 30s. There are very few large male bass. A 50/50 ratio of males to females is not neccesary for good reproductive success. This is the rationale behind a 20 to 26 inch slot limit.
2. The pressure on the Striped Bass fishery is historically very high at this time. They are relatively easy to catch, you dont need a boat or a lot of special equipment. (Don't tell my wife that I said that) Fish still die from catch and release and there are estimates that will scare you on percentages.
3. Shoreline developement and the resultant pollution has increased tremendously over the past 30 years. Thsi includes stormwater discharges into nearshore areas. When I was a kid it was not a requirement in Suburbia that you fertilize your lawn and make sure that it is a bluegrass monoculture. Now it is not unusual for people to have service contracts for fertilization, etc. This makes a percentage of the estuarial areas unsuitable for use as a nursery by any fish, bait or game.
4. We have become too effecient at finding schools of baitfish and being able to collect them.
I am sure there are other factors involved. I think a Maine style slot limit is the way to go.

Absolutely pogies matter.Its the #1 forage when there down in the Chesapeake.

I shoulda stated that in my 1st post.

I stand by my original statement that the pogie is the stripers #1 source of food.

This from a study done in Virginia by the National Coalition for Marine Conservation around the same time period as the Mass Gov. study.

"Why striped bass are starving"

1.Up to 90% of striped bass on the East Coast spawn in Chesapeake Bay.

2.The diet of large striped bass is 70-80% menhaden.Most of this consumption is of juveniles.

3.The Chesapeake produces nearly half of each new generation of menhaden.

4.70% of Atlantic menhaden are caught in Chesapeake Bay and adjacent waters.

5.The population of juvenile menhaden (age 0-1) is in decline reaching an historic low in 2001.

Conclusion:The resurgent population of rockfish is not finding enough to eat.
It could lead to a future collapse in the fishery.

ever hear of maryland crabs?? thats what they eat down there :humpty:

Pogies matter but it aint the only thing they eat, bass have survived much before us and will do so after we are gone...Pogies are important, I am not going to get into a pissing match here..Bass eat many different things and adapt well

Do you have the link to the study, basswipe? All I can find on the "www.savethefish.org" are those facts, but no mention of a study. I would be leery as to what information I believe, coming from a special interest group. Facts can always be used and omitted to support or refute a certain point. Not to say that I disagree with the fact that baitfish need some help. If you're looking for more information on striped bass or baitfish, I'd shoot for studies done by universities, and, yes, the government. Political action groups don't always provide the most accurate information, even if they ARE angler groups made up of people like us.

I don't know whether anyone up in this area knew what a pogie was before the early 70s. They just weren't around. Bass fishing in the 50s and 60s was pretty damn good despite there being no pogies up here. The irony was, as pogies began to become plentiful, the bass were going into decline.

Canalman, fact, yes Virginia they did weigh 25 ( 22 to 25 on average)pounds if you have no personal experience in the recent ( last 30 years) then you wouldn't know. No I am not a googan, googans only make statements like yours. Now that being said, the tremendous influx of baby pogies that happens to coincide with the study would only serve to show that that was what school fish are and were eating. Duh! am I the only one that remembers the giant schools of baby pogies we were infested with 3-4 years ago?MikeP.,I am sure you must remember in the sixties all the harbors of the cape had large pogies, the canal was inundated with whiting, especially in June, unfortunately we don't get those runs anymore. Every year the squid run on Billingsgate and Cape Cod bay was tremendous. ( I have seen a resurgence in Squid in Barnstable in May these last two years) Noting that in this study was started, as usual, by the feds, when the problem was already well under way. Of course they are eating lobsters and crabs, first off lobsters are everywhere in rocky terrain, hell they even inhabit channel walls in sand and mud having burrows such as line Nauset inlet and Barnstable harbor channels. But pogies are, if they are available in sizes other than peanut, thier preferred food.

Studys done on the low end of bait cycles will only show what is self evident. If there are only peanut bunker then that's all your going to find in thier stomachs. Remember these are done by grad students not someone who spends most of his life on the water. They have only the data they collect there and then and can only postulate a thoery from that. History rarely gets involved though it should. Kinda like the seal population problem we have now. They are protected but no one on the federal scientific side can say for sure 100% what the historical population was. :claps: I love it.

Amen,Amen,Amen

Flap, how many of us here even know what a whiting looks like? It's been a while. I remember jigging pogies in Wellfleet harbor in the late 60's early 70's from a canoe. Jumped out landed barefoot on the oyster shells and tooke the rest of the season to heal. If I can find it , I have a photo of rows and rows of pogeys washed up Bayside after an all-day blitz in Truro, looks like a silver highway from high water to low water marks..

back in the day the 36" fish i caught( and sold )averaged about 22-23 lbs. a fat one could go 25lbs. :humpty:

The Chesapeake crab population is down 80% this year.

i agree, bass eat what is in front of them, but I still stand by the fact that pogies are a superior food source.. Feed a bass pogies for a year, and feed another bass crabs for a year- which one would you think would weigh more, and be more healty???

thats all i got to say/ :lurk:

Eben read above!!

In the late 60s I remember drifting in Huntington Harbor over schools of bunker and spearing them with a frog gig, chunking them for blues. You could always find the schools.