ONLY THE GOVERNMENT CAN OPERATE LIKE THIS
 

Total compensation per hour for the big-three carmakers is $73.20. That’s a 52 percent differential from Toyota’s (Detroit South) $48 compensation (wages + health and retirement benefits). In fact, the oversized UAW-driven pay package for Detroit is 132 percent higher than that of the entire manufacturing sector of the U.S., which comes in at $31.59.

==============================
there's to much bait and switch going on....these days... :hs:

a law gets passed then it gets transformed again
( California gay marriage is a perfect example )

everything seems to have flip flop built right into it

all of W's work is going to be reversed by Obama
which is probably a great idea, but it's difficult to make progress
if there's no consistency in anything.

The kicker is that when all these homeless unemployed folks stop making credit card payments. Unsecured debt beyond gozillions. Won't be any bail out for that sinking ship.

Those are some scary numbers. Pretty easy to see, right there, why the big three cannot compete or even survive for that matter.

We always joked, when I was part of the group handling the GM benefits systems, that $1200 of every car sold was for benefits.

We had a significant problem in that GM had no way of tracking dependents of insuree's. You got family coverage with no copay, and continued with that benefit regardless of death, divorce, children over 18, etc.

We tried to get insuree's to register dependents during Annual Enrollment but, had little success in getting turnout to do so, we were hindered by the union in communicating to its constituents

on retooling...
 

As for bailout conditions that require any car company that gets taxpayer money demonstrate a plan for transforming every vehicle in its fleet to a hybrid-electric engine with flex-fuel capability, so its entire fleet can also run on next generation cellulosic ethanol.

There is already an auto company that does this. In addition to sedans, it offers hybrid models in even its largest SUVs. This company is also the industry’s largest investor in cellulosic ethanol production, and every model it makes is flex-fuel capable.

This company’s name? General Motors. Obviously, there’s more to profitability than being green.

Great thread and interesting reading the responses after being away for a few days.

All I have to say is buy plugs please I don't want to fillout the 47 page bailout application :hee:

Yeah it has nothing to do with the fact that the company execs make an exorbitant salary (way more than they deserve)(not to mention absolutely ridiculous bonuses) and that they expense all these lavish trips and perks and benny's for themselves........but hey......lets US ALL take a hit, bail them out, give them billions with no idea how or when we will get it back.....and then STILL watch them layoff untold numbers of people during their restructuring process! Sure....lets help them!!!:angel::huh:

Why not, we're doing it with the friggin financial organizations.
We are only givin the big 3 25 billion worth from TARP

The bailout application is only TWO i repeat TWO pages long!!!Credit card applications are longer and not for billions of dollars.

That's right I forgot the front page says "I need money" and a yes or no checkbox

The back says "billions or millions" and two check boxes.

:smash:

Check this out watch towards the end.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/us/...ut.rathole.cnn

this dude says it- like it is
 

I smell HORSE%$%$%$%$

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72cHfOKoA1c&eurl

This was supposedly done by GM and posted on Youtube. This is BS they're lumping all three automakers together and using hocus pocus numbers to try and scare people into giving them money.

It's amazing how much this rhetoric has ratcheted up in the past few weeks.

I say let em fail and let the chips fall where they may. I've seen enough of this by now.

i disagree - right off the LINE
 

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...se%$%$%$%$.jpghttp://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c6...nob1/horse.jpg

the word greatly "is" horse s h! t for one!
the fuel efficiency has been dismal for decades

quality?? i remember going to look at the engine
of a brand new ford truck several years ago and upon inspection i quickly saw some air filter thing up front and realized it was nothing more than a painted coffee can :hs: ....and one minute later -i walked away.
~
why is it that Americans are rebuilding their own cars and trucks themselves turning them into electric vehicles
at a personal cost of $8000.00 dollars if the Auto makers are investing Billions.... in what????
fancy shmancy showrooms !!! certainly not in
the heavier SUV's ....not in carbon nano tube technology which is ultimately lighter and ten times stronger than steel !!!! or electric vehicles....christ
they are not hardly even on the market yet really?

Try 15K to put a diesel in one and to then bio-fuel distill VO.

China is just drooling with anticipation. I am sure they are building warehouses right now to buy up every assembly line and robot...:hs:

This Country has sold its soul... Do all of you remember when we were told that to be a patriot you were supposed to buy american products???? Now the patriotic thing to do is stick your head in the sand so you can get %$%$%$%$ed in the ass...

http://www.reuters.com/article/polit...081118?sp=true

"We're surprised that Senate Democrats would propose a bailout that fails to require automakers to make the hard decisions needed to restructure and become viable," White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said."

GEE I'M NOT :smash:

"Executives from the three companies are expected to amplify their calls for help at congressional hearings beginning on Tuesday." :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

tough luck China
 

no bailout for the big 3 under T a r p .
~
good news for us though...auto makers in Illinois
said they'd sell two cars for the price of one
the second car costs one dollar

headline BEGGARS ON THE HILL :roflmao:

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081118/D94HIR800.html

Imminent collapse GM says now they won't last until Jan20 when Bacrook gets in.

Spare me.

I see 60 pct of on all GM models Thanksgiving sale.

Senator Chris Dodd dressin them down
 

more like reeming them a new one for their ultimate failure...

the American people expect HUGE changes in the Auto industry - not the same old same old

as much change as President elect Obama is promising in Washington.

In as much as they keep calling it a Government bailout
it's really a taxpayer or American citizen bailout in truth !

The big three are correct about one thing they have to retool. So get rid of these tools at the top already.

Buy our stuff its American made and American

I loved the Ford Chairman today. People love the F150, it only gets 15 mpg and we are working hard on improving the mileage

The only thing I have seen being done is aero, no engine stuff.

:bgi:

EVEN BETTER.

http://www.thebostonchannel.com/vide...tml?source=CNN

CHECKOUT this dood. He looks like Polly Crackers the hit man :laughs: Buy my cars or I'll whack you :wid:

Did you see this morning on the news about them all taking seperate private jets to washington, to claim they're broke and beg for money, at a cost of around $20k each.....why didn't they just car-pool down....you know rent a mini van and leave on Monday morning, take turns driving....maybe hit a Waffle House or Denny's on the way for a meal...would have saved a few bucks.

You can only fit one giant ego into a Gulfstream.

Even if one were to ride baggage? :rotf2:

So much for austerity,

Explain this one to me....this is from an article I was reading on yahoo news..

"GM this month said it lost $4.2 billion in the third quarter and almost $73 billion since the end of 2004."

They've been getting run into the ground for 4 years yet...

"The GM CEO got $14.4 million in compensation in 2007, including a salary of $1.56 million."

$13 million in Bonuses...for what???? Running the company into the Ground...i'll do that for them for 1/2 that.....Amazing

They have needs.

ok thats a wrap....move along people...


nothing to see here... it's turkey time

go make a pie ....move along now...

Automakers' pleas unanswered
 

Chances for deal called 'remote'


Note to self. Don't fly private jet to beg for money.

http://www.boston.com/business/artic...as_unanswered/

:hihi: :grins:

So they're sending the big 3 back to return again with a plan on Dec 9th on what the auto makers $$$$ will be used for.

After a week of testimony, Barney Frank doesn't even know how many$$$ they are asking for. I'd laugh, but it's too sad.

Pelosie, Reid, Frank, Schumer, and Dodd couldn't wait to get to the mike to talk about there new plan. :faga:

They don't even know how much they want, no, i just gotta laugh at our genius leaders. :hee:

Growing up in michigan i know how much the economy of the state depends on the auto industry. All of my friends fathers were shop rats. Gm stands for Generous Motors. Way to generous in my opinion. A lot of the blame can be placed on the UAW. The amount of money GM pays to retirees and on their benefits is astounding. I dont know the number of people that are suckling on the GM teet but its huge.
A major restructuring is in order as we all know. The executives are grossly overpaid in that industry like so many others. People need to be rewarded for their performance, and management is no different. Pay someone a hefty salary and if they dont perform be done with them.
I may be way off here but if we had a national healthcare system wouldnt companies be able to spend the money that goes to pay for the healthcare of their employees on something that actually shows a return. Its not a bad thing to spend money if there is a return, if you dont get anything back its a waste. I know that the corporate taxes would increase to pay for something as massive as nationalized healthcare but it wouldnt be near as much as they spend on insurance.
I really think the big 3 need to be bailed out in some way. Yes there has to be stipulations. Real change needs to be done. Nobody wants to lose their jobs, and if the employees do lose their jobs the UAW will lose their dues. The union need to be a little more realistic with their negotiations.
Michigan is already at 8.5% unemployment. And the number is steadily rising. There is a trickle down effect of plants closing and the industry slowing down. As someone else mentioned the amount of aftermarket products, parts accessories etc being produced to go along with the cars is huge.
I really hope that Gm can make it back big with their electric cars and hybrid technologies that are going to be the future of the worldwide auto industry. The quality of the vehicles is good if not great in many models. They have a bad rap for making crap because of a long list of flops produced in the 80's and 90's.
My best friend works for GM at the proving grounds, has been there for 10 years now and is doing pretty well for himself. His wife just got laid off. 3 days later they found out she was pregnant with their first. He is really worried that his layoff might come on any given Friday.
Sorry for the long winded rant but its something i feel strongly about because it really is quite close to home.

Well if they are in trouble and need bailing out, they can go to a bank like everyone else does or sell stock or whatever. The fatcats at the top just don't get it, maybe it's time they walk a mile in their employees shoes:walk::whackin:

November 26, 2008 6:00 AM

Ivan and Boris Again
We are all Russian peasants?

By Thomas Sowell

There is an old Russian fable, with different versions in other countries, about two poor peasants, Ivan and Boris. The only difference between them was that Boris had a goat and Ivan didn’t. One day, Ivan came upon a strange-looking lamp and, when he rubbed it, a genie appeared. She told him that she could grant him just one wish, but it could be anything in the world.

Ivan said, “I want Boris’s goat to die.”

Variations on this story in other countries suggest that this tells us something about human beings, not just Russians.

It may tell us something painful about many Americans today, when so many people are preoccupied with the pay of corporate CEOs. It is not that the corporate CEOs’ pay affects them so much. If every oil-company executive in America agreed to work for nothing, that would not be enough to lower the price of a gallon of gasoline by a dime. If every General Motors executive agreed to work for nothing, that would not lower the price of a Cadillac or a Chevrolet by one percent.
Too many people are like Ivan, who wanted Boris’s goat to die.

It is not even that the average corporate CEO makes as much money as any number of professional athletes and entertainers. The average pay of a CEO of a corporation big enough to be included in the Standard & Poor’s index is less than one-third of what Alex Rodriguez makes, about one-tenth of what Tiger Woods makes and less than one-thirtieth of what Oprah Winfrey makes.

But when has anyone ever accused athletes or entertainers of “greed”?

It is not the general public that singles out corporate CEOs for so much attention. Politicians and the media have focused on business leaders, and the public has been led along, like sheep.

The logic is simple: Demonize those whose place or power you plan to usurp.


We could confiscate "all" of the wealth of the top 5% who currently pay a lions share of the Federal taxes in this country and it would not run the federal government for very long....but of course a lot of people would "FEEL" better wouldn't they?
Kicking the crap out of the execs. is pointless unless you simply want to feel BIG.....the union influence is like a cancerous growth on business and government.....how can you justify paying 12,000 employees to play cards at full time pay unless you are bound and gagged by insane work rules...I hope they go bankrupt and rid themselves of these foolish contracts and work rules become competitive again by paying competitive market compensation rather than union negotiated foolishness....

have any of you looked at the Electoral map and noticed that most of the areas "in BLUE" are the areas of the country that are fiscally screwed right now and have been run by democrats legislatures and liberal ideaology for quite some time...yet they keep electing democrats in greater numbers and maybe an occasional liberal Repubican...huge populations of government dependents that can't take a crap without help from government....and they keep grabbing their ankles and asking for more......

like Rahm Emmanuel said " You never want to waste the opportunity of a good crisis to get things done that you might not otherwise be able to convince the public to accept" that's pretty close...

like this "CHANGE":
Argentina-

The Kirchner administration has been moving aggressively to counter the effects of the global crisis.
On November 20 it nationalized 26 billion dollars worth of private pension funds run by 10 banks, a move opponents believe is really aimed at preventing a loan default on Argentina's national debt of some 150 billion dollars.

Me......All the Time.....Way to much money to play a game.

And last time I looked Tiger or Gay-Rod weren't asking congress for Tax Dollars