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-   -   Trayvon (http://www.striped-bass.com/Stripertalk/showthread.php?t=76863)

spence 04-04-2012 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 931428)
Twio key words that make your point moot Spence. You said "if" and "probably".
Never said if and no it's not moot, time to think critically Jim.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Redsoxticket 04-04-2012 08:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles (Post 931182)
Then I will refer to it as the "legal system".
Give it a chance to work before assuming judge and jury responsibilities.
Zimmerman's grandfather being a retired judge and mother a court clerk may of had an effect on how this case was handled.

detbuch 04-04-2012 09:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 931425)
In RI had the same situation occurred the shooter would have probably been detained and charged with at least manslaughter. They would still be presumed innocent mind you.

-spence
Don't know about RI, but in most states criminal charges are filed by prosecutors (not police) after thorough investigation reveals enough evidence to win the case at trial. Also, in most cases, there is a short time period that a defendant can be held or released if no charge is made. So it is prudent to not arrest a person too quickly if not enough evidence has been revealed. It's better, in serious crimes, to get your ducks in a row. If you charge someone with a crime, that begins the criminal process which can include a grand jury or prelliminary hearing and that quickly leads to a trial. If you postpone the arrest and charges, you have more time to gather enough evidence to be successful at trial.

PaulS 04-05-2012 06:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 931462)
If you charge someone with a crime, that begins the criminal process which can include a grand jury or prelliminary hearing and that quickly leads to a trial. If you postpone the arrest and charges, you have more time to gather enough evidence to be successful at trial.
Agree, and that is a good enough reason to delay an arrest. However, I think the problem with the whole story is that I believe the family wasn't explained that and enough kept informed of what was going on in the investigation. I haven't seen the police come out and say those things. Thus, the family and public seem to think the investigation was screwed up. The police should have taken blood/alchohol tests of Zimmerman but didn't.

Also, it is my understanding that the way the law is written, once Zimmerman claimed self defense, the police had to prove it wasn't. The burden of proof may be different???

Jim in CT 04-05-2012 09:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931429)
The 911 phone call lasted for a substantial amount of time.. Did you listen to it? Also, I have seen the high detail video. It seems, to use one of your buddies on here favorite terms , common sense, that imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm would have caused a bit more damage. You right it is unproven but he did shoot and kill someone, who was unarmed. If Martin had busted into Zimmerman's house or gone after Zimmerman with a weapon without the provocation of chasing after him in the dark, it isn't even a story. It is the details that make it a story. I post what is reported about the night, you post a mostly irrelevant letter from a family member; irrelevant from a legal standpoint since the question isn't whether he killed him because of his race, but if he killed him because his own life was imminently threatened.
"that imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm would have caused a bit more damage"

Are you a forensic doctor now? I've seen dead bodies of dead soldiers, and the only visible wound is a tiny dot somewhere where the bullet went in. The reasonableness of imminent threat of death is not based on the intensity of visible wounds. You don't necessarily need to leave a mark on someone in order for them to reasonably assume serious injury is imminent.

This is going to be a tough case investigate. Too many unknowns, and only one person is available to tell his side.

If it's true that Zimmerman was a crusader to hold cops accountable for racially-motivated beatings, it's interesting that his heroics there don't get as much media play as the doctored 911 call teryiong to paint him as a racist...

fishbones 04-05-2012 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931429)
The 911 phone call lasted for a substantial amount of time.. Did you listen to it? Also, I have seen the high detail video. It seems, to use one of your buddies on here favorite terms , common sense, that imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm would have caused a bit more damage. You right it is unproven but he did shoot and kill someone, who was unarmed. If Martin had busted into Zimmerman's house or gone after Zimmerman with a weapon without the provocation of chasing after him in the dark, it isn't even a story. It is the details that make it a story. I post what is reported about the night, you post a mostly irrelevant letter from a family member; irrelevant from a legal standpoint since the question isn't whether he killed him because of his race, but if he killed him because his own life was imminently threatened.
If someone was on top of you and slamming your head into the ground in the dark, and you couldn't see if they had a weapon, would you maybe think your life was being threatened? I guess Trayvon must have been telling Zimmerman not to worry because he was just giving him a beating and not really trying to hurt him. Unless you've been in the same situation, don't try to assume what either person was thinking at the time of the incident. You'd probably poop your pants if a punk kid in a hoodie came at you.

RIJIMMY 04-05-2012 10:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931429)
The 911 phone call lasted for a substantial amount of time.. Did you listen to it? Also, I have seen the high detail video. It seems, to use one of your buddies on here favorite terms , common sense, that imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm would have caused a bit more damage. You right it is unproven but he did shoot and kill someone, who was unarmed. If Martin had busted into Zimmerman's house or gone after Zimmerman with a weapon without the provocation of chasing after him in the dark, it isn't even a story. It is the details that make it a story. I post what is reported about the night, you post a mostly irrelevant letter from a family member; irrelevant from a legal standpoint since the question isn't whether he killed him because of his race, but if he killed him because his own life was imminently threatened.
My only point in posting the letter was to show a side (potentially, I have no idea if its true) the media is not showing of Z. I have stated all along that we need to know the evidence before passing judgement. I have no clue what happened. If it was purely up to me, Z would be behind bars. But thats my heart, not my head. We dont know the details but I have to believe that there should be forensic evidence eaither way
There is a contant theme among liberals to immediatly doubt the police. I immediately believe the police. I was disqualified from a jury 2 yrs ago for a murder trial. I was asked if I would tend to believe the testimony of a police officer over a normal citizen and I said yes. I think on average, most cops are good people trying to do good things. I think most citizens suck

zimmy 04-05-2012 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbones (Post 931515)
I guess Trayvon must have been telling Zimmerman not to worry because he was just giving him a beating and not really trying to hurt him.
Missing the point completely. But, if I am going after a "punk kid in a hoodie" (not sure where you come off calling him that) with my 9mm on me, I better not be the kind of person who poops themselves if the kid comes back at me. That points to one of the cardinal rules of gun ownership.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RIJIMMY (Post 931516)
My only point in posting the letter was to show a side (potentially, I have no idea if its true) the media is not showing of Z. I was asked if I would tend to believe the testimony of a police officer over a normal citizen and I said yes. I think on average, most cops are good people trying to do good things. I think most citizens suck
I think cops are citizens and like all realms of society, there are mostly good cops and a few bad. However, in this circumstance, I am suspicious that there may have been a tendency by some in the chain of command to hide behind the stand your ground law. Most citizens suck...interesting. That would make an interesting study, the correlation between opinions about citizens and political affiliations/tendencies.

fishbones 04-05-2012 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931519)
Missing the point completely. But, if I am going after a "punk kid in a hoodie" (not sure where you come off calling him that) with my 9mm on me, I better not be the kind of person who poops themselves if the kid comes back at me. That points to one of the cardinal rules of gun ownership.
There you go assuming again. There is nothing to show that Zimmerman went after Martin initially, just speculation (which you seem to take as fact). And based on the trouble the kid had been in in and out of school, he is a punk in my opinion. Just because he's a victim of a shooting doesn't make him a good kid.

Piscator 04-05-2012 11:08 AM
[QUOTE=zimmy;931519]But, if I am going after a "punk kid in a hoodie" (not sure where you come off calling him that) QUOTE]

Most kids that get suspended from school for 10 days are "punk kids"

Doesn't mean he should have been killed but lets face it, he was no model kid

RIJIMMY 04-05-2012 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931519)
That would make an interesting study, the correlation between opinions about citizens and political affiliations/tendencies.
it would only make an interesting study if you stereotype.
Im a conservative who is not religious, believes in gay marriage, pro-life and that 99% of drugs should be legalized. Put me in the margin of error of your study. As someone who tries to be a thoughtful member of society, most people I run into suck.

zimmy 04-05-2012 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbones (Post 931520)
There you go assuming again. There is nothing to show that Zimmerman went after Martin initially, just speculation
Speculation? Zimmerman said he followed him on the call to the police, and later in his report to police. Trayvon said he was being followed on the call to his girlfriend. That isn't speculation. This is friggin ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Piscator (Post 931522)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931519)
But, if I am going after a "punk kid in a hoodie" (not sure where you come off calling him that)
Most kids that get suspended from school for 10 days are "punk kids"

Doesn't mean he should have been killed but lets face it, he was no model kid
Kids get suspended from school all the time. I am sure if you took a poll of this site, you would find plenty of suspensions on here. He was suspended for possession of marijuana. "most kids who get suspened are punks?" :yak5: Scary stuff creeping out of the woodwork on here.

RIJIMMY 04-05-2012 12:11 PM
I did a lot of crap in HS but if I got suspended my dad would have broken every bone in my body.

Piscator 04-05-2012 12:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931531)
Kids get suspended from school all the time. I am sure if you took a poll of this site, you would find plenty of suspensions on here. He was suspended for possession of marijuana. "most kids who get suspened are punks?" :yak5: Scary stuff creeping out of the woodwork on here.
I never got suspended.

Most kids that get suspended are punks. Hopefully they learn from it and become responsible adults. Nothing scary at all about that statement at all.

zimmy 04-05-2012 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIJIMMY (Post 931523)
most people I run into suck.
That's too bad. Most I come in contact with are good, hard working people. Even the ones I disagree with on political matters are usually ok people.

Jim in CT 04-05-2012 12:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931531)
Speculation? Zimmerman said he followed him on the call to the police, and later in his report to police. Trayvon said he was being followed on the call to his girlfriend. That isn't speculation. This is friggin ridiculous.


Kids get suspended from school all the time. I am sure if you took a poll of this site, you would find plenty of suspensions on here. He was suspended for possession of marijuana. "most kids who get suspened are punks?" :yak5: Scary stuff creeping out of the woodwork on here.
Zimmy, we know Zimmerman (hey, we should start calling him Zimmy, too) was following Trayvon. We don't know how the altercation started, or how it progressed. Given that the right to self-defense depends entirely upon the details of the altercation, I'd say none of us are in any position to assume anything about whether or not Zimmerman was justified in fearing for his life.

And I believe Trayvon was suspended on 3 occasions. I'm no high school guidance counselor, but I'd bet every cent I have that less than 10% of high school students ever get suspended. And the % that get suspended more than once has to be very, very low.

That's not relevent to Zimmerman's guilt. It's very relevent in analyzng the disgusting media bias in this case.

fishbones 04-05-2012 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931531)
Speculation? Zimmerman said he followed him on the call to the police, and later in his report to police. Trayvon said he was being followed on the call to his girlfriend. That isn't speculation. This is friggin ridiculous.
It's ridiculous that you can conclude that Zimmerman attacked Martin just because he was following him. That's quite the leap there. Is it at all possible that Martin turned around and went after Zimmerman? You'd make one hell of a detective with you're reasoning.

And yes, in my opinion he's a punk. He was suspended from school 3times for having a pot pipe and residue, grafitti (when they searched his locker they found burglary tools and a bag of jewelry), and truancy. Oh, and if you can find transcrips from his twitter account before his parents deleted it, you'd see someone different than the poor little kid with the bag of Skittles.

RIJIMMY 04-05-2012 12:48 PM
google his tweets Zimbo

zimmy 04-05-2012 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931519)
But, if I am going after a "punk kid in a hoodie" (not sure where you come off calling him that) with my 9mm on me, I better not be the kind of person who poops themselves if the kid comes back at me. That points to one of the cardinal rules of gun ownership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbones (Post 931520)
There you go assuming again. There is nothing to show that Zimmerman went after Martin initially, just speculation
Quote:
Originally Posted by fishbones (Post 931541)
It's ridiculous that you can conclude that Zimmerman attacked Martin just because he was following him.
So I say he went after him, which he did. You say there was nothing to show that he went after him initially. Then you say I conclude he attacked him because he was following him? I never concluded that he attacked him. I said if you are armed and going to go after (ie follow) someone and you have a weapon, you better not be the pant crapping type. I''m not sure if you are intentionally twisting it or not.

fishbones 04-05-2012 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 931555)
So I say he went after him, which he did. You say there was nothing to show that he went after him initially. Then you say I conclude he attacked him because he was following him? I never concluded that he attacked him. I said if you are armed and going to go after (ie follow) someone and you have a weapon, you better not be the pant crapping type. I''m not sure if you are intentionally twisting it or not.
Ok, so I thought you meant "went after" as in atacking or jumping, or whatever. I didn't think you meant "following". In any case, neither you nor I were there to know what really happened. Martin is a punk and Zimmerman has an itchy trigger finger.

likwid 04-05-2012 04:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIJIMMY (Post 931544)
google his tweets Zimbo
I just tweeted that you touch goats in sacrilegious ways.
Just now.

zimmy 04-05-2012 09:31 PM
1 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by likwid (Post 931583)
I just tweeted that you touch goats in sacrilegious ways.
Just now.
I thought that was directed at me for a second. We've got three. Goats that is... no sacrilege though. We don't even milk em.

Jim in CT 04-06-2012 02:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles (Post 931215)
Zimmerman referred to Martin as a spook on the call.
That was widely reported at first. Enhanced audio, some of which was released today, suggests that is 100% untrue. I hope Zimmerman sues somebody for 100 zillion dollars...I can't recall anyone getting a more unfair deal. He may well have committed a felony, but the press has done him a horrific injustice.

And if the same thing happens next week, Al Sharpton will still be there, giving the same tired old speech. And no one will question him to his fat, disgusting, face.

I have good news and bad news for the Al Sharptons of the world. The good news is this...there is no widespread, institutional racism anymore, it doesn't exist. We have a black president. The battle for civil rights is over, and the good gyus won.

The bad news is, you (and all the other racial hucksters) need to find another soap box to preach upon.

JohnR 04-06-2012 02:35 PM
OK, this thread has run its course. If anything of substance comes along, maybe we can have a new thread. But this has been a circular argument.

I wish peace to Trayvon's family and hope they can find some closure. I hope the systems does what is is supposed to do, and make the appropriate call.


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