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Pete F. 06-18-2018 11:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144772)
"We do not have an open border"

we have, what, ten million undocumented people living here? A few years ago, a kid running for Congress, went to Mexico, and he crossed illegally back into the US, riding on an elephant, with a mariachi band walking with him, and he made it across (so the story goes). Effectively, it's open.

"What do you think people learn in prison? "

Nothing good. But they can't hurt civilians while in there, and that's at least a big part of why they are there.

"Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society?"

Probably not. If you want to spend some of my money to improve the programs to teach them marketable skills, I'm fine with that, if the programs work. I don't like spending money just to say you spent it.

"Why do you think white people do not commit crimes?"

For the same reason that Asian immigrants don't commit a lot of crimes. It has nothing to do with race, and everything to do with the culture that people embrace. Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.

"Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here"

No, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I'm in favor of brutal prison sentences for drug dealers.
Jim, there is an open border between each of the united states. I cannot just drive to Canada or Mexico without going thru Customs, nor can I fly to any country.
Anecdotal evidence is the populists response to issues. Rush and Bernie have been saving the world from all sorts of evils thru the media for years by citing anecdotal evidence.
People do enter this country illegally by crossing the border and also by overstaying their visas, like your friend. If you overstay your visa you have to wait three years to reapply.
We spend 50-60K a year per prison inmate to educate our prison inmates in how to be a better criminal.
We have the highest rate of recidivism in the world and you think that is the way to go?
Is it possible that the portion of the population that has the highest rate of incarceration continues to have higher and higher rates because of incarceration's effect on their culture?
You are incorrect about hispanics and rate of incarceration, it is much lower than blacks. But that would not fit into the evil Mexican image.
We have spent almost the last 50 years in a war on drugs and have made no headway.
We tried brutal sentences.
We have also let the Big Pharma create a whole new series of addicts, who then support the illegal sources.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 11:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1144774)
The majority of undocumented people in the US came legally and overstayed their visa. Illegal border crossings are at a 46 year low.



And there you have it. Hooboy.
Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?

Pete F. 06-18-2018 12:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144779)
Damn right there you have it.

70% of black babies are born without a dad. Poverty will never decrease meaningfully, until that statistic decreases meaningfully. I don't think skin color makes one more or less likely to have kids out of wedlock, so I say it's culture and decision-making.'

If I'm wrong, and I am sure you think I'm wrong, you tell me what's driving it?
The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 12:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144754)
Jim, here is the rate of incarceration per 100K population for the world. It seems other people have different solutions to issues than us.
10
Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 12:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144784)
The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?
Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.

Pete F. 06-18-2018 12:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144787)
Blacks who maintain th enuclear family and who are invested in their kids education, do just fine. Whites who drop out of school to have kids, struggle. There's way more to it than race.

"The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture"

Democrat American culture, in terms of slavery and segregation, not conservatives.

"There is no simple answer"

There actually is. Go to a good church on Sundays, and try to live according to the lessons taught. There's no easy answer, there is a simple answer. The simple answer is to do what's right, rather than what feels good at the moment.
Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

zimmy 06-18-2018 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144772)

Whites and Asians tend to embrace traditional family values and the value of education. Blacks and Hispanics (with encouragement from liberalism, in my opinion) tend to embrace a culture that encourages different, less productive, decision-making.
Black Kids Aren’t “Illegitimate,” Your Data Comprehension is: Racist Lies About Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates
https://medium.com/@timjwise/black-k...k-836fa501b869
:wavey:

Pete F. 06-18-2018 01:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144786)
Maybe we should bring back Public stonings and cutting chit off....That might help bring the numbers down.

Didn't see North Korea on the list either, where do you think they fall on the scale?
Since more than 75% go back to prison, that would be one solution.
I don't think a radical Islamic one is correct for us though you may disagree.
I would have no idea where North Korea falls, is that a nation you wish to be compared to?
My guess is they are lower since the only black person there in years has been Dennis Rodman and Jim says it's black culture that drives criminal activity.
He may have impregnated many of them lately, you know how those black guys are, give it a few years and they will catch up.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 01:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144789)
Prior to the Constitution there was mandatory church attendance in some places. People were also warned out of town so they wouldn’t become a burden on the residents
Should we go back to that?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I didn't say it should be mandatory. I have never said anything that stupid. I said it was a simple solution to many of our problems, and it is People are only interested in easy solutions, and there is no easy solution.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144784)
The Source of Black Poverty Isn't Black Culture, It's American Culture
Americans don't want to imagine that our racist history is actually an ongoing, racist reality.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...ulture/359937/
This wasn't even driven by Trump.
There is no simple answer.
I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim.
White fatherless children are over 30% now also.
I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live.
What do we do to change that, sink or swim or swimming lessons?
"I could go back to your argument about black abortions and see where that fits into the 70% claim."

Not sure what you mean by that, I'm as opposed to aborting black babies as I am to aborting white babies.

"White fatherless children are over 30% now also"

Yes. a disturbing trend. But 30 < 70.

"I do think that how you grew up has a great effect on how you will live."

Agreed 100%, which is why kids need good parents.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144795)
Jim says it's black culture that drives criminal activity.
.
Blacks who embrace traditional family values, do just fine.

In the 1950s, the nation was at the height of racial segregation, and black fatherlessness was less than half of what it is today. Therefore, it's not racism driving this, if it was, fatherlessness would have been higher when racism was more predominant.

Robbing poor people of their ability to rise out of poverty, and making them addicted to welfare instead, is also a stupid and short-sighted policy. And it's a cornerstone of liberalism.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 01:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zimmy (Post 1144793)
Black Kids Aren’t “Illegitimate,” Your Data Comprehension is: Racist Lies About Out-of-Wedlock Birthrates
https://medium.com/@timjwise/black-k...k-836fa501b869
:wavey:
That article was a desperate, pathetic attempt to deflect from the truth.

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 02:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144795)
I would have no idea where North Korea falls, is that a nation you wish to be compared to?
Well, the list was (supposed to be) the world, NK is part of it.

I mean you compared us to China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia with that list. Is that who you wish to compare us to? Do you think our criminals would get a fairer shake in those countries than here?

The US averages 35 executions a year, China over a 1000....maybe therein lies the answer. I mean they average a 1/4 less incarcerations than the US, but over 30 times as many executions.

Pete F. 06-18-2018 02:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144800)

Robbing poor people of their ability to rise out of poverty, and making them addicted to welfare instead, is also a stupid and short-sighted policy. And it's a cornerstone of liberalism.
This is what i refer to with Lifeguards or Swimming lessons.
If you had two groups of children and two pools
Group A was given a lifeguard and let loose at the pool.
Group B was given a lifeguard and swimming lessons, then let loose at the pool.
What do you think the result would be at the end of the summer?
I think welfare should be like lifeguards and swimming lessons, both necessary but swimming lessons make lifeguards far less important to swimming. The problem is you can't stop the lessons when they get in water too deep just because.
Some will provide lifeguards because you can't just let them die.
Some will provide lifeguards and swimming lessons because they want them to succeed, but another will cut the swimming lessons because they can just stay out of the pool.

Pete F. 06-18-2018 02:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144804)
Well, the list was (supposed to be) the world, NK is part of it.

I mean you compared us to China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia with that list. Is that who you wish to compare us to? Do you think our criminals would get a fairer shake in those countries than here?

The US averages 35 executions a year, China over a 1000....maybe therein lies the answer. I mean they average a 1/4 less incarcerations than the US, but over 30 times as many executions.
It is actually really simple.
I don't actually what other countries do, I care what we do.
We have a higher rate of incarceration and recidivism than anyone else in the world.
In the last decade it has had a downward trend but for 40 years before that consistently went up.
Before the 70s it was a consistent percentage pretty common to the rest of the developed world.
If you think that it is worth $400 from every citizen of the US to incarcerate people and are willing to pay more each year, that is your choice. Remember you are paying that to provide the best training for criminals and paying more for it than a college education. I think it could be improved on and other countries have some alternatives that could be considered.

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144806)
It is actually really simple.
I don't actually what other countries do, I care what we do.
We have a higher rate of incarceration and recidivism than anyone else in the world.
In the last decade it has had a downward trend but for 40 years before that consistently went up.
Before the 70s it was a consistent percentage pretty common to the rest of the developed world.
If you think that it is worth $400 from every citizen of the US to incarcerate people and are willing to pay more each year, that is your choice. Remember you are paying that to provide the best training for criminals and paying more for it than a college education. I think it could be improved on and other countries have some alternatives that could be considered.
I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144807)
I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".
You could argue that our moral compass is broken, leading many to break our laws. But that doesn't mean our criminal justice system is broken.

spence 06-18-2018 03:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144807)
I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".
Or has policy helped put them there? The War on Drugs has had a massive impact on incarceration of minorities and many argue it was a racially motivated to begin with.

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 03:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1144809)
Or has policy helped put them there? The War on Drugs has had a massive impact on incarceration of minorities and many argue it was a racially motivated to begin with.
Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?

Pete F. 06-18-2018 03:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144807)
I guess the big question would be "Do they deserve to be there?" If they are breaking laws and are being sentenced to prison because of their bad choices, then there isn't really anything that's "Broken".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144808)
You could argue that our moral compass is broken, leading many to break our laws. But that doesn't mean our criminal justice system is broken.
If the goal is to make sure people are punished, then it works perfectly and crime increasing is an unfortunate but necessary byproduct.
I would assume you have never made a bad choice, and if you have luck has been on your side or you could afford good representation.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 03:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144811)
If the goal is to make sure people are punished, then it works perfectly and crime increasing is an unfortunate but necessary byproduct.
I would assume you have never made a bad choice, and if you have luck has been on your side or you could afford good representation.
"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE? Has that aspect ever crossed your mind? You sure don't seem to give that any consideration.

scottw 06-18-2018 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144813)
"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE?
that's pretty racist

spence 06-18-2018 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144810)
Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?
It's not a yes or no question.

RIROCKHOUND 06-18-2018 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144810)
Yes or No, Did they or didn't they break the law?
The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottw (Post 1144814)
that's pretty racist
That's me, always wearing a white sheet.

spence 06-18-2018 04:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND (Post 1144819)
The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.
I think he was talking about any minority ever busted on a drug charge.

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1144818)
It's not a yes or no question.
Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.

They break the law, get arrested, go to trial, are found guilty, and get sentenced.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RIROCKHOUND (Post 1144819)
The asylum seekers, no.
The undocumented/illegals, yes.
I agree, asylum seekers usually ask 1st
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

The Dad Fisherman 06-18-2018 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1144824)
I think he was talking about any minority ever busted on a drug charge.
Way to bring race into the conversation.

What’s a matter, was I making to much sense and you went for the usual trump card......RACIST!!!
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

spence 06-18-2018 05:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144825)
Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.
True, not if you're white. At least much less likely.

scottw 06-18-2018 05:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144828)

Way to bring race into the conversation.


....RACIST!!!


Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
I'd be shocked if they didn't...

Sea Dangles 06-18-2018 05:21 PM
Haha, Spence is having a tough time quite often as of late. You guys should stop putting him in an awkward position. He should not have to explain his thought process.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 05:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dad Fisherman (Post 1144825)
Yes, yes it is.

People don’t just walk down the street, slip on a banana peel, and ooooops land in prison.

They break the law, get arrested, go to trial, are found guilty, and get sentenced.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
They go to trial, where they have due process, they have an attorney, and there is a significant burden that gets met before anyone goes to prison. It ain't perfect, but it's the best system there is.

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sea Dangles (Post 1144834)
Haha, Spence is having a tough time quite often as of late. You guys should stop putting him in an awkward position. He should not have to explain his thought process.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
He is really coming un-glued.

detbuch 06-18-2018 06:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144769)
Those were questions for Jim, why would I answer for him?
He seems to be quite capable, though I might disagree with his opinions.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
If I was interested in his answer I would have asked him. I asked you why don't you give some answers in response to the list of questions you posed to Jim.

I also asked you what you would do to stop illegals from their misdemeanor activity of illegal border crossing? Would lowering our incarceration rate do the trick? Would it be fixed by answering the questions you posed to Jim such as: "What do you think people learn in prison? Do they learn useful skills that help them succeed in society? Do they learn how to be more successful at life from other criminals? Why do you think white people do not commit crimes? Is our crime rate because we do not have a lily white society? Don't forget Trump was very impressed by Duterte's war on drugs, that killed thousands of people, would you go along with that if he attempted that here?"

Would you simply do nothing? Would you do what past administrations did, which did not stop the misdemeaning. Would you punish the misdemeanors by giving them "a path to citizenship" or just letting them stay on some other basis? Would that stop the misdemeanor activity?

What the administration is doing seems appropriate to me. What would you do?

detbuch 06-18-2018 06:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by spence (Post 1144770)
Clearly many feel the journey is worth the risk.

Clearly, all criminals feel crime is worth the risk. And, clearly, criminals do not think they should be punished.

If the status quo is unsustainable you have to change.

To which status quo are you referring? The national debt? The overextended welfare state? The relative ease of illegal immigration that is clearly worth the risk?

Just curious if he really practices what he's preached. I'd note even Jeff Session's own church rejected his biblical justification.
Why do you care, and how does what Jim practices re his religion impact his opinions about secular law--you know, that separation of church and state thingy?

detbuch 06-18-2018 07:59 PM
Pet F., I watched your The Gods Must Be Crazy movie. Twas interesting. Maybe you could watch this video a say a few words about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvwhiD3FdU

Pete F. 06-18-2018 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim in CT (Post 1144813)
"If the goal is to make sure people are punished"

HOW ABOUT IF THE GOAL IS TO PREVENT DANGEROUS PEOPLE FROM HURTING INNOCENT PEOPLE? Has that aspect ever crossed your mind? You sure don't seem to give that any consideration.
If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years.
There are no absolutes in life, you can no more stop crime with prison than by having more guns.
Do you think all criminals are inherently evil? And all people who have not been charged with a crime good?
I didn’t say we should not have jails, but that we should use them judiciously.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim in CT 06-18-2018 08:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete F. (Post 1144866)
If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years.
There are no absolutes in life, you can no more stop crime with prison than by having more guns.
Do you think all criminals are inherently evil? And all people who have not been charged with a crime good?
I didn’t say we should not have jails, but that we should use them judiciously.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device
"If with our current system we have 75% recidivism how does that stop anything for more than a few years."

How many people can a bad person hurt in "a few years"? A lot. You haven't given this much thought. Put down the Kool Aid for ten seconds, and think.

"Do you think all criminals are inherently evil?"

No. Some are unlucky.

Pete F. 06-18-2018 08:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by detbuch (Post 1144865)
Pet F., I watched your The Gods Must Be Crazy movie. Twas interesting. Maybe you could watch this video a say a few words about it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTvwhiD3FdU
His mother must have abused him.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device


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