Seems any discussions involving a few guys around here turn ugly..
It's unfortunate that it has to come to that..
I say we set up the octagon.
Lets Get It On...
...

Good points!

Help me. I'm confused.
 

I can't really see why everyone's wigging out here. The ONLY negative thing in this entire thread (besides the flames and pissing). Is that pogies in the bay will CHANGE surf fishing. NO ONE (except as far as I can tell DZ for what seems like a well thought out OPINION)
says it will be a bad thing, EVEN THE GUYS WHO THINK IT MIGHT, I STRESS MIGHT, hurt a few surfside spots, agrees this is a GOOD THING. If you think otherwise, go back and re-read the thread.

Holy mossbunker! Forage is key. Look what's happening up North, epic arguing, with the lobsterman and the herring boats and the tuna boats and the groundfish boats. Resources should be managed not individually but ecologically. It is the future to a sustainable planet. The relationship of one thing to another. Whatever we can do to improve the productivity of our estuaries is, I think, a good thing. Oysters and pogies and eel grass. The Trinity. Pass the hot sauce, please.

I go on a business trip for a week and all hell breaks loose.

OK, my 2 cents.

Banning the taking of Pogies by ARK bait is a GOOD thing. It will benefit everyone. To say that the rec guys should also be prohibited from taking Pogies is ridiculous. It's like saying that all deer hunters should be banned because one nitwit goes out and slaughters 10 deer.

There is a big difference between a rec guy in a boat like me snagging a half dozen pogies to live line and Ark bait netting 50, 000 pogies on one drag.

If they do ban Ark bait from netting Pogies there will be a lot more Pogies...EVERYWHERE!!! The upper Bay will not support a huge biomass for an entire season. Sooner or later many of the Pogies will filter down the Bay and end up around Narragansett. Do you think there will be a line of demarcation where the pogies will stop?

And what about fishing the bay from shore. Last I hear Jamestown was in the Bay. Casey, Point, Sally Rock, Goddard Park, Barrington Beach, Colt State Park, Rome Point, Sabin Point. Pojac Point, Warren River, etc, etc.
Everyone will benefit from the commercial ban.

This thread is indicative on a small scale of the biggest problem we as recreational fisherman suffer in regards to protecting our small piece of the pie. The commercial industry presents a united front with concise goals and a strong clear effort. It seems we instead opt to engage in civil wars with no resolution ultimately leading to few positive results.

Paul I think they count their drag by the metric ton. I dont think they count individual pogies like say 50, 000 per say.

I'm just going to ignore eben on this...... obvious signs of rectal cranium insertion.... basically he cant catch fish when there pogies around soooo.... advocate for the surfcaster... *insert laugh*

Thanks Vic. My mistake, but eveyone gets my point.

yeah those dudes clean up something fierce if they set their minds to it.

Amen brother goosefish!
Ecosystem based management is the key.
It does start from the ground up.

Damn this thread exploded!!!
Everybody take a DEEP breath, relax and realzie that ultimatly we are all on the same side (the bass) ...

As the great philosofer Bob Dylan said
"We always did feel the same,
We just saw it from a different point of view,
Clammer's Tangled up in blues." (OK. added a bit :D)"


What I would like to see:
Numbers (#pounds Ark takes/yr) vs. the total catch coastwide
Would they still be scarfing them up outside the bay, before they get to RI? Probably unless more wide reaching legislation is passed. This would be a good step though.

Everyone is probably right to some extent:
The structure of fish would change in the surf and in the bay. They'd be around but maybe have different patterns, maybe not.
large schools of pogies in the bay would make bass an easier target for commercial and recreational fisherman no doubt..



When I was a kid it was the moratorium, but I remember Newport harbor LOADED with adult pogies and monster bluefish all summer. Was it a good thing? Of course. With the population of bass back up it should be a benefit, especially in the bay.

Lets be honest; in the context of Narragansett bay pogies would be a good thing, but what I'm curious is how much of a drop in the bucket is it coastwide. (Ark is potatoes next to Omega protein). we need healthy stocks of bait fish throughout the range of the bass. With out that any benefit will probably be localized in my opinion.

I've heard rumblings from biologists who would never want to be quoted, that the bay may not handle the large population of pogies from decades ago because improved water quality has decreased some of the nutrients (algae) in the bay.. go figure...

[QUOTE=piemma;456808]

There is a big difference between a rec guy in a boat like me snagging a half dozen pogies to live line and Ark bait netting 50, 000 pogies on one drag.

QUOTE]

You are probably right... but how can you be sure there is a big difference in the overall impact between comms and recs? There are alot of boats out there snagging a couple dozen at a time several times a week for months. I hear the same argument about the rec vs comm. striper catch. The data indicates that recs dramatically out-harvest the comms. with bass.

RIrockhound,
In my unscientific opinion, the bunker reaching RI and MA now, are a direct result of NJ's reduction boat bill 4 years ago. Thats a pretty short period to realize such great results so far north. I think maintaining strong abundance of bunker in the bay will be a huge stepping stone for expanding populations of the bunkers northern territory. Its not just about us in RI, the bay or Striped Bass or surfcasters
What Narragansett and Buzzards Bay is seeing is just the tail end of the bunker biomass. What we are seeing now is not close to what we remember, at least when I was young.

Thats along my points. Pogies grow fast, results should be quick (I think)
I remain unclear whether it is the NJ bill or whether the upswing is some kind of natural anomaly. I'm for it. I just don't know the coastwide impact yet. Thats all.. WTF! I'm a geologist anyways :D not a biologist!

[QUOTE=zimmy;456861]Zimmy:
Point well taken. But, I still don't think the rec bass guys or the comm bass guys will make a dent in the Pogie population compared to what the ARK bait boats and their spotter planes do. We are talking tons as opposed to pounds of pogies harvested.

It is an eastern seaboard species. However the pogies that make it up this way tend to spawn up this way. Maybe the Bay has seen an increase in the numbers of diatoms the past couple of years. Increase the food supple, reduce the harvest, hope for a strong year class and what do you have---snag hooks, burned drags, bunker oil on the hands.

Wow! I guess it really is winter. Lots of pent up energy being vented. I hope everyone feels better. Anyway, seems I’m definitely in the minority here (as I thought I would be). But it’s not very often that I back a commercial fishing entity so I kind of expected disagreement. I try and think of both sides of an issue even if it is mostly beneficial to me, I always want to see if there are any “hidden consequences” that might not be desirable. If my opinion got your noggins to thinking - it worked.

So here is how I figure this will pan out: Comment on this bill will include those from all sides. Bait Shops, RISAA, Save the Bay, Arc Bait, and Commercial Fishermen. The wild card will be comments from representatives from the RI Division of Fish and Wildlife and maybe the commercial fishing industry groups. Division Biologists are routinely called on to give a scientific view of whether a bill has legitimate basis for concern. In other words, do RI fisheries biologists believe that Arc Baits take of Narragansett Bay menhaden is detrimental to the health of the bay, etc? I think this will be the key. Commercial fishing organizations may also weigh in as they normally back each other. Commercial fishermen don’t want to see a “precedent” setting action go against them. I’m sure the draggers will be watching closely as they’ve been the target of talks like this before. Normally I don’t think the legislature would pass a bill that would put someone out of business, especially in the hard hit commercial fishing industry, BUT in this case it is a Massachusetts company, not from RI, so maybe they would.

Another scenario will be the legislature telling the RIMFC to broker some sort of “agreement” with Arc Bait about placing certain areas off limits or placing a quota on their take from Narragansett Bay. It will also be interesting to see if the RIMFC takes up discussion of this bill at a future hearing – and will they have to endorse it?

What would happen if this bill passes? Not really sure on this one. Arc Bait may just fold but I don’t think that will happen, especially if large menhaden are making a comeback. They’ll probably just go to other areas where it is legal to take pogies.

DZ

I hope all you guys who lined up to take free bait from the big red boat smiled pretty when they took your picture, your about to become stars at the state house, one of the lynchpins of Arks defense. See at least they were thinking ahead!
Slinger

Ark Bait Co Inc - Detailed Company Profile

Year Started: 1978
State of Incorporation: N/A
URL: N/A
Location type: Single Location
Stock Symbol: N/A
Stock Exchange: N/A
Also Does Business As: N/A
NAICS: Sporting and Recreational Goods and Supplies Merchant Wholesalers; Sporting Goods Stores
Est. Annual Sales: $3,600,000
Est. Employees: 17
Est. Employees at Location: 2
Contact Name: Gerald Souza
Contact Title: President

wow destroying a bay costs roughly 3.6 mil a year

Just two observations. 1) Ark bait will, probably, continue to take the same amount of pogies every year, they'll just change locations. So for the east coast biomass of menhaden there will be no change. 2) the lobstermen will fight this tooth and nail, since if it succeeds it will drive up the cost of bait. Lost of lobstermen out there and they have recently taken several hits, with pot limits, size increases and mandatory v-notching.

1. they'll have to move, away from us, then away from someone else, eventually they'll have no place. Its a start, giving up isnt going to change anything.

2. it'll balance out for all the years they were at the herring runs taking every herring they could to use as lobster bait. :jump:

Vic,
They need go no further than the entrance to the bay. How do the pogies get up there, fly?

The problem is that the lobstermen have a lot of poltical clout and sympathy for the hits they've taken lately. If they oppose it'll be a rock road to get it passed.

keep them out of anything possible mike.


sounds like you're on the other side of the fence on this one :whackin: thats a shame..

Not really on the other side of the fence. I'm just wondering if we have the ability to win this fight and if its worth the political capital we will spend on it. Lots of more contentious things in play right now, like the coming salt water license. The coming crisis with scup and sea bass. And several other things that strike me as much more importent to the average RI angler.

license cant pass.... that was tough...

scup and seabass are for comms and charters..

not really that big of an agenda for me personally (neither a comm or a charter)...... So scup and seabass limits go down.... it'd be all the same to me:cheers: Doubt I'm the only person in the state that feels this way :tooth:

hahaha you said scup and seabass were more important...:jester:

I'll have two of what you're havin'

Vic,
A license is coming, if not state, then federal, it was contained in the Magnesson-Stevens reauthorization that passed in December and was signed into law in January. Its a done deal, now we get to argue about the details.

Scup and sea bass may not be important to you, but they are certainly important to all the tackle shops. They sell a lot more scup and sea bass bait than eels for stripers.

State is being forced to do the lic!! if they don't do it the feds will, this means the state will lose the money, so if its going to happen the state will do so as not to lose the cash!

I for one will never pay for a Saltwater lic!! Not until they move all the dragger's out to 3 mile limit!
What are we going to get for are money?? Nothing!!

I am not against dragger's, they do what they allow them to do, but they have ruined the inshore fishery! There is no place for them inshore!

When the DMF and others start protecting the inshore fishery so that those of us that fish it can, and catch fish, then and only then will I pay for a lic.

Ark is usually only getting pogies locally for a short time.They will just move the boats to New Jersey earlier than usual and the bait shops and lobstermen will get their bait the same way they do all summer.

MM;
Totally agree. and it is limit driven.
You drop bass down to 1 fish the bait guys care less. People still fish.
You drop scup, seabass, Blackfish (look at the flap this year) and the squid/worms/crabs sales go way down.

Vic it isn't a shame. Mike is pointing out some very obvious and very real truths. I have spent my share of time at fisheries meeting for non-bass species. I guess lump me in on 'that side' of the fence. I'm not anti-commercial, especially if it is done the right way.

Bryan,
And I just heard that the ASMFC wants to cut tog by another 28%. If anyone is iterested I'll post the press release in a separate thread.