JohnR,

I posted something political as a response to the post of Christian, who is 16, and obviously has a lot of talent making plugs. It disturbed my to see him making a joke out of killing and death. I made the first post, only half serious, in the hopes that he would take a second to examine what he was saying. Everything has snowballed from there.

If you could turn me in for a reward, that would prove my point.

Please don't threaten me.

Fishpart,

You make an excellent point.

I am dubious about this war because I don't believe that the reasons which you have sited are the reasons why we are going to war.

so Your a terrorist?
what the hell , You pick a booger and pull Your brain out:laughs:

There probably are numerous reasons that are not being mentioned for war - some valid and some not. In a perfect world (well, there wouldn't be war) you could probably spell all the reasons for doing it. But it ain't perfect. There is also a lot of information we are not seeing behind this. Do we have the right to? Freedom of information says we can in 30 years... For now, much is classified.

I see where you are coming from. When I was your age the last time a war with Iraq was coming, many of my close friends (from BU, go figure :D ) felt the same way as you do now. Looking for the moral and factual truth for justification, the right & wrong. It's easy to feel that way when a prof (not all, just some) or some of your enlightened peers tells you thats the way it should be and in all your discussions, come to the same conclusion - and in a perfect world it could be - but this world is far from perfect. I felt different from a lot of my friends back then. I had seen oppressed people, I had seen terrorism, I had seen smaller and in many ways less dangerous versions of what we see now. Sending your people in harm's way should never be taken lightly but it is often necessary.

Mike - that mis-quoted Chuchill quote you had, had not heard it before but its right on target :)

No, I'm not a terrorist. Please.


I'll explain.
I am a law abiding citizen who disagrees with the actions of his country.
If I could be turned in for an award or even arrested and held for my beliefs, it would demonstrate that something was seriously wrong in this country.
The freedoms that the United States was founded on were about protecting the freedom to disagree with government.

So please don't be aggressive towards me.
This is serious s#%*.

serious really,,,,,,,, blow the turds up, thats how I feel and Im blunt and to the point.

I've never seen a serious s#%*.:p
im with BM on this one.

Ho, hum <insert shaking head icon here>.....

I guess few paid any attention to my last post (okay, second to last) on this thread.

Anger gets you nowhere.....except perhaps into a war......gee, there's a thought!

Not taking either side, as I agree with points from both perspectives......and I think I am doing it rationally, thinking about what has been said from both sides, and CALMLY and thoughfully drawing my conclusions.

But name calling, anger, and ASSUMPTIONS get us nowhere in the world, except into war......so I guess perhaps that's the problem...

<insert that sad, shaking head icon that doesn't exist again here>

:(

blow them up Im:happy: today
I want cheap gass again

Never mind....:(

An Open Letter To The Hollywood Bunch

Ok, let's just say for a moment you bunch of pampered, overpaid, unrealistic
children had your way and the U.S.A. didn't go into Iraq.

Let's say that you really get your way and we destroy all our nuclear weapons and stick daisies in our gun barrels and sit around with some white wine and cheese and pat ourselves on the back, so proud of what we've done for world peace.

Let's say that we cut the military budget to just enough to keep the National Guard on hand to help out with floods and fires.

Let's say that we close down our military bases all over the world and bring the troops home, increase our foreign aid and drop all the trade sanctions against everybody.

I suppose that in your fantasy world this would create a utopian world here everybody would live in peace. After all, the great monster, the United States of America, the cause of all the world's trouble would have disbanded it's horrible military and certainly all the other countries of the world would follow suit. After all, they only arm themselves to defend their countries from the mean old U.S.A.

Why you bunch of pitiful, hypocritical, idiotic, spoiled mugwumps. get your head out of the sand and smell the Trade Towers burning. Do you think that a trip to Iraq by Sean Penn did anything but encourage a wanton murderer to think that the people of the U.S.A. didn't have the nerve or the guts to fight him?

Barbra Streisand's fanatical and hateful rantings about George Bush makes about as much sense as Michael Jackson hanging a baby over a railing.

You people need to get out of Hollywood once in a while and get out into the real world. You¹d be surprised at the hostility you would find out here. Stop in at a truck stop and tell an overworked, long distance truck driver that you don¹t think Saddam Hussein is doing anything wrong. Tell a farmer with a couple of sons in the military that you think the United States has no right to defend itself. Go down to Baxley, Georgia and hold an anti-war rally and see what the folks down there think about you.Please visit Clarksville, Tennessee and the 101st Airborne and talk that #^&#^&#^&#^&, please visit those Real American's.

You people are some of the most disgusting examples of a waste of protoplasm
I¹ve ever had the displeasure to hear about.

Sean Penn, you¹re a traitor to the United States of America. You gave aid and comfort to the enemy. How many American lives will your little, "fact finding trip" to Iraq cost? You encouraged Saddam to think that we didn't have the stomach for war. You people protect one of the most evil men on the face of this earth and won't lift a finger to save the life of an unborn baby.

Freedom of choice you say?

Well I'm going to exercise some freedom of choice of my own. If I see any of your names on a marquee, I'm going to boycott the movie. I will completely stop going to movies if I have to. In most cases it certainly wouldn't be much of a loss.

You scoff at our military who's boots you're not even worthy to shine. They go to battle and risk their lives so ingrates like you can live in luxury. The day of reckoning is coming when you will be faced with the undeniable truth that the war against Saddam Hussein is the war on terrorism.

America is in imminent danger. You¹re either for her or against her. There is no middle ground. I think we all know where you stand. I will stand with the soldiers, airmen, and sailors. The hard working men and women of this great country. Not the overpaid, pansy ass, Hollywood wimp wanna be's, and has beens, who can't hold a candle to real American's, the middle class blue collar workers.

What do you think? Boycott any Hollywood type that protest against the USA.

God Bless America

Charlie Daniels

Bombs Away
 

Bombs Away

I'm reserving my opinion on the war, but I need to express my opinion on some charges against this country. Our country.

I often hear the "if we attack, aren't we the same as them" type of statement and I think that's a very dangerous and dilusional opinion. Comparing the two countries is ridiculous. The very fact that all of us can express our opinions freely without fear of being executed, tortured along with our families seems to make such comparisons silly. Therefore, any simple, blanket comparisons between our countries and their societies are pointless. As much as anyone can disagree with Bush, I don't think we can quite lump him in with Saddam Hussien. By no means do I think the Bush Administration is in this to free the Iraqi people and they should drop that argument because its transparent and those are not our motivations. It would be a healthy bi-product, but there are plenty of oppressed people around the globe... are we going to free everyone?

Other similar comparisons or examples such as "if a terrorist group from the US attacked China, should they attack us" are also ridiculous. If that happened here, those people would be relentlessly pursued and brought to justice by our own law enforcement. We wouldn't aid them, harbor them or support them in any way as is often the case with many of these countries. And we certainly wouldn't rely on another country to take care of these terrorists for us. This is another difference that prevents such comparisons.

If anyone has spent even a limited time following events over the past years, you would know that radical Muslims approve of attacks on innoncent civilians and their leaders encourage and support such actions. Indeed, I have seen many interviews with many of these people and they support "death to all Americans"... Meanwhile, many Muslims of various descent, from Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran, etc etc live freely in our society. So, apparently that is another big difference as we as a people and the gov't do not support death to all Muslims or death to all Iraqis. In fact, if war is necessary, and this is not an endorsement, I guarantee you will see a great deal of effort go in to limiting civilian casualties... At the same time, would you not be safe in assuming that Saddam and many other Muslim leaders in our position would attempt to maximize civilian casualties. It would be the easiest thing for us to carpet bomb the whole country into oblivion, but you will see surgical strikes directed at Military targets. It won't be nerve gas, mustard gas, or biological weapons which Saddam has used before... it will be laser guided smart bombs.

And finally, the notion that this is a war about oil is again, ridiculous. If you are aware of other current global issues, you would be aware that Venezuela, one of the biggest oil producers in the world, is in absolute chaos right now. If we were only interested in oil, we could throw a bunch of aid, etc. at them and get all the oil we want. It would cost a heck of alot less than a war. Or if by "war for oil" persons own logic, we could easily "take over" Venezuela and take all the oil. We aren't trying to take over Iraq for oil.

Now look, I'm not naive and I know that during the cold war, our gov't did some shady things and worked with some sketchy "resistance" (aka... terrorist) groups. Our nation is not always the good guys in every situation. But using over-simplistic comparisons serves no purpose. I get fed up with our gov't for alot of reasons all the time. I think gov't is getting out of hand in terms of size and structure. Talk about a bunch of BS. Just spend some time reading the tax laws... instant migraine. I think there's alot of room for change, but I also believe this is the greatest country in the world. And I wouldn't want to live anywhere else. And I don't appreciate hearing comparisons between our gov't and dictatorships that starve, torture and slaughter their own people while they live in palaces. They just have no place in this debate.

One other important point, people speaking out against the war are not necessarily bad Americans or un-patriotic. People are allowed their own opinon. Our society is based on those very freedoms. If there was no debate on the issue, I would be frightened.

And what really scares me, is to see people take a stance based on their political affiliation. "I support the war 'cause I love Bush" "I'm against the war 'cause I hate Bush" That scares me.

ps... I'm not directing that at anyone in this thread... I have to be honest, after reading several statements I really only skimmed the rest. This actually based more on media members that instead of reporting the news, try to alter your opinion and put their own slant into the stories. And watching the debates of "experts" on CNN or Fox in which you can predict everything someone will say once you determine if they are "right" or "left"...

Regardless of the fact that they apologized, it looks like the Dixie Chicks joined the Hollywood Bunch in the land of disrespect and may learn a good lesson on how opening one's big mouth can have a career altering effect. I like the way the Bush camp responded. A 33,000 pound tractor makes quite a statement.

March 16, 2003 (Shreveport, Louisiana-AP) --

A few hundred protesters used a 33-thousand pound tractor to obliterate compact disks and other items by the Texas trio.

They're lashing back at lead singer Natalie Maines, who last week told a London audience -- quote -- "Just so you know, we're ashamed the president of the United States is from Texas."

Maines has since apologized in a public statement, saying her remarks were disrespectful.

Trying To Help
 

Watching yet more protestors being arrested and dispersed on the news last night, it was sort of timely to get this in the mail this morning:
Trying to Help
>by Dennis Miller
>
>All the rhetoric on whether or not we should go to war against Iraq has got my insane little brain spinning like a roulette wheel. I enjoy reading opinions from both sides but I have detected a hint of confusion from some of you. As I was reading the paper recently, I was reminded of the best advice someone ever gave me. He told me about the KISS method ("Keep It Simple, Stupid!"), so, with this as a theme, I'd like to apply this theory for those who don't quite get it. My hope is that we can
simplify things a bit and recognize a few important facts.
Here are 10 things to consider when voicing an opinion on this
important issue:
>
Out of President Bush and Saddam Hussein... Hussein is the bad guy.
>
If you have faith in the United Nations to do the right thing, keep
this in mind: They have Libya heading the committee on human rights and Iraq heading the global disarmament committee. Do your own math here.
>
If you use a Google search and type in "French military victories,"
your reply will be "Did you mean French military defeats?"
>
If your only anti-war slogan is "No war for oil!" sue your school
district for allowing you to slip through the cracks and robbing you of the education you deserve.
>
Saddam and bin Laden will not seek United Nations approval before they try to kill us.
>
Despite common belief, Martin Sheen is not the president. He plays one on TV.
>
Even if you are anti-war, you are still an "infidel" and bin Laden
wants you dead, too.
>
If you believe in a "vast right-wing conspiracy" but not in the danger that Hussein poses, quit hanging out with the Dell computer dude.
>
We are not trying to liberate them.
>
Whether you are for military action or against it, our young men and women overseas are fighting for us to defend our right to speak out. We all need to support them without reservation.
>

Well then I will keep it simple.

- Many of the reasons that we are being given for this war are clearly fraudulent.

- There is no reason to think that this war will make Americans safer.

- There is no demonstrated connection between Iraq and 9-11.

- It is wrong to kill people unless you have an excellent reason.

:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

- Many of the reasons that we are being given for this war are clearly fraudulent.
I suppose depending on whose perspective you're looking at it from, that would be a totally correct assumption. Then again is everything those protesting the war are telling the press completely true? I don't even think when it comes right down to it that there are many reasons being given for this conflict.

- There is no reason to think that this war will make Americans safer.
Ultimately, if we accomplish our goals, it should! However, in the name of Liberty and Justice for All we will probably always be the target of some terrorist group or faction, or another.

- There is no demonstrated connection between Iraq and 9-11.
Am I mistaken, or was a high ranking al Quaida recently arrested and determined to have masterminded the 9-11 attack. I don't think there's any doubt about in most people's minds.

- It is wrong to kill people unless you have an excellent reason.
This is a completely correct statement. The "people" in this case are being given every opportunity to turn their tank turrets backwards and hold their hands in the air. It's up to them to do so or they're going a casualty of the "excellent reason" as, unfortunately, will some of our own.

Ok, I'm coming out of the closet... I am against the war at this time, and I have my own reasons for that. I think Saddam has to go and I believe that given more time, we can generate more support for that. I think the Bush Admin. is being a little reckless with the politics of all this. He is justifying alot of the world's opinion of the US. I definitely think the time is now, but now could mean within the next few months, and with everyone (except for France) onboard, things may go down a little differently. That's my opinion... I may be wrong, may be right, just my opinon.

Yes, war sucks, but sometimes its a necessary evil. If we go to war within a few hours, I hope it is quick and collateral damage is minimal, which I believe it can be. I don't really see any other way to get Hussein out of there, and I really believe its important to end all his BS.

FCAlive, you make 4 simple points. Unfortunately, I think you are way off base and while your reasons appear to be justified, they are way oversimplified.

"many reasons given are false"

True. And this will always be the case. I agree that the suggestion that we are in this to free the Iraqi people is BS. If anyone believes that is our primary reason, they are pretty naive. This administration believes that Iraq is a threat to our national security because they are developing weapons of mass destruction and would be likely to sell those weapons to terrorists once developed. That is the reason for this war. That is what you must decide that you believe or don't believe. Are they a threat to do that? These countries are not a threat to attack or overthrow the US. But they are run by ruthless, greedy dictators who also hate us. Of course they would take millions of dollars for weapons they develop that some nut will then set off within our borders. Do you truly believe that isn't the case?

And I'll repeat from my earlier post, "war for oil" is just plain dumb.

"no reason to think we will be safer"

In the short run, you may be right. This could set off terrorist attacks in retaliation, and in fact, do some reading, many US officials believe that is very likely and have publicly stated this.

In the long run, I completely disagree with you for the same reason I gave above. He is and will continue to be dangerous to us for those reasons. It is countries like Iraq that support terrorists by allowing them a safe place to train, develop weapons, etc. The whole region is unstable and he is a large part of that.

"no demonstrated link between Iraq and 9-11"

Again, I agree. But there has been a demonstrated link between Iraq and Al Quaeda and many other terrorist groups. In many of these arrests, the suspects have Iraqi passports and its clear that they travel freely within their country. And we already knew that was the case. Whether Saddam had any direct link to 9-11 is unrelated... I'm sure he enjoyed it, but he probably had nothing to do with it. I'm not sure that a 9-11 link is being used as a reason for the war. Its his support of the type of people who have and would do these things that the US wants to end.

"its wrong to kill unless you have an excellent reason"

True. I'm sure that the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis that Saddam's regime has tortured, raped and murdered would agree with that. I'm sure that the millions terrorized by Al Quaeda across the country and world would agree with that. And I'm certain that the families of victims of 9-11, and the nightclub in Bali, or the countless embassy bombings, the US Cole bombing, etc etc etc etc agree its wrong to kill for no reason. I'm sure the women and children that Saddam used as human shields during the Gulf War probably wondered why they were being killed.

So, unless you think that Saddam or Al Quaeda had excellent reasons for killing all these people, I'm sure you are against them and at least agree that it would be a good idea to pursue some type of action against them.

Idealism is great. I wish the world was a perfect place. But we also have to be realistic sometimes.

I support peace as well. I'm sure all the people here would love to hear that Saddam decided to take exile and the war was over. But ya know what's more important to me than that. My 5 year old daughter, my 4 month old twins and their safety and what type of world they will grow up in.

I don't want to live in Israel. I don't want bombs going off at the corner drugstore every couple days. I don't want planes hitting the Hancock building. If the gov'ts of these countries won't put an end to this way of life, if they will continue to ignore or even support this way of life. Than there is going to be a price to be paid and despite my preference for peace, I will support us (US) taking into our own hands.

Schoolie....very well thought out post.....

Now that's more like it.....:)

Finally some intelligent discussion.

I will be away fo a couple of days, but I look forward to making a reply when I come back.


Jimbo,

You need to check your facts.
My whole point was Iraq doesn't equal Al Queda.

What do you all make of this?

Anti-War propaganda?

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0915-04.htm

http://www.thedailyenron.com/documen...5550-68379.asp

http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/07.22C.halli.probe.htm

Hey FCAlive, where do you fish?

Scotch,

Is that a friendly where do you fish?


I agree, support our troops.

My problem is not with the troops. They are doing their job in the bravest manner possible.

Disagreement with the administration should not be confused with lack of support for our soldiers. Otherwise, nobody could disagree during wartime.

he hasnt talked about fishing
 

since coming on here i feel he has been thrown off every other site for being a knucklehead and ended up here!! my opinion!! no more replys to you fc!! from me!!

Re: he hasnt talked about fishing
 

Nope, never posted politcal comments on another site before.

Re: Re: he hasnt talked about fishing
 

So we're just luck here, right :D ? I think this discussion isn't bad (it ain't good either) I just don't agree with 80% of what you are saying FC...

fc
 

how are you ill talk anything you want that is not political but since coming here you just like stiring up stuff pepole are feeling it today after seeing that murderous regime executing are guys on public tv please take your trader ass somewhere else and speak your garbage to someone who wants to listen to you!! and if i keep replying to you im doing what you want so i wont reply to you no more!!

We have no business being in Iraq.
Rooting out terrorism cannot be used as a blank check for aggression.

If we weren't attacking them, they wouldn't be shooting at us.

What do you expect them to do?

In the US / Iraq relation, who has been the aggressor?