You see Fly Rod, I complain because the more they get, the less I have to spend on my kids. At my company, if I reward myself with a fat pension, you (the customer) has the choice to buy my product, or get it somewhere cheaper if you want. You have that choice. Public unions give themselves whatever they want, and then just take it from the rest of us with force of law. It's not nearly the same thing as what happens in the private sector, it's not nearly fair, and it's about to implode.

Again, take the cowardly way out, avoid answering a tough but fair question, and insult the person asking the question. I don't get why someone like you reads this forum, if all you do is insult people instead of offering thoughtful responses to probing questions.

In what dictionary? Is there a special one for actuaries that the rest of us are not aware of? Define "creating wealth" and then explain why a stimulus package was necessary and what purpose the National Science Foundation or DARPA serves if not to create wealth through research?

It's called economics 101. In the private sector, the transaction only takes place when both sides find it beneficial. Otherwise one patry or the other would walk away from the deal. If both parties are voluntarily taking part in the transaction, both must feel they are benefitting from it. Am I going too fast for you?

In the public sector, the teachers union makes its demand, and the cost gets forced upon homeowners. Homeowners can pay the cost, or have their house taken away in tax delinquency. There is no choice on the part of the homeowner. The homeowner can't say "the Catholic school only spends half as much per kid, and performs way better, so I'll give my property taxes to the Catholic school instead". If homeowners had that choice, which they should, public schools would be forced to shape up. Am I going too fast for you?

In one environment, the customer gets to freely choose whether or not to give his money to the person performing the service. In the other environment, the person providing the service forcibly takes the money away from the customer, without asking his permission. Those two things are different. Am I going too fast for you?

"explain why a stimulus package was necessary"

It wasn't necessary. Nor was it stimulative.

"National Science Foundation or DARPA serves if not to create wealth through research?"

If that research was obviously financially promising, someone in the private scetor would be funding it. If an idea needs government subsidy, that means the free market decided that the idea wouldn't be lucrative.

Obviously, some things are more important that creating wealth, like public safety. But in my opinion, those who receive public funds should not receive benefits that dwarf anything available to those who pay for those programs. I guess you disagree. In that case, will you pay my family's share of the shortfall? Because I do not recognize the right of teachers to reward themselves with these insane compensation levels.

right, I can see how funding a study on "stressed-out teens" can be construed as "wealth creation" :rotf2:

from the NSF website
Stressed Out: Teens and Adults Respond Differently

UCLA neuroscientist Adriana Galván studies the impact of normal, everyday stress and associated stress hormones on adolescents' brain function and decision making

Adriana Galván explores how daily stress and associated stress hormones impact decision making.
September 3, 2010

Stress can be compared with the pressure that a sculptor places on a piece of marble: the right pressure and it becomes a masterpiece, but too much pressure and the marble breaks into pieces.

The right amount of stress helps us to meet our goals and do good work. Too much stress can produce serious damage to the heart, the vascular system and the immune system, and it also causes changes in some areas of the brain.

With support from the National Science Foundation (NSF), Adriana Galván, a neuroscientist at the University of California, Los Angeles (UCLA), is studying the effect of stress on brain function in adolescents and adults.

Nothing to see here folks.

If the needs of others have raised all of your fees, created some new ones, increased your taxes, jacked up your health care costs, doubled your utilities (and added more fees), clearly you are living beyond your means.

What? You got laid off? Had to start at 35% less than what you made before? Clearly you are living beyond your means.

Need to cut back your expenses? No, you just go out and get a job that pays better. What? No jobs? Well, pick up a second. Clearly, you are living beyond your means.

:rotf2:

Aye carumba. I just got my W2s. It has taken me 8 years to get to within 85% of the dollar figure (forget about inflation) I made in 2002. In those intervening 8 years I've constantly had to cut to live within my means yet I have paid more and more so others did not need to worry about their means because their means are not negotiable.

And I won't pick specifically on the public sector unions - a lot of them DO bust their a$$es. But the politicians elected have been doing a pees poor job of living within their means.

We as a nation are doing an awful job of living within our means, yet we continue to borrow and spend more and more, well beyond our means.

Hmmm. Wonder where this leads ?

speaking Chinese :uhuh: Rosetta Stone anyone?

Having/not having kids is a personal choice that all should consider before putting themselves in that position for the next 18-23 years.

Why exactly should a cop/teacher/whatever have to suffer for other people's decisions?

No they're not.

Not a member of a union, nor is my better half.

26...we've redefined "childhood" to age 26 now and 27 in Indiana I think....

"Nothing to see here folks."

Yes there is somehitng to see, because somehow likwid and chesepeake Bill don't get it.

"I've constantly had to cut to live within my means yet I have paid more and more so others did not need to worry about their means because their means are not negotiable. "

Very well said. The crazy part is, these union members will tell you of the awful sacrifices they've made to keep spending where it is.

"And I won't pick specifically on the public sector unions - a lot of them DO bust their a$$es."

I agree many work hard. But the fact is, those unions have made demands on the public they serve, which are unreasonable. Look at how underfunded those benefit plans are...doesn't that prove that the promises made were stupid?

Union benefits are a much bigger debt item than politician salaries.

You're clueless, you just don't get it.

The cop/teacher makes demands that bankrupt most states in the country, and you're saying the cop and teacher are suffering?

What "suffering"? I'm asking the cop and the teacher to live with the same benefits available to those that pay taxes. Why is that "suffering"? I sure don't feel like I'm suffering with my 401(k), so why is it inhuman to ask people who work for me, to live with the same benefits? Why are they special?

Never mind, I know you won't try to answer, you never do...

[QUOTE=Jim in CT;Union benefits are a much bigger debt item than politician salaries.[/QUOTE]

union benefits were "purchased" through and as political graft....the union members represent an organized, easily mobilized voting block and politicians have paid for that support at election time using public money and promises in the form of contracts, perks and pensions promises for a very long time...we are paying their salaries with borrowed money, we borrowed a fortune to "save" their jobs and creat work with the stimulus(BORROWED MONEY) and their pensions unfunded are paid with borrowed money....PLUS INTEREST!!!!! WOW:wall:

I think they'll get a nice "injection" with unspent stimulus funds prior to the next election

I, personally, don't get why somebody comes to a Fishing Website just to argue Politics. But, To each his Own

that was good! :rotf2:

It's the political discussion forum, correct?

Its www.Striped-bass.com.....correct

I agree, but kids change your outlook and what you pay. What I pay monthly for daycare would pay 99% of most peoples mortgage. Tack on increased taxes, when does it become financially not worth it for me or my wife to work? You may think Im kidding, but my wife and I have had this discussion many, many times. I have done hypothetical calculations with the main variable - our taxes. Do we want to have a country where prosperous people cant afford to work? I dont expect anyone to pay a dime for my kids, but news flash most of the people who you side with politically DO.


Why should a teacher or cop suffer from others decisions? Kind of silly question, no? I suffer from my boss's decisions. I suffer from my coworkers decisions. I can leave at any time. A teacher or cop should suffer OR benefit from others decisions too. There needs to be fiscal responsibility and we - you and me, are the bosses, we pay the bills. If teachers or cops dont like the benefits or pay, they can pursue other careers. the market should be defining wages and benefits.

Dad, if it makes it more palatable to you, I'll re-phrase.

The last time I owned a fishing boat was a 20 foot Key West center console which I loved. Paired with an E-tec 130. One day my son and I were casting eels with custom rods made by J&B tackle in Niantic, matched with spinning reels and 14 pound braid, along Fishers Island, NY. I noticed my neighbor who is a public schoolteacher, married to another pubilc schoolteacher, and he is in a 27 foot grady white center console.

My boy asked me why we couldn't afford a boat that sweet, and I said "well son, since I'm not in a public union, I have to put $15k a year into my 401(k). If I had a pension instead, my financial security in retirement would be everybody else's problem except my own, and in that case, we could put that money towards our dream boat." At this time, we were near Isabella beach at high tide, and the fishing was picking up.

He asked me "why don't you have a pension?" as he landed a nice schoolie.

As I removed the size 5/0 Gamagatsu circle hook, I said "because they are too expensive to ask our customers to pay for". As the tide slackened, we moved to the Race and trolled umbrella rigs with wire line. We let out 300 feet of wire to get below the cocktail blues that were down to 10 feet or so.

So he said "so why do teachers get pensions then. I'm only 4 years old, but even I see that it doesn't seem fair".

On the way in, we stopped at the warm water discharge at Millstone Power Plant and hooked up with some albies. "Son, I said, you're right, it's not fair, and not only that, it is bankrupting our entire country. When you get a paper route in 5 years, they'll put you in the 75% income tax bracket to pay for all this spending".

While cleaning the boat afterwards with Colinite boat cleaner (which works great when paired with Colinite wax), he said "gee Dad, it seems selfish for public unionized employees to place such a significant tax burden on the public that they claim to serve. If we can all live with 401(k)'s, why can't they?"

We grilled the stripers with lemon, garlic, onions, and pepper.

Other than the spot burning, is that framed better?

that was really good! :rotf2:

"I'm 4 years old and even I can understand that" heh...heh

You post the stats that say that the retirement benefits alone are underfunded by $8,333 per person.

I ask if that doesn't suggest that the current benefits are too rich.

For responses, I get...

"why didn't you go into teaching"

"what do you care what someone else gets"

"seems like you're just jealous" (which I guess I am)

I just want someone to tell me why it's not unfair and reckless...

You forgot two questions...
How many town meetings have you gone to to get answers to why there is a 4% increase this year?
And I'm still waiting to hear what the 4% increase was for and by how many students there are this year compared to last year?

Just out of curiosity, does your company give you a cost of living pay increase every year? Most do.

And your story, while cute, leaves alot open.
How long did they save for the boat?
Do you know exactly how much were paid per year?
Do you know if any family members died and left them some money?
Do they play the market?
Does one of them have a trust fund?

Judging others by material posessions is very shallow of you.

Most do? Really. I guess you have not heard of the great economic downturn that taken place the last few years? Have you seen the unemplyment rates? Seen the decline in personal incomes?
Most companies are slashing expenses, many have stopped 401k match, stopped bonuses. Towns should too, do you get it now?

Pssst, there are companies that are excelling right now! I know, crazytalk. But its happening.

Most?
Have any evidence to back this up? Or is it just speculation based on media hoodoo?

in your little story about joebob you didn't provide many specifics about his particular situation and you didn't seem to think twice about kicking the crap out of him and calling him a hypocrit :uhuh::)

"Why hasn't joe bob looked for a better job?
Why hasn't joe bob bettered himself (whether it be via schooling or some other means) in that 6 years to either get paid more or find a better job
Maybe he should stop complaining, stand up, and do something for himself for once instead of complaining about others?

"

yikes...maybe joebob has no legs, no trust fund, no inheritance, no windfall from the lottery or stock market, likes what he's doing and just wants to work hard and be left alone?

hey he wanted to go with the general story of the guy making 50k getting priced out of his neighborhood.

I also have to ask Jim in CT, why would someone tell their son that story? That someone else gets more than he does to their son? Do you hate your neighbor that much? Are you that jealous?

Why couldn't you teach a life lesson? That they work hard and saved up for the boat instead of teaching a distrust of teachers due to what they have. That they get a pension and they're "special".

Sure you could say its a lesson, but certainly not a positive one.

But hey, you wanna raise your kids that way, thats your right.

Can't you please answer my question that started this thread? I keep answering all your questions, you keep avoiding all of mine...

Is that unfair of me? I answer all your questions, and I'm asking you to answer one of mine. Too much to ask?

Likwid, I'm very comfortable. That doesn't mean that what public unionized employees are doing is right. Most folks aren't as lucky as me.

Dodging my simple question is very cowardly of you.

Very classy!

Wrong again. If I want to teach my kid about the rewards of hard work, the very last place on earth I'll point to is a teachers union. Here's why. In a teacher's union, every teacher with the same experience, from the best teacher to the worst teacher, is paid exactly the same. There is ZERO financial incentive to excel. Zip. Zilch. Nada. Bupkus.

That philosophy worked great in the USSR, Cuba, and the auto unions...it gusrantees complacency and mediocrity.

In the private sector, hard working talented employees get rewarded. People who just show up and coast, get left behind.

In a teachers union,the worst teacher and the best teacher get paid identically. If someone here wants to explain the logic behind that, I'm all ears...

Again, you insult me instead of simply answering the question...