Welcome to the land of tournaments.

A Question for Big Dave.. How does the Dept. of Marine Fisheries, track the recreational numbers, and how accurate are they?

How many recreational fishermen have kept track of their numbers and reported them to the state, independent of any poll taking?

I have participated once, in that poll, when a volunteer approached me in my camper, years ago. I listened in awe, as he was given artificial numbers from a couple of others, having a little fun with the guy. It was obvious, with the choked laughter he was getting BS'd, he was even smiling, as he was writing. And, in the several years since, I have not seen anyone else out polling, where and when I fish.

I have been told, by a person from the Dept., that those numbers, at best, are a guess, based on a small percentage, that are polled.
At least the comms. have weigh slips.

[QUOTE=JohnR].

Correct me if I'm wrong but the state allocations are based on perceived pressure as there are not landing receipts from every angler on every trip to give hard numbers. So they use their estimates from their dosckside / shoreside studies and guestimate a total catch and compare that to what they feel the biomass can manage and be sustainable. QUOTE]


We call this Vodoo math.Every yr.in Vodoo math they are able to minipulate the numbers in order to give us the the Maximun sustainable yield.In nj we where able to go back to 2 fish because of a .01 percent difference in Vodoo math.Although i see more bigger fish today i think the past few yrs the fisherey has gotten worse.Its hard to support a tourney that promotes a 2 per week kill totals.

Sorry, I love tourneys and The pins could mean something to someone when I'm long gone (probably not but u never know)but at 2 per week for 16 weeks its tough.on the individual side I think someone could easily do 32-20 lbers as a average.Thats 640lbs.That could be a conservitive amount.take a small number in a NE tournament like 100 anglers,say they average 500 lbs.Thats just the individual end.when u add in clubs an do the math across it adds up quick.Will it make a difference in the 9 million taken in Mass according to the vodoo math.Who can say for sure.Its just not the type of thing I feel I should be supporting.The downside is not a option for me striper fishing is my life.I agree the tournament needs a numbers limit, DZ suggested 3 for the clubs.U could do the same for the individual i think That limits the lottery.It is for the grand prize part a lottery anyways.Perhaps top 5 would'nt hurt either clubs an individual..I thought the old tourney had some kinda numbers limit for the clubs like top 10.??
I think ball type lottery thing for inividual would be most fair.Like the NBA Draft lottery #1 angler gets 10 balls an #2 gets 9 an so on.Some simple minds are thinkin what about ties an so on.U don't have to use balls. It can be done with a computer to work out the finer calculations of a multiple entries format.More than just weigh one in over 35 lbs an get a chance to win.This method rewards the top angler with the best chance.If I weigh in 8- 30's why should someone who gets one have the same chance.thats the way it is as far as I see it.
They more than likely won't make any changes this yr.Guess I will have to wait till next yr

Bruce I respect you but no one, not you, JohnR or anyone else is going to stop me from saying what I want when I want especially if someone tries to question my integrity. If the board doesn't like it it too bad for you all but I will not back down from something like that.

Someone questioning that will be responded to, plain and simple. Unlike many others here I do not see things in gray but black and white and will not cudgel and cojole others with happy feelings so we can all "just get along" therefore no apologies to anyone, I stand where I stand, you all can see it with no illusions.

I have been at this way too long and have seen many and been involved in many things related to Striped Bass, thier stock levels and the effect some assume this Tournament would have on the fishery.
People that have only been in the game for five or ten years have no idea of the real scope of this fishery, who it affects and what effects it.

Making that assumption on there part is akin to Hillary Clinton moving to New York and running for senate, she has no real basis, no deep connection to the real issues. I am in it, I still belive in it I have no qualms about it. And I will not tolerate proposed innuendo and questioning of my integrity. I do not care who likes or dislikes me, I sleep well every night.

$ :yak:

I'm glad you replied Steve. I don't blame you one bit for defending yourself when he made it personal by questioning your integrity. I would have done the same thing but as a moderator I would have left the namecalling out , that is all.So that's why I said something. I could see it coming when I read it :hidin:

Back to the discussion of irresponsibility now.............

I guess we'll wait and see how it all turns out this year. I doubt that many people will be weighing in 2 fish per week and I also wonder if OTW is planning to make public the total amounts of fish entered at the end.
After reading some of the replies here, I come to the conclusion that some of you need to read the rules as to how the prizes are awarded.

Look, I love stripers as much as anyone, but I don't get this sacred cow mindset. Some people have no problems killing bluefish even if they don't keep them. Some people keep their limit of fluke, flounder, tautog, scup, sea bass, cod, pollock or haddock (if they lucky enough to catch a legal one) every time they head out. How many people will head out in a month or so and fill a couple of totes with mackerel to freeze and use as bait the rest of the season? Not a single one of the fisheries I listed is as healthy, numbers wise, as the bass fishery. Yet we wring our hands over a tournament that was conceived for the right reasons, because it'll result in dead bass. Post a picture of a 10# fluke on the internet, or an 8# tautog, and everyone goes "wow, nice fish". Not a single person ever says, "shame on you for keeping it, you should have released it". Post a picture of a 40# bass, and dollars to donuts some yahoo is going to criticize you for not releasing it. Yet, I'd venture to say there are tons more 40 bass out there than there are 10# fluke, and much more damage is being done to the fishery by killing 10# fluke. Fluke and tautog were put here to be killed and eaten, in a lot of your minds. Stripers, I guess, were put here to be worshipped.

If you practice catch and release with keeper groundfish, more power to you, and your opinions here have the same merit. If you don't, well, maybe a look in the mirror is in order before you criticize OTW and their staffers for hosting what some of you think is a striper Holocaust.

Agreed....format needs some re-thinking

This is just me, but i say let OTW water run the tourney the way they want to this year. Hopefully, they take note that so many people out there are concerned with bass mortality and will change the format next year. To assume that we on this board have the pull to change what they do is not reality. It will take many many many people sending them letters and e-mails to get them to budge. This thread is a good basis for them to go by, but this thread will probably not be their bible when or if they make the new rules. What will be the decision maker for them in the end is how much $ goes into their coffers.. so if you dont agree, dont join. If you agree with them, then sign up. If you disagree with everything OTW does, then cancel your subscription. Personally, i am not going to enter- i dont want to kill anymore fish with the hopes of winning somethign for it. If i kill a fish it will be for a dinner party.

one more thing- a percentage of people that would kill a bass to win this tourney would have killed the fish anyway for food or for the taxidermist.

Do we really want to hope they can learn from their mistakes?

I am still planning on coming down to fish with you and see the studio.

Steve - I respect your opinion even when I don't agree with it. How's that :tooth: ?

I just think this tourney could be more conservation minded than it is as it stands now. If this year's rules are cast in concrete then perhaps they could have been discussed prior in a more open format (I can't see any reason why they would not have been discussed before and I believe OTW took it seriously when they did).

If S-B fields a team, do we impose our own little extra limit? Be it a minimum size? Or lmiting fish weighed in over the course of the tourney? Will that put a disadvantage on our people as they enter?

Thanks,

John

Sort of like running a campaign and pledging not to take soft money :hee:

-spence

Yumpin Yee Zuss :conf:

More good info. pros and cons.... I`m more confused then when I started here but this has been great discussion!

I hope to be healthier to fish later this season and I sure could use any of the prizes especially a chance at the larger ones which I would sell. I am too friggen fickle but value some of these lifetime salt fishers opinions very much.

We do not have a choice about LETTING THEM RUN IT THE WAY THEY WANT at this point and hopefully they will change the format next time around if they decide to stay in it.

If I do sign up it will be as an individual and I`ll only register big bass if I`m fortunate enough to catch one.

And by the way I think OTW is a great magazine. :kewl:

:scatter: Mike

Is'nt there a song that goes "It's my party and I'll play if I want to...

It is their tournament and as most things in this world work just follow the money. If it does what they want this year they won't change it, if it does'nt they will end or adjust it. Each of us is free to vote with our dollars by entering or not.

I do have a question: Was there an entry fee for the Schaefer?

I'm not entering for a number of reasons, because living in VT its too far for me to have good odds, there is no surf division and I have some other things I don't like about the rules.

Then again I don't buy lottery tickets either and Hopefully I'll catch a 80# fish this year because I did'nt enter.:jump:

No there was no entry fee for schaefer but you had to be registered by a certain point in the year and yes of course clubs can and could create there own set of "rules within the rules" for their participation.

Schaefer spent an untold amount of dough putting it on and had a staff with a director just to run it. It got to be too much for them. Back then the public sentement towards drinking, beer advertising and such was much more favorable and they were making money hand over fist.

Well said Mike P. This is the point I was trying to make with my first post on this subject.!

Sure they kill xteen million pounds a year and this tourney will not change that significantly. Sure people take ground fish and mackeral and blues etc. Are you supposed to throw in the towel cause its an uphill battle?

The thing that will make a difference is an accumulation of choices over their fishing years by many people.

If you simply look at the reality of the poundage taken per state and compare the pounds in this tourney , you may say what difference does it make. However , if you can step back and have a vision ( guys like Bob Pond had a vision , not a magic wand) then you can see that discussing the conservation issues is good to make people aware , the more people are aware , the better for the fishery.

Opposing this tourney and any tourney that has not taken conservation into consideration when they write their rules and determine the format of these events is part of acting on that vision. One small step at a time , and eventually you have walked a mile.


There is no one thing anyone can do to suddenly cut the Xteen million pound number in half . What we can do is one person at a time , make the right decision; one kid at a time , teach them conservation ; and one tournament at a time , oppose thoughtless rules and fish killing formats.

It all adds up and you can see that if you have a vision.

Act to make that vision a reality by making the right choices , on small matters. Over your carreer as a fisherman and over the carreers of people with whom you share the vision , it will add up.

Steve ur integrity will never be in question with me.There can be no doubt on the matter.Ur one of the most knowledgable well spoken guests to the site. A bonus for sure.But.(don't u just love that word)
When u blow a gasket it's funny.:tm:
When I read THE post i was like "oh boy this is gonna be good"
an then u replied an I was :rotf2:
Keep up the good work.:hihi:

Take your ball and go home if you don't like how the other kids play...

My vision is to fish the tournament accordingly.....with good conservation practices and thoughtfulness in regards to what fish I choose to keep and how many fish I choose to keep! Many folks I am positive will fish it the same and the folks who choose to abuse the fisheries and take more than they need....well they are not going to change regardless of the situation! You are all making good points and obviously we all share the same passion for conservation of the striped bass and the same concerns in regards to the same. The cullers, the poachers who take more than they are allowed by law and the folks who practice poor catch and release and conservation practices will always be the problem. Sure the rules may need tweaking...but given time I am sure OTW will do just that. Police the way in which you fish it and hope others do the same for now......no laws have been broken and all is in bounds and really all we are worried about are those who abuse it......and as long as they adhere to the 2 fish per week rule I don't think it is all that bad......just the accrued points system that needs refinement. You are after all allowed 2 fish a day in Mass........you guys don't seem to be doing nearly as much screaming about that! Maybe you should!:uhuh:

Thanks, that is what I guessed

Yeah, your right about that. The current population is much higher than it was back then!

Fishing for bass is and has been a competitive event for some time! All the clubs have a club derby to my knowledge...MSBA, RISSA, MBBA, Plum Island to name a few.......all require fish be weighed and measured on certified scales....no catch and release there! How many of you nay sayers fish your club derbies? Explain to me the difference one from the other?

From the OTW website:


Striper Cup Tournament T-Shirt Produced by The Black Dog

• 2006 Commemorative Striper Cup Pin

• Invitation to the Striper Festival at the end of the contest

• The chance to win a 2006 Grady White 180 Center Console!


INDIVIDUALS:

• ALL participants in attendance at the Striper Festival will be eligible to win a 2006 Grady White 180 Center Console.
The winner will be drawn during the Striper Festival, the invitation-only party at the Harpoon Brewery in October. Five keys will be drawn and given at random to attendees of the “Striper Festival.”


Black Nickel Pin Bronze Pin

Silver Pin Gold Pin

• Catch qualifying fish to enter 30-, 40-, 50- & 60-Pounder Striper Clubs. These accomplishments will be recorded, and the anglers' names will be listed in OTW and on our Web site. Each fisherman entering a fish into a club will receive a Harpoon Pounder Club pin, signifying his accomplishment.

• Angler Of The Year
Trophy will be awarded to the angler who accrues the most points over the season in both the boat and shore divisions.

• Striper Of The Year Award
Trophy will go to the largest striper weighed in during the tourney.

• Monthly Winners (5) -The angler with the largest striper each month will be eligible to win the Grand Prize 4x4.

• Weekly Winners (20)
-Weekly Boat Angler Winners (Largest fish of the week)
Rod and Reel Combos
-Weekly Surf Angler Winners (Largest fish of the week)
Rod and Reel Combos

• Junior Anglers
-Weekly winners (20) receive OTW prize packs with subscription
-Monthly Winners (5) receive rod & reel combos
-Monthly Winners (5) eligible for the fully outfitted kayak

CLUBS:

• The Striper Cup
The club that accrues the most points over the course of the tournament will get to drink from the “Striper Cup” for one year. The winning club must present the trophy to the following year’s winner.
• State Winners
Trophies will be awarded by state to the club that has accrued the most points in each state (NY,CT,RI,MA,NH


Am I missing something. As I read the prize description, everyone who enters the torney has a chance to win the Grady. It is not based on points or size of fish, you just have to show up to the "striperfest" (I bet they would get better attendance if they called it the "stripperfest" ). In order to win the 4x4 you must be one of the largest striper of the month winners, a total of five. The only area points come into play is angler of the year/club of the year and state.

Dont get me wrong, I do not want people to take 2 small fish a week. Based on history, I only catch 3-4 fish a year that would qualify for a pin or prize. I have no desire to accrue points and win a trophy for bragging rights or any other reason. Lets hope the clubs/individuals will realize the impact of taking so many small fish and decide not participate.

Cumulative year-long poundage. Whichever club kills the most fish wins.
DZ made a great suggestion in having clubs only submit the top 7 or 5 or 3 fish, that way anything not meeting the mark doesnt need to be killed.
I would really like to fish this tournament, but have reservations with the club fish kill, and the early ending time frame
Actually, re-reading the rules, I'll probly just enter as an individual. I interested in seeing what others "sharpies" are actually catching in the surf

OOpps
I meant to say "participate in that particular part of the tourney" I am going to sign up and look to catch a big fat monster bass.

The big difference here is the cumulative poundage format. It encourages large quantities of fish be killed to make points.

I got no problem with tournaments and think they are fun. I got no problem with taking fish home to eat. I got a problem with killing fish to accumulate points in a tourney. The format of this tourney is what I'm protesting , not the tourney concept.

I'm really surprised at the number of posts that say something to the affect that ...."well we already do this wrong and that wrong. Why get upset about doing this tourney wrong?"

Its like saying...."I already cheated on my wife last year. I did it again last Christmas , what's wrong with cheating on her again tomorrow?" Just ask your wife if she goes for that logic?? :)

John,
Not quite right. Striped bass is managed on a coastwide basis, i.e. there is no allocation of the quota to any individual state. ASMFC sets the maximum creel limit, all states have the option to use a more restrictive limit. But your main point is correct, in that effort is factored into the equasion and if all fishermen went out and killed two fish a day, it would have a severe detrimental impact on the fishery.

Actually - I reread my post and it was a little wishy-washy but correct where it talks about how the states managed quotas before Ammendment 6 hence the "couple years ago". This is what allowed Mass to have a 1/day with a a bonus period so to speak with a time for 2/day under the old rules - they chose not to implement it but they could have... Also allowed other states to implement slot limits. All were based on allowable numbers from ASMFC with the state to decide how to achieve under that quota.

OK Saltheart, I guess you've convinced me to sign up as an individual then. That way none ,if any, of the fish I weigh in will go to that club poundage most people are complaining about. I can't see myself keeping more than the usual amount of fish this year anyway. I'm with bigfish:eek5: did I just say that? :hidin:

Cranium, nope, you didn't miss anything, that's how it's written.

In the schaefer clubs were allowed to enter only the ten top fish caught for each eligible species ( Bass, Bluefish, Cod and Weakfish, which were on the list, then off, then on again) per month. Therefore, the fish had to be big in order to garner the points and surf fish were worth two points as opposed to boat fish at one point. 90% of the Schaefer weigh stations were fish markets. As most back then sold thier catch. Not only "commercial" rod and reelers but Mom and Pop and the uncle Bob and whoever caught fish. A very small majority didn't.

I write for OTW, I am not in thier employ and had no input nor would I try to force my views upon them. I know how I will fish. I will not be entering every over 34 inch fish I catch. If I happen to take a big one, ie way over 30 lbs, it's in. If I don't, no biggie. I catch many fish each year, a reasonable guess would be over a thousand or more, it ain't hard to catch a hundred in a day in some of the places I and some friends fish, just ask Stiff tip.

In converstion with Bob Pond many years ago at the Worcester Show and several occasions after that, I asked him what he thought was the biggest threat to bass and he answered "Acid rain, chemical run-off of fertilizers in Chesapeake, pollution in the Hudson". He went on to explain how his number one concern, acid rain, was not allowing the fertilized eggs to develop. That was the basic premise of his Stripers Unlimited work. In that he was ahead of his time and finally like the return of the Osprey to the Chesapeake watershed, the bass rebounded also, due to the reduction of acid rain and chemical run-off. He never mentioned tournaments to me and I spoke with him at length many many times. One has only to research the year with low acid rain occurences in April in the Chesapeake and it's correlation to high YOY indexes to see the link.

Mr. Saltheart, your reference to Bob Pond is based on conjecture and not fact and he himself would tell you that for Bob Pond is an honest man who plainly stated fact and did not bend the facts as they came to light to further his purpose. He was right on his theory, and for that we shall always be grateful.

Oh yeah, I forgot. The fecundity of the Striped Bass is almost unparrelled in the icthyological world. Given the right conditions the bass could expect indices of recruitment of it's stocks that dwarf other species. It is a known fact that although a frty pound cow may carry millions of eggs, the older she gets the viability of those same eggs is questionable as opposed to younger and smaller female bass in the mid teen weight classes whose eggs, though less in volume are much more viable and less subject to non-developement.

First time weighing in on this thread. So here goes;

1. I will enter and fish for S-B, if it enters as a club.

2. I will weigh in fish ONLY if they meet the 30, 40, 50 lb. slots, qualifying for pins, and maybe weekly/monthly prize. If I should be so lucky to catch and weigh in a fish in a particular slot, I do not intend to weigh another for that slot, but will rather target another, as yet unattained slot.

3. I will go to the festival in the hope that I can have a shot at a prize, and more importantly, see all you jamokes.

I disagree with a number of things stated in this thread so far. Among them, the high mortality rate of released fish (what the hell are they doing to them????) and the statement that someone without 10 to 15 years of this addiction can't grasp thaeoverall big picture. Forums like this, books, and insights from folks like Capesams and Flap can give great insight into the history, for those who care to read and think. (hell I've learned a great deal from your musings, Steve)

Have I gotten snobby over striper fishing? Hell yes. We who are concerned over a 'Kill' should be happy that the great majority of the yacht club set and surf/boat fishermen couldn't put 2 keepers in their boat on a weekly basis if their life depended on it. And how many googans do you go by on an average outing???? I don't want to be seen as a fishing snob, nor as being unaware of the conservation issues we have seen in the past. It's a fishing thing.......

Don't put words in my mouth Flaptail. I don't appreciate it any more than you did when someone questioned your motives for your comments here.

I simply said ...."Bob Pond had a vision , not a magic wand". The fact that he had a vision is fact not conjecture and is based on many times I talked with him at his Atom factory which is about 10 minutes from my house. He had a vision and acted on it and did good for the fishery despite fighting an uphill battle.

Reread what I said and if there's anything there you don't like , lets discuss it but don't put words in my mouth.

Why didnt OTW follow that format, makes more sense.
Since there arent other species, they should seperate boat and surf into 2 fields.
I look forward to grabbing some pins :)

Krispy....that is exactly what I am trying to say....you should go ahead and fish the tourney, ignore the club poundage portion of the tourney and just weigh your best fish should the fish merit keeping in your view! Thats all I am doing....not entering as a club member because I do not like the "kill for points" portion of the rules. If I am blessed with a 30, 40, 50 or even a 60 pound fish (like that might happen:hihi: ) I will weigh it in accordingly. :cool:

Worlds are colliding, I agree w/ BigFish, Flaptail and Saltheart in the same thread :eek:

The boat guys have this locked up.. I don't think you realize how many big fish these guys take ***per day***. tons of 20's lots of 30#ers a few 40's and some of the hotshots take a 50+ once or so each season. A surf fish winning this thing is a long shot. And they DO cull out smaller fish, few take a fish less then 20# to the market. So they will weigh in the fish, then take it to market .

Removing myself from this thread, I am getting too much email about it.

I think many of you lost focus about what this thread was discussing, which isn’t hard because so many views have been expressed.

The initial question actually started on another thread – Should S-B.com field a team to compete for the new “Striper Cup”?

Most anglers would tend to agree that a tournament with prizes for individuals in various categories is not really anything to be concerned about. Many exist already.

The point of contention with the new Striper Cup is the point system for the club competition that has “no limit” on how many fish a club can enter.

Here is the statement from the OTW website:

(The members of the club with the most points tallied throughout the season will take the “Striper Cup” to display in their clubhouse for the year.)


To give you an example on how this contest might be run - read the following scenario:


Press Release 2006

Striper Cup Results

_________ Fishing Club Claims Striper Cup Bragging Rights

The_______ Club takes first place in the first annual Striper Cup with a total of 3653 points (awarded 1 point per pound). Minimum weight for entry was 15 pounds. 210 club members entered 189 striped bass over the course of the 20 week season. Of the 189 entered only 4 won awards in the ______Club’s own year long contest.

Club President -------- was proud of his members. “We made a big push for the trophy in August and September” he said. “Our members were encouraged to weigh-in all the eligible bass they could and they came through” - “they weren’t the biggest bass but we had enough weight to beat everyone else” he continued. “Now we can say we’re the best, at least for this year”.



So here’s the question each one of you should ask of yourself and your club:

Do you/we want to support a tournament like that?

I’m only one voice in my own club, but as President of it I would recommend “No” if it came up. But my club members might not see it the same way – in that case we would vote on it. But I’m fairly certain that a club like ours would not be willing to support the Striper Cup unless it changed its rules on club competition.

DZ