Actually they are not banned. Congress knew in 1934 that it had zero power to ban any arms, especially those that were of the type that constituted the ordinary military equipment.

The widely interpreted power to tax afforded a wider range of powers to restrict possession of full auto machine guns, sawed-off shotguns etc by requiring a Treasury tax stamp to be affixed to the weapon to prove a transfer tax had been paid. Hundreds of thousands of Title II arms are in private hands that run the gamut from little 9mm sub-machine guns to 20mm Vulcan MiniGuns.

I've read legal arguments on both sides; I haven't read a compelling one that argues for banning.

Emotional arguments are everywhere one turns but are rarely of any value when discussing important issues especially issues of legally enforced public policy. That goes triple when the policy being advocated demands either the ignoring or purposeful violation of fundamental, constitutionally enforced rights.

Why does someone need to have a Vulcan mini gun??
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Well, it just shows the absurdity of the entire argument. Yes, you can get a full auto weapon with the proper permitting and background checks, but the process has made them so expensive, difficult to get and worse -- traceable -- they rarely if ever are actually used in crimes.

I'd think it's a safe wager that if I was a violent criminal I'd much rather have some serious firepower at my disposal. Why aren't they used more? Perhaps because they are so hard to get.

-spence

Isn't it much easier for criminals to get "serious firepower" than it is for law abiders?

And does "absurdity of the entire argument" include the reason for the Second Ammendment in that "entire" argument? Or does the "entire" argument only include the "why do they need" the stuff for hunting, sport, and personal protection argument?

I'd like Reelin Rod to answer my question. Why does someone need to have a Vulcan Minigun???
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How else would you be able to defend against invading Vulcans? Oh, that's right, the Vulcans were pacifistic and wouldn't invade. Besides, they liked humans. Ok, so Reelin Rod may have to answer the question.

For the same reason guys need long distance fishing rods, fast retrieve reels, wetsuits for fishing or skishing, big boats, glass fish, etc. Cause they are cool, fun to play with and we can.
You are not trying to tell us it makes economic sense or is always socially acceptable to go fishing are you?

So lets be clear. People do not need weapons like this. They WANT THEM. There's a difference you know.
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The thing is.. I'm all for gun ownership. I just get very peeved when I listen to pro gun people rationalize their rights to gun ownership. We don't need to have any of these weapons.
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Weapons like what, a Minigun, semi-auto rifle, pistol, shotgun?

I'm not rationalizing anything.

I reject the entire "need" discussion out of hand (except for the aforementioned requirement of government to explain the premise constitutional support for any power claimed to impact the personal arms of the private citizen).

yes, I thought questioning someone's "wants and needs" had become passe' and even frowned upon.....

There's a good argument that a poor person actually needs a smart phone so that they have Internet access for looking for jobs, unemployment forms, etc. they can then not need a land line or a real computer.

I'm almost poor and that's what I have done at home.. No landline or hard wired Internet :hihi:
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But that's for another thread.
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Library!!!!!! We pay for it, they can go there and use it.
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We spend billions on libraries . They have Internet access. Wtf
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A little history might help
A foundation of American political thought during the Revolutionary period was the well justified concern about political corruption and governmental tyranny. Even the federalists, fending off their opponents who accused them of creating an oppressive regime, were careful to acknowledge the risks of tyranny. Against that backdrop, the framers saw the personal right to bear arms as a potential check against tyranny. Theodore Sedgwick of Massachusetts expressed this sentiment by declaring that it is "a chimerical idea to suppose that a country like this could ever be enslaved . . . Is it possible . . . that an army could be raised for the purpose of enslaving themselves or their brethren? or, if raised whether they could subdue a nation of freemen, who know how to prize liberty and who have arms in their hands?"[79][80] Noah Webster similarly argued:
Before a standing army can rule the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States.[80][81] George Mason argued the importance of the militia and right to bear arms by reminding his compatriots of England's efforts "to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them . . . by totally disusing and neglecting the militia." He also clarified that under prevailing practice the militia included all people, rich and poor. "Who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." Because all were members of the militia, all enjoyed the right to individually bear arms to serve therein.[80][82]
The framers thought the personal right to bear arms to be a paramount right by which other rights could be protected. Therefore, writing after the ratification of the Constitution, but before the election of the first Congress, James Monroe included "the right to keep and bear arms" in a list of basic "human rights", which he proposed to be added to the Constitution.[80][83]
Patrick Henry, in the Virginia ratification convention June 5, 1788, argued for the dual rights to arms and resistance to oppression:

Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined.[84]

While both Monroe and Adams supported ratification of the Constitution, its most influential framer was James Madison. In Federalist No. 46, he confidently contrasted the federal government of the United States to the European kingdoms, which he contemptuously described as "afraid to trust the people with arms." He assured his fellow citizens that they need never fear their government because of "the advantage of being armed...."[80][85]
By January of 1788, Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, Georgia and Connecticut ratified the Constitution without insisting upon amendments. Several specific amendments were proposed, but were not adopted at the time the Constitution was ratified. For example, the Pennsylvania convention debated fifteen amendments, one of which concerned the right of the people to be armed, another with the militia. The Massachusetts convention also ratified the Constitution with an attached list of proposed amendments. In the end, the ratification convention was so evenly divided between those for and against the Constitution that the federalists agreed to amendments to assure ratification. Samuel Adams proposed that the Constitution:
Be never construed to authorize Congress to infringe the just liberty of the press, or the rights of conscience; or to prevent the people of the United States, who are peaceable citizens, from keeping their own arms; or to raise standing armies, unless when necessary for the defence of the United States, or of some one or more of them; or to prevent the people from petitioning, in a peaceable and orderly manner, the federal legislature, for a redress of their grievances: or to subject the people to unreasonable searches and seizures.[86]Second Amendment to the United States Constitution - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I wonder how people ever got jobs before the internet and smart phones???? :)

Thanks for the history, I hadn't hear about the part with the king and all.

By this line of reasoning today then the general public should have unfettered access to all sorts of weaponry. I mean, if the real intent is to be able to repel the government, you're going to need a lot more firepower than an AR-15 with an extended magazine and folding stock.

-spence

Not if the law abider decides commit a crime :)

The point was that restricting access can indeed have a big impact on how those weapons are used, even without banning them.

The needs for sporting purposes are fairly narrow and can be met easily under current law. The needs for defense of liberty are quite broad and aren't likely to be met under current law...or are they?

Perhaps the defenders of freedom are already quite well armed.

-spence

Thanks for reminding me I could use a new oyster knife. I hate opening the things to be honest. The local stuff we get makes for good eating but the shells are a PITA.

-spence

I've noticed :)

Wow, what a zinger. :spam:

-spence

I'm just waiting for the next Million Man March..........................
I don't think our choice will be to burn down our neighborhoods.

I prefer they just charge up $6 lattes on their EBT cards at the Internet cafe like most other poor people.
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They checked the newspaper. Then technology came along and well.. You know.
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they can still check the newspaper....the point that you started was about wants and needs...you don't "need" a smart phone to find a job, particularly if many aspects of your life(housing, food, electric, school meals, healthcare, childcare ...etc...etc...) are already being subsidized or provided by the government....having a car might get you to a job as well, but if you can't afford the basics in life you should walk, ride a bike or take public transportation (can't believe I have to explain this)........you don't "need" a 6 dollar latte at an internet cafe, you use your EBT card to purchase that latte because you feel that you are entitled to a latte at someone else's expense or you've just become so accustomed to living at someone else's expense that it doesn't even occur to you that someone else is paying for your latte...might a smart phone provide you access to employment information?.....sure...but based on that argument we can justify/construe all sorts of wants as needs while forgetting priorities simply because the wants in lieu of needs will make our lives a little easier....which is very much a reason why we are where we are....:) on the other hand, you may not need many of these weapons mentioned(or maybe you might at some point) but if you can pay for them and can meet the guidelines for ownership, you are entitled to them under the Constitution(at least for now)....not sure smartphones and lattes were mentioned in the Constitution...probably just behind the times....

listening to the radio in the car last night I heard a very salient point made that while simple, explained an awful lot...."we cant even agree on right and wrong in this country anymore"

It was a Joke Scott...Geesh :rolleyes:

I got it....but it is symptomatic...wouldn't you say?
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/p...nvj2RwpsEDS7MN
metaphor for steak and lobster at the checkout line at Market Basket courtesy of EBT ....I'd refer back to the better living through foodstamps commercials that the government was targeting various groups with and the explosion of foodstamp recipients...it's prevalent right through the income stratus but breeding dependency begins with the most likely dependent(s)....good humor is always reality based :uhuh: but the reality of that joke isn't so funny really ...I'd argue that the growth of the entitlement culture and bureaucracy and dissolving of our social framework coupled with the inability to distinguish between right and wrong, needs and wants, rights and entitlements will have a much more significant impact on our future than the argument over which guns and ammo to ban....but the argument for the next few months will be about guns apparently...priorities:)

Why do you need to blow glass? Can't we get machine made stuff?
:rotf2:

My work isn't intended to kill people ;)
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Can I get one of these :hee:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-YBZ_GI_8Jo...s-weapon-3.jpg

Eben, who do you know that owns a Vulcan Minigun? I'm not sure that any of the violence that is being attributed to guns recently or for quite some time involved Vulcan Miniguns, if fact I couldn't find anything that suggest that they were being used to commit any crimes except in the Grand Theft Auto video game....if we ban Vulcan Miniguns and anything that resembles them and place many other bans and restrictions that we might dream up or that are currently being mentioned...please tell me how that would have stopped the Sandy Hook shooter, or any of the other shooters for that matter or future shooters?

Virginia Tech..... "Cho used two firearms during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22 semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun.[13] The shootings occurred in separate incidents, with the first at West Ambler Johnston Hall, during which Cho killed two pupils, and the second at Norris Hall, where the other 31 deaths, including that of Cho himself, as well as all the nonlethal injuries, occurred."


I'd just like to know exactly what is proposed as a solution and then how it is supposed to stop what occured to prompt the proposed action. There seems to be a disconnect. If you really believe that reducing the availability of certain guns and ammo and capacity is the solution then you really need to take it to it's logical conclusion and ban them all because there will still be sick people that will use whatever legal or illegal weapon of whatever capacity that is at their disposal to committ these crimes....

That's pretty scary looking....ban it. Interesting enough a quick google found a frighteningly large number of glass related murders .
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"A ban does not do anything to keep these things out of the hands of criminals, it merely limits the access to law-abiding citizens."

I disagree. If something is made illegal, not every single person who wishes they could get one illegally, would be able to get one. Obviously, I would never say that bans cannot be circumvented. But you seem to be saying the opposite, that bans cannot even reduce access to these weapons. I can't believe that's true.

"How did the "Gun Free Zone" work out at Sandy Hook?"

Not so well. Which is precisely why we need to have the conversation about whether or not things can be improved.

All I hear is extremes on this. Liberals seem to think that bans will put a stop to the deaths. You seem to be saying that bans won't stop a single person from getting their jands on what is banned.

I'm guessing the true answer is somewhere in between. If we get to that place, maybe (and maybe not) we can come up with policies that make our kids safer.

And you have me completely on the automatic weapons, I didn't think they were legal for civilians.

"What I have stated is that any ban is unacceptable "

Unacceptable to you. To me, if we can save a few lives and not trample the constitution, I say let's do it.

"When has a sweeping federal ban on citizens ever worked? "

Rarely. But your characterization of this as a "sweeping ban" is, in my opinion, inappropriate. 99% of Americans have zero interest in owning these things. Banning cars would be a "sweeping ban", because it would limit constitutional freedoms for just about everyone.

Jim if we taught gun safety in our schools It would save more lives then any ban would. Even if it saves one life it's worth a try....right?
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Sure we should preach gun safety. That will doubtlessly save lives. Did you really think I was going to disagree with that?

Another way to save lives, potentially, is to remove weapons of extraordinarily high lethality that serve no legitimate purpose other than to make insecure folks feel like Rambo for a little while.

Teaching gun safety could go a long way to reducing accidental gun deaths. But that's a different scenario than what happens when someone decides thet want to be remembered as a mass murderer, right?

In that scenario (random mass murder), it seems to me that the harder it is for the kook to get these weapons, the safer our children are. I'm stunned that there's almost universal resistance to that notion here.

Taken from the Net:

Maybe is a law abiding citizen nearby was armed a few of these could have been prevented.....................

Worst School Massacre in US history: Bath, Michigan School Massacre. 1927. Murder accomplished with explosives. 44 victims (equal to the Columbine and Virginia Tech massacres combined).

Worst Domestic Terrorist Attack in US History: Oklahoma City, Oklahoma, Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building bombing. 4/19/95. Murder accomplished with a rental truck full of fertilizer based explosives. 168 dead (including many children in an onsite day care).

Worst Foreign based Terrorist Attack in US History: September 11, 2001 attacks on NYC, PA, Pentagon. Murder accomplished with box cutters and commercial airliners. ~3,000 people dead.

Arson, Stabbing Rampage in Seoul South Korea : 10/20/2008. 6 people dead, 5from stabbing. 7 others wounded, 4 seriously. An angry man felt people “looked down on him.”

Anti-police stabbing spree in Shanghai, China: 7/2008. 6 Police Officers stabbed to death, 4 wounded. 28 year old man angry at police attacked a police station with a knife.

Akihabara Massacre, Chiyoda City, Tokyo, Japan: 6/8/2008. 7 people killed (3 struck by car, 4 by stabbing), many more injured. Man slammed into a crowd with his car, then jumped out and began stabbing people to death.

18 year old slashes 4 to death in Sitka, Alaska, US: 3/25/2008. 4 people killed. 18 year old (old enough to purchase a rifle over the counter) kills 4 people, related to him, with a 5 inch knife.

Stabbing Spree kills 2, Tsuchiura, Japan: 3/23/2008. 2 killed, 7 wounded. Man “just wanted to kill anyone.”

Stabbing spree wounds 41, 6 seriously in Berlin Train Station: 5/26/2006. 41 wounded, 6 seriously. Thankfully no one died in this attack, but not for lack of trying on the part of the drunk 16 year old.

4 killed in stabbing spree in London, UK: 9/2004. 4 killed, 2 wounded. Mentally ill man attacks mostly older people.

6 killed over Xbox dispute in Deltona, Florida, US: 8/6/2004. 6 killed. 4 men (all old enough to legally purchase firearms) bludgeon 6 people to death with baseball bats over purloined Xbox.

Daegu subway fire, Daegu, South Korea: 2/18/2003. 198 killed, 147 injured. A 56 year old unemployed taxi driver, dissatisfied with his medical treatment, sets fire to a crowded train.

Osaka School Massacre, Osaka Japan: 6/8/2001. 8 children dead, 13 other children and 2 teachers wounded. Committed by 37 year old former janitor armed with a kitchen knife.

The risistance is backed by fact. Banning might make you feel better but history shows that it will not work and I will argue might promote a black market that could result more deaths
Interestingly the NRA will teach gun safety in schools for free. Why are they not excepted with open arms?
Well......it's not really about saving kids life's .... Now is it ???
This isn't directed at you in particular ....
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