this is precious.....

suddenly a military operations expert....I think it was promised as a "withdrawal" which has turned into an "evacuation" since biden f*ck*d it up

Says the military expert who ignores that a withdrawal will turn into an evacuation . when the The Army the US spent 88 billion to train and equip for 20 years and was the primary security for the US , and we expected them to have our back . Yet Decided they could care less if the Taliban took over or what happens to them or their families just laid down ..

That would change thing quickly but again in a conservatives world facts get abandoned! and being outraged is just easier
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Obviously not everything that happens there is Bidens fault. But since Got Stripers says it was inevitable that things would get chaotic, can you explain why we would walk away from our military airfield which was specifically built to make it readily defendable, and rely solely on an impossible-to-defend civilian airpoirt, in a capital city?

"in a conservatives world facts get abandoned! "

In just about every one of your posts on this thread, you are saying that only conservatives are criticizing Biden for the way this unfolded. That's not close to true, he's getting serious criticism from democrats in congress and in the media. How's that for a fact that doesn't matter.

John R and TDF aren't rabid right wingers. It might make you feel better to try and convince yourself that nobody to the left of Sean Hannity is critical of Biden, but that's not the reality.

Try telling Seth Moulton that only partisan right wingers are critical. Moulton is a democratic congressman from Massachusetts, and he's a very progressive, liberal democrat at that. He also did 4 tours in Iraq. Here's his take on what unfolded...

"To say that today is anything short of a disaster would be dishonest. Worse, it was avoidable. "

https://moulton.house.gov/press-rele...in-afghanistan

another comment by Moulton...

"even if you completely agree with the Biden administration’s decision to withdraw, the way they have handled this has been a total f---ing disaster,”

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/arti...abul-trip.html

So go ahead and lie to yourself that all criticism is nothing but partisan politics. The blind partisan on this thread is you, refusing to concede that the politician you support, mismanaged this at all, when people from all sides are saying he did.

Yes Jim he did say he would get those out who wanted and then said we would stay till all who wanted got out.. and what changed ?

a suicide bomber killed 13 American service members and suddenly The right got cold feet .. outraged and they made it political a nano second after if happened .. screaming.Biden should resign he has blood on his hands ..

in that moment Conservatives made the decision that. Even with 6000 American and 100 thousand others Afghan men women and children rescued
13 American deaths were suddenly unacceptable

And Now since we have left they cry we left Americans behind it all. BS. More fake outrage ..

So here is my question how many marines were Republicans or Americans willing to sacrifice to go save these remaining 100 American who may or may not wanted to leave , and somehow couldn’t get to the airport for what ever reason , even though 6000 did!

1 more 13 more a thousand? The Truth is zero .. and now they will use these 100 American and 13 service members as martyrs in their mid terms it’s classic Republican play book ..

I’ve said it before Republicans love beating their chests and the war drum . Until the bill comes due unless deaths happen under a Republican. POTUS

Look up

The Tongo Tongo ambush or the Niger ambush occurred on 4 October 2017, when armed militants from the Islamic State in the Greater Sahara (ISGS) attacked Nigerien and killed 4 US soldiers outside the village

And this isn’t about Trump is about Republican responses to tragic events

You’ll find no Republican outrage
Except 1 person John McCain
By then a RINO

https://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...ttack-in-niger
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

"a suicide bomber killed 13 American service members and suddenly The right got cold feet "

No, not just the right. People in both parties are criticizing Biden.

"And Now since we have left they cry we left Americans behind it all. BS fake outrage"

You're saying, it's not valid to feel genuine outrage that we left American citizens, and allies who helped us, behind? There's no justifiable reason to be at all critical of that decision?

"now they will use these 100 American and 13 service members as martyrs in their mid terms"

That's obviously true. that's what's going to happen, just as the democrats used George Floyd as a martyr, or did that not happen?

I don't suspect this will be a huge issue in the midterms next year, but it might be. If it is, it won't help your side.

"Republicans love beating their chests and the war drum"

Yes you did say it, and it was demonstrably wrong both times you said it. Trump campaigned very specifically, on a promise to not get us involved in questionable wars, and republicans liked that promise. The George Bush wing of the GOP is very willing to go to war, as are PLENTY of democrats. Look up the Senate vote to invade Iraq, you know who voted in favor of that war? Senators Harry Reid, John Kerry, John Edwards, Hilary Clinton, Dianne Feinstein, Chuck Schumer...were they all Republicans?

There's a large number of people who have been connected to DC for decades, who feel entitled to get filthy rich off the American public, they all like to beat the war drum, and the come from both parties. Both.

Blind, rabid, thoughtless partisan talking points, it's all you have.

If you want to say the GOP will politicize this to help win elections, obviously you are correct, they will do that. If you're saying democrats don't do the same thing, you're wrong. Explain why the left makes a huge deal every time a black person is killed by a cop, but no one says anything about the dozens of blacks murdered every weekend in Chicago alone? Answer - black deaths at the hands of white cops, help democrats win elections. Blacks murdered by other blacks don't help democrats win elections. So which scenario gets all the attention, and which gets ignored?

I don’t recall you expressing outrage when Trump pulled our servicemen out, left all our Kurdish allies to fend for themselves and basically gave our bases to Russia. Oh wait that was under a Republican watch.:rude:

You need a lot of work on your comprehension.

Almost no one has a problem with the fact that we got out of Afghanistan. And you're right of course, Trump set that in motion.

But I don't think I've heard a single person say we should stay in Afghanistan indefinitely. What people are criticizing, is the manner in which this administration executed the withdrawal.

You said multiple times, that there was almost no chance our withdrawal wasn't going to become chaotic. That's MORE REASON to hang into Bagram air base, which was designed so that we could secure it, and in fact it was secured. That's MORE REASON to NOT rely on a civilian airport in a capital city. Then there's the broken promise, the report that we inexplicably gave a list of names of Americans and Afghan allies to the Taliban


Since you and WDMSO clearly feel there's no valid reason to criticize, I refer you again to the very harsh criticism lobbed by Massachusetts Congressman Seth Moulton, a progressive Democrats and veteran Marine who is absolutely scathing in his criticism of how badly this was bungled. What reason does a liberal democrat from Massachusetts, have to unfairly criticize Joe Biden?

Then there's the video of Biden repeatedly looking at his watch as the caskets were coming off the plane, the fact that most of the 13 families said all Biden did was talk about his own son when meeting with them, the fact that he announces to the world that he needs to be instructed which obedient network to call on for questions, his state department spokesman saying that getting stranded in Afghanistan isn't that different from what Americans go through every day who are stranded overseas (because losing your passport in Grand Cayman and getting delayed, is just like getting stranded behind Taliban lines in Afghanistan). It's a sh-t show. And his plummeting approval numbers confirm it.

You may continue with your denial-fest.

Good dodge
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

According to the Pentagon it was determined too risky to secure both airports without a significant troop increase above what they already planned for. Baghram I believe is about 60 klicks from Kabul, no way to get people there.

no way whatsoever, nope. With all the technological advances, maybe someday we’ll have a way to transport humans that distance.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Sure, because in Kabul you have bus transports for 120,000 people just ready to go. I guess they could have called Greyhound :huh:

Don't mess with his outrage, he is hot and rolling out the narratives he likes to hear.

so why are so many military experts saying we should
have held onto Baghram? none of them thought the logistics through?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

you’re not outraged? everyone else is stupid but you.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim where is the Answer how many more American was the Republican Party willing to loose to save the 100 people they are now complaining have been left behind ?

Once again they want to have both ways, the biggest baddest military with out the bad parts Death of our troops

From 2006 tru 2020 5600 troops killed in accidents 2700 KIA. And 4200 self inflicted

but seeing dying from accidents isn’t big news like 13 killed a suicide attack the families are no less devastated

Yesterday 5 men are presumed dead after their chopper went down .. no outrage no screams of blood on ones Hands ! Accidents are preventable Deaths in combat are Not…


Some people need to rewatch saving Pvt Ryan .. and realize those marines and Corpsman were not victims of some botched operation .. they all joined and knew the risks and carried on their mission until they died . so 120 thousands didn’t have to… and then the next line of marines carried on doing the same job the next day they didn’t quit they stepped up.. unlike the Republican who chose to use their deaths as poltical props before then even came home.. disgusting


failed to criticize? What I explained why and how 1 plan withdrawal turned into evacuation
The current generals have said what I have said ..

No one is saying thing could have gone better , but better is never defined by those on the right it’s just a statement
Backed up with nonsense We could have just used bagrham which is 1.5 hour drive from the embassy we heard the same nonsense about Benghazi we could have sent marines from the main embassy 8 hrs away or we could have parachuted people in… bla bla bla and now Republicans want hearings Ya ok when the Republicans join the Jan 6th commission then they can try to act as if they care about Americans
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Jim who do you think planned the mission ! and the when and why to close that base ! it was the military experts ! not the arm chair experts on FOX or newsmax or Biden with a black sharpie

Do you hear yourself I trust the retired guy on TV over the actual General conducting the mission


Kinda like the vaccines don’t work but let me get some of that avermectin Logic
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Plenty of ex military being critical on MSNBC and CNN also, but as you said, they weren't doing the planning.

the generals who go on and on about the benefits of diversity? Sorry, wearing a uniform doesn't bestow infallability.

The "experts" (military and civilian) get good grades for the total number of people they got out, and they get a big, fat, well-deserved F for how horribly the last few days were managed.

"Kinda like the vaccines don’t work"

I never said anything that stupid. Fully vaccinated. Kinda like saying "defund the police".

Hindsight is always 20/20. Looking back, it sure would have been nice if we had access to a safe, secure airfield during the last few days. As GS said, it was guaranteed to descend into chaos, which again, makes it more critical to have had Baghram.

Maybe they should have been doing the planning. The people doing the planning, bungled the last few days (but did a good job getting so many out before). That's not just the opinion of the biased right. It's the opinion of everyone not among the biased left. You guys, as always, can't see it, because none of you can say anything critical about any democrat. NEVER.

I don't see the military planners as being that political. They were given a policy decision by Trump (i.e. surrender to terrorists rather than broker an enforceable peace deal) that was essentially non-reversible. Granted, Biden campaigned on getting out also, but the military planners were just crafting a mission to execute policy and they were working from some bad assumptions.

The Taliban were going to take over regardless, it just happened much faster than anticipated. Amazing how our troops responded to get so many out so fast without massive carnage, not to diminish those that died in the one bombing.

Really Obama just made this war worse, happy now?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

trumps deal was conditions based, was it not? why was it non reversible? so many other trump policies were overturned.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Not really, it had some barely measurable concessions the Taliban weren't meeting under Trump even and by the time Biden took office most of the US troops had already left. I'm not sure how we could have put up an effective defense when the Afghan troops didn't want to fight and the Taliban had all the momentum.

yes it was condition based and Trump released 5000 prisoners as a condition . without consulting the Afghan Government .. could have Biden reversed it of course he could of then This agreement was no executive order. then move the goal posts again to he said but didn't he promised to leave.


But I am still waiting on those who are complaining that 100 citizens are left in country .. both republican and Democratic! How many US service Members are they willing to lose to get them out ? because clearly 13 marines was to many to get 125k out ..

But even if no marines lost their lives the message would be the same...

“barely measurable”.

one condition stated the taliban had to enter a peaceful, mutually agreed upon deal with the afghan government. that’s not “barely measurable”.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.axi...51bd47ed6.html

Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Why didn't Trump enforce that before drawing down troops?

here's what honesty looks like Spence (honesty that you are incapable of)...

that's a good question (that's a statement you are incapable of making to a conservative). From what I saw, the agreement was supposed to be in place by the time we withdrew completely. Trump wasn't president when we withdrew completely.

Hindsight is always 20/20, and it's not fair to expect anyone to be clairvoyant. BUT here is what common sense tells me, they should have done.

You hold onto Bagram. It was built with defendability in mind, and they had many years to fortify it and figure out how to make it safe.

While (1) things are still stable, and (2) you are evacuating huge numbers of people, you use Kabul, as long as it's safe. But you hold onto Bagram, in case you need it. You plan for contingencies (at least, those of us not suffering from dementia plan for contingencies).
Got Stripers said many times here, that it was inevitable that things would descend into a "fall of Saigon" chaos, so if that was forseable, it follows that the Kabul airport would be impossible to function. By the time things go south, you don't have nearly as many people left to get out, and for sure you can get some of them out via Bagram.

The videos of the last days at the airport...you could look at the entirety of global military history, and not be able to find a more dangerous position to put 20 year-old E1s and E2s in. There is literally zero security, and I mean n-o-n-e. You have absolutely no idea of who is standing next to you.

i think the administration did a heck of a job getting so many out in the last month, they absolutely deserve credit for that. They also could not have done worse, preparing for, and managing, the last few days. I don't know how he could have done worse, unless Biden accidentally sat on the nuclear button and nuked the whole country.

As Got Stripers said, anyone could have seen the chaos at the end. We could not have been less prepared. The plan was "go out there and deal with the mob as best you can, and pray that no jihadists are walking among the mob". That was the best plan they could come up with.

As the liberal progressive democrat congressman Seth Moulton from Massachusetts said, it was preventable. It probably wasn't all preventable, but it could have been planned much, much better.

And for Biden to explicitly promise we'd stay until everyone was out and then to so completely walk away from that promise...at a minimum, he has earned the loss of serious trust. That's what happens when you make a promise and then you choose to break it. That emboldens our enemies, and will obviously make anyone think twice about sticking their necks out to help us.

In 2008, there was a senate delegation on a helicopter in Afghanistan, they had to set down in unsafe area during heavy snow. A Blackwater team, along with an Afghan interpreter, walked to them and led them to safety. Senator Joe Biden was on that helicopter. The interpreter who risked his life to rescue Biden, is still there, begging to have he and his family brought out.

Some loyalty.

Sounds simple
Hindsight is 20/20
No matter what scenario occurred at some point there would have been a mob looking to get out and as long as you were letting some in the dangerous interface is there.
That’s why suicide bombers are so dangerous and hard to prevent.
As far as Bagram goes it’s a two hour drive from Kabul which is the population center
You have now increased the perimeter you have to defend by 70 miles or more
In addition the Taliban and ISIS-K are attacking
Pretty much means you have 10K Americans back in, spread out and in harms way.
It’s over, we’re out, just like the end of anything it’s not pretty.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

If we were so ill prepared how did so many get evacuated? Biden and the military did good in light of how the Afghans just rolled over and while I said any end of war pull out is likely to be chaotic, it’s always going to be fluid and nobody expected what happened. Hey thanking loyalty, what about Trump leaving our Kurd allies behind and turning over our facilities to the Russians, you dodged that point before. Fake outrage is partisan.

On a side note on loyalty, seems Kevin is picking up right where Trump left off, threatening companies if they comply with supenas; loyal to the new leader of the far right.

Again, work on your comprehension. They got many out before it all went south.

Are you denying that we were caught off guard at the very end? Even Biden is saying they had no expectation that the Taliban would seize control that quickly.

If we were fully prepared, why did we pull out before we got everyone out, therefore breaking Biden's promise?

Man, oh, man, you guys are something. Everything was perfect.

Pete -

you're right, Bagram was too far away.

Better to use just one focal point, a major population center, and create a tightly packed mob all in one place. That makes it impossible for, say, one idiot with a suicide backpack to murder 150 people who are all within 25 feet of him. Which is why no one was hurt at the Kabul airport, all the suicide bombers were walking the roads between Kabul and Bagram.

If the threat was a large scale attack from the Taliban, you'd have a point. That wasn't the threat. The threat was lone jihadists. You do the lone jihadist a favor by telling the world that everyone is going to be in one place, especially when that one place is impossible to secure.

By the way, to all the Biden apologists who claim there was no way to kno wwhat was going to happen...

Reuters just released the transcript of a call President Biden had on July 23 with Afghani president Ghani (the guy we hand-picked, who fled the country without telling anyone he was leaving)...in that call Biden said "the perception...is that things are not going well in terms of the fight against the Taliban, and there is a need... to project a different picture"

Now, that necessarily means that President Biden had knowledge 5 weeks ago, that things were deteriorating. And still, we had no contingency plan, our only hope was an orderly mass exodus from a civilian airport, we had no backup plan in the event that went south.

5 weeks...we had 5 weeks notice.

And AFTER that call, Biden repeatedly told the nation that everything was OK, that there was no reason to believe our withdrawal wouldn't go as planned.

Now, if I claimed that Biden misled us, how would i be wrong, exactly?


That call happened. Read the transcript.

IT'S ALL TRUMPS FAULT!!

just imagine...it's not hard...because we've been treated to plenty...what the spin and rhetoric would be if trump was still in office and what the media narrative would be and you'll realize how ridiculous these guys are ....:rolleyes:

just be grateful biden got operation warp speed going so he could get everyone vaccinated with the vaccine he once seriously questioned which no one should now ever question...it's like that

In all your post and most talking heads love to leave out the elephant in the room

The Afghan Army 20yr trained and equipped 300 thousand of them just said F it .

And now Americans are seeing all that equipment on Parade many thinking we left it behind

So let’s talk about honesty

If you want to be honest , start the conversation there. Because that’s when the withdrawal turned into an evacuation.

And instead of having 1 location surrounded by the Taliban you would have had multiple areas surrounded by the Taliban..

And the need to re supply and evac with already limited resources in aircraft and more boots on the ground equal greater risks ..

But iam still waiting for an answer to my questions how much additional blood aka troops are those complaining about the 100 or so Americans left in Afghanistan willing to loose to get them out.


And it’s funny Republicans suddenly are just calling them Americans

But if they saw them on the street they Would be labeled something else Terrorist !
Funny how that works
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Love your logic Jim spread it out no suicide bombers lol

I guess you for got about a little thing called an a IED they get placed on roads dirt paths you name it ..
Did you know
IEDs and Suicide bombers are the #1 killer of Americans.

Yet 120 thousand plus people got out and tragically 13 service members died Like I’ve said conservatives love war just not the dying part

But I get it .. imaginary outcomes are always preferred by conservatives .. ask the pillow guy
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

if you were a line suicide bomber, a guy with a backpack, kindly tell me which scenario you’d prefer…

a municipal airport that’s the only airport being used, with no security, no checkpoints, massive mobs of desperate people in a tight space.

or a us military airfield where the entrances and approaches are heavily guarded? and everyone approaching us in an armored vehicle?

no preference?

Bagram has been open for many years, with american vehicles coming and going, so it would seem they have some defenses in place against IEDs.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

You must have been good at dodge ball in gym, your fake outage is your response to my asking why Trump gets a pass on the Kurd allies being abandoned.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

yes the afghan army said f it. but my point, which you ignored, is that biden knew this was happening back in july, but told the country everything was proceeding in a way that would allow the final withdrawal to take place as planned.

you either intentionally ignored that, or you can’t grasp it. there isn’t a third possibility.

i never denied the afghan army blew this.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device