Wayne, the gun is an inanimate object. It doesn't do anything on its own, it cannot do anything on its own. I am very sorry if that simple truth upsets you, and equally sorry if it doesn't paint your agenda in a positive light. But that's your problem,. not mine. What I said is true, and it's not an inherently partisan fact. Facts don't care about party.

Your post was long on insults, short on logic and facts.

There's much of the 1950s I'd never want to return to (mostly due to your side engaging in brutal racism and segregation). But in terms of family units, and the way we cared about each other? Light years better than today. Again, don't take my word, look at the data in terms of divorce rates, fatherlessness rates, etc...

The people who make up the GOP are as flawed as the people who make up the democrat side, it seems no matter how many times I say that, it still goes over your head, it's beyond your grasp. The policies each side supports, are not similar. Your side doesn't like the idea of requiring medical care for babies born alive. That speaks for itself, 1 of 210 democrats in the house supported that bill. One. Good luck with that.

Montana and Wyoming lead the nation in gun ownership, but rates of gun murder per 100k residents aren't abnormally high.

If I was wrong and you were right, states with highest gun ownership would have the highest rates of gun murders, wouldn't they? But they don't. Not even close. Look at the data. Just because you'll hate the data, doesn't make it wrong.

You do realize that Wyoming and Montana are mostly empty space right?

I do.

You do realize that murder rates per 100k citizens (as opposed to the absolute number of murders) normalize for differences in population density, right?

Are you saying that something besides gun ownership (eg, population density, and perhaps the socioeconomics of the population) are also factors in expected murders? Not just the presence of a gun?

If so, I agree.

The prevalence of guns obviously plays a role. Our lack of humanity also plays a role. Our complete inability to deal with mental illness plays a role. Lack of dads plays an enormous role if you're talking about typical urban violence, which claims far more lives than mass shootings, but those get way more press coverage because they serve the media's lefty narrative.

Spence, we don't agree on a single thing. You name it, we disagree on it. But if you owned 25 guns, you'd never hurt anybody. The presence of a gun in your home, doesn't change the fact that you're a decent guy. Having a gun, wouldn't turn you into a sociopath. The underlying problem therefore, is us, a darkness that seems to be getting a little worse over time. That's the fire. The prevalence of guns is a fuel thrown on the fire. If it were the gun, Montana and Wyoming would lead the nation in murder rates. There's a reason why they don't. The reason might not serve your political agenda, but it's still the reason. Fewer dark souls.

There are more guns out there today than there are people, I think. And we have a constitution with a second amendment. The guns play a role, but there are other levers we can pull.

The right refuses to budge on guns. The left refuses to discuss our cultural sicknesses. So absolutely nothing gets done, and the bodies pile up. And both sides continue to elect jerks who can't compromise or be honest.

I can't compete with such a simpleton who can't do any research this literally was top of my search using your words

Mississippi, Wyoming, Louisiana, Alaska, Missouri, and Alabama Have Highest Gun Death Rates in the Nation; Hawaii, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Rhode Island, and New York Have Lowest Gun Death Rates in the Nation


https://vpc.org/states-with-weak-gun...caAnwTEALw_wcB



Also Gun ownership by state Highest Rate

Montana (66.30%) of 500 thousand residents
Lowest Rate
Massachusetts (14.70%) of 7 million


which state has more Guns :eek:

The right refuses to budge on guns. and refuses to admit Guns are our cultural sicknesses.


fixed it

Gun Death Rate and Gun Murder Rate are two different things.

https://www.criminalattorneycincinna...ides-by-state/


Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

2 sources that show gun murder rates by state, have WY much lower. Not sure where your data comes from, but it says gun deaths, which would include suicide, which are a big % of gun deaths, but aren't applicable when talking about violent crime.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/states-hi...ders-data-show

https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...crime-us-state

Look at rates of divorce by decade, rates of fatherlessness. Any social scientist will say there's a direct correlation to violence with young boys especially. But you know better than everyone. Good for you.

"which state has more Guns "

What matters when comparing states, is ownership rates. Not the absolute number of guns, Einstein. If you took a math class you'd know that. But keep distorting the data to fit your preferred narrative.

I saw on CNN today that some of the 5 Memphis cops were hired after the city lowered its hiring guidelines to promote diversity. I'm sure that makes the victim's parents feel a lot better!

With many professions, diversity should get zero weight, competence gets 100% weight. Not a lot of short white people in the NBA, so as unimportant as that is, a meritocracy is OK. But not with cops, firefighters, doctors, teachers, etc. Makes all kinds of sense. it just makes SO MUCH sense. The town of Hamden CT just put out a proposal to lower the physical requirements to be a firefighter, sop they could hire more women. Awesome. Just so brilliant.

Why would you want to include suicide in gun statistics?
Because they increase the number.
Waiting periods decrease suicide by gun numbers.
No, it doesn’t just make other methods go up to achieve the same total.
Ask anyone who lost a family member to suicide with a gun if they think it’s violent.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

suicide is important to discuss. it’s laughable to lump it in with murder.

You find suicide funny, you’re sicker than I thought
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

i said “suicide is important”. what i said was funny, is that liberals would lump suicides in with murders, to bolster their anti gun push.

Sorry that went over your head and that you couldn’t differentiate between two very different things.

So suicide is acceptable
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

(1) Nooooo. Can you please tell us how in Gods name you read what I wrote, and concluded that I said suicide is acceptable? That's quite a leap.

(2) generally speaking, liberals are way more OK with suicide and assisted suicide, than conservatives. Are you saying liberals are wrong that issue? That suicide is bad and not to be accepted? Sounds like that's what you are saying.

(3) what I said, is that suicide and murder are 2 very different things. They are both tragic to me as a catholic, but they are obviously very different.

You are humiliating yourself. Were you the kid in middle school who ate bugs so that other kids would notice you? Sorry for that.

2 very different things. There you go again, injecting common sense and logic into a good liberal, foaming-at-the-mouth, howling-at-the-moon, rant.

Since you’re so concerned about life.

In the United States, suicides outnumber homicides almost two to one. Perhaps the real tragedy behind suicide deaths—about 30,000 a year, one for every 45 attempts—is that so many could be prevented. Research shows that whether attempters live or die depends in large part on the ready availability of highly lethal means, especially firearms.

How’s your goat?
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

Which is exactly why you need to exclude suicides when you're making a case about the danger guns cause to innocent victims. Including them, meaningfully distorts the data.

Thank you for proving my point.

Jim you have no point you didn’t read past Fox’s headline they were comparing

Fox News Digital compiled FBI data from 2019 detailing murders and gun murders per 100,000 population. The data show that many states with higher percentages of gun ownership had lower or similar murder and gun murder rates to states with strict gun control

None of your 2 sources came close to a separations that shows gun murder rates compared to other murders by state. Or by numbers.

You misrepresented the whole article it wasn’t just gun murders as you claimed

Yep once again moving the goal post. Now gun death and murder by gun is some how different … even you links disprove you claim

Jim you said the pope said war wasn’t murder but the Bible states suicide is murder .

So if with The state with the highest per capita gun death rate in 2020 was Mississippi, followed by Wyoming, You want to run with the Fox News and conservatives conflating murder and Gun murder to defend gun ownership and guns aren’t to blame.

But of course using yours and dads and Fox News logic
The child who shot the teacher if she had died fallen in the gun death rate not murder Guns kill more U.S. kids than cancer. 8-year-old accidentally shot, killed by sibling who was playing with gun,

But that falls under gun deaths not murder…. More twisted logic is acceptable for the conservatives and the 2a and Fox. to admit guns are the problem in American culture

Here’s an example of Conservatives fixing the Gun Culture in Florida

TALLAHASSEE — Calling the right to bear arms “central to our freedom,” House Speaker Paul Renner on Monday unveiled a bill removing Florida requirements for a permit and training to carry concealed guns, an idea endorsed by Gov. Ron DeSantis.

Another campaign ad for 2024

In 2021, Arizona, Iowa, Montana, Tennessee, Texas and Utah enacted laws allowing permitless carry, and, last year, Alabama, Georgia, Indiana and Ohio did, too.

Each state listed rate extremely high to high. in Gun deaths that Firearm deaths include all deaths involving guns, such as homicide, suicide, and accidents.

Funny I have my license to carry in Liberal Massachusetts Iam not against gun ownership just stupid gun ownership like the states listed above.. Hell guns now almost kill more people than cars but we haven’t stopped driving schools learners permits a driving test insurance and licenses

But with guns. the NRA Rewrote the Second Amendment

Many are startled to learn that the U.S. Supreme Court didn’t rule that the Second Amendment guarantees an individual’s right to own a gun until 2008. The Second Amendment is, without doubt, among the best efforts at melding constitutional history and constitutional law on any topic — at least since the modern revival of originalism..

So you’re in favor of ignoring suicides by not imposing waiting periods for firearms purchases.
It’s all part of saving lives by gun control.
And certainly the low hanging fruit.
Posted from my iPhone/Mobile device

both sources showed that the rate of gun murders in Wyoming is below the national average, despite gun ownership being high there.

Either you can't grasp it, of you don't want to grasp it, but that's what it shows.

You have to exclude suicides. I'm assuming your data doesn't do that. I posted two different sources that showed that gun murder rates in Wyoming are below the national average.

I think accidents should be included. Not suicides.

If the biggest issue were guns, WY would have a re-enactment of the OK corral every day. They don't. The guns aren't making anybody do anything.

Look I think there's a very unhealthy amount of guns out there, I think it's a big part of the problem. But it's nowhere near as big a contributor as our willingness to hurt each other. That's basic common sense. We also have constitutional limitations, at least if you care about the republic. I don't want the current party in charge, no matter who it is, being able to decide what they think the constitution means. It is what it says it is, and if we don't like it, we can change it, there's a mechanism to do that.